Wolf 3D My Tuning
02-28-06 | 06:54 AM
#52
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: North Queensland Australia
Originally Posted by RotorMotor2
ok i see what your saying.
what about my last picture below that should work also right? and what about the wolf boost controller fluttering the silinoid valve to limit the airflow through it? wouldnt that be like a restrictor?
on another note, anybody want to help me anwer some of my other questions previously posted?
thanks,
Jeremy
what about my last picture below that should work also right? and what about the wolf boost controller fluttering the silinoid valve to limit the airflow through it? wouldnt that be like a restrictor?
on another note, anybody want to help me anwer some of my other questions previously posted?
thanks,
Jeremy
Cheers
Michael Smith
02-28-06 | 11:19 AM
#53
Passenger
Posts: n/a
ok i get the vacume hose routing but can you briefly describe 2 things to me, #1, how it would creep one way but not overboost and how it can not creep the other way but over boost (like the process of the pressure and valves) and #2 what you mean by manifold vs turbo, like the time it takes to fill the intercooler and get to the engine then build pressure backward to the turbo? like the pressure gets high at the manifold first then the turbo so i should put the line there? Thanks Michael,
Jeremy
Jeremy
03-01-06 | 12:15 AM
#54
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi Jeremy,
[QUOTE=RotorMotor2]You mean good quality gas like 93 octane? so i would have to take this into consideration when tuning?
>>>>> Yes, you will need to tune for the quality of fuel you will be using normally, and will want a seperate map for anything else you decide to use, just try not to use Avgas...
could the waste spark be getting in the way here and i am reading that instead of the right one (what degree does waste spark fire?)
>>>>>???? Check out the diagram in the wolf installation manual (section 4.3.6) for how a dual output coil physically fires. In our rotary application, the dual output coil normally used for the leading ign will provide spark to both leading sparkplugs (leading1, 2), at the same time. But at any one time, only one of these sparkplugs will be in a chamber that has a combustable mixture, the other is "wasted" in the chamber that has already been fired... basically the leading coil fires twice as often as each of the trailing coils... and because of this, it is extremely important to make sure you have lots of spark power available from the coil to make sure the chamber fires at the first spark, you do not want the "wasted" spark to light off a misfired chamber... try using just a set of plain stock ignition wires when you are checking the timing and then re-install your good ones for the high power runs this way you get the most accuracy out of your timing light...
I will double check the wiring polarity and change this durring swap..
>>>>>I have not had a chance to follow up with the factory manual, and according to George's map, he is not using the factory sensors (what is Michael using?), so if you can find some one with an ignition scope or equivalant you can varify the sensor output, but it is a good pratice to recheck everything after an engine failure, before changing anything...
yeah, you have to have the laptop connected to the ecu in "online" mode to see the second folder.
>>>>> Okay, got it... I do not have the laptop to ecu interface cable for mine yet, all I received was the cartridge patch cable and did not realise right away that I would not be able to even program the ecu with the hand control...
Dont be troubled, i am human and made a TYPO ha ha i meant to say L1 and NOT T1. my mistake, moderator change that for me! ha ha (Thread - Zeroing the wolf - #57)
>>>>>I try not to assume...
hmm seems to me this should be the opposite, like if it got grounded (accident) or such then it should turn the fuel pump off..... but i guess it makes sense that if i ground the CAS that it makes the ecu think that the engine is running and the FP turns on, but then why doesent my engine flood with the injectors firing or my spark plugs fire? needs more imput from the other CAS?
hmm well can you check this on your car? or anybody? just use a screwdriver and touch it to your upper CAS and the timing wheel at the same time to make an electrical connection and see if it turns your fuel pump on....... thanks
>>>>> Well it is not so much the actual grounding that does it is the signal impulses the ecu receives that cause the ecu to turn on the fuel pump... again it goes back to verifing the wiring...
i will shield the CAS wires when i do my swap, any suggestions? stainless braid?
also i will change the voltage level, any suggestions?
only blew one motor on the wolf.
>>>>> when providing shielding for sensitive wires, first off make sure that the wires in question are as far from high power wires or componants (e.g. ign wires, alternator and associated wires, injector and coil power wires, etc). Next use shielding that is coated (so an alternat grounding point can not occur), and only ground one end of it, just for grins make sure the stock wolf shielded harness shielding wire is only grounded at the ecu end...
Again I hope this helps...
Gregg
[QUOTE=RotorMotor2]You mean good quality gas like 93 octane? so i would have to take this into consideration when tuning?
>>>>> Yes, you will need to tune for the quality of fuel you will be using normally, and will want a seperate map for anything else you decide to use, just try not to use Avgas...
could the waste spark be getting in the way here and i am reading that instead of the right one (what degree does waste spark fire?)
>>>>>???? Check out the diagram in the wolf installation manual (section 4.3.6) for how a dual output coil physically fires. In our rotary application, the dual output coil normally used for the leading ign will provide spark to both leading sparkplugs (leading1, 2), at the same time. But at any one time, only one of these sparkplugs will be in a chamber that has a combustable mixture, the other is "wasted" in the chamber that has already been fired... basically the leading coil fires twice as often as each of the trailing coils... and because of this, it is extremely important to make sure you have lots of spark power available from the coil to make sure the chamber fires at the first spark, you do not want the "wasted" spark to light off a misfired chamber... try using just a set of plain stock ignition wires when you are checking the timing and then re-install your good ones for the high power runs this way you get the most accuracy out of your timing light...
I will double check the wiring polarity and change this durring swap..
>>>>>I have not had a chance to follow up with the factory manual, and according to George's map, he is not using the factory sensors (what is Michael using?), so if you can find some one with an ignition scope or equivalant you can varify the sensor output, but it is a good pratice to recheck everything after an engine failure, before changing anything...
yeah, you have to have the laptop connected to the ecu in "online" mode to see the second folder.
>>>>> Okay, got it... I do not have the laptop to ecu interface cable for mine yet, all I received was the cartridge patch cable and did not realise right away that I would not be able to even program the ecu with the hand control...
Dont be troubled, i am human and made a TYPO ha ha i meant to say L1 and NOT T1. my mistake, moderator change that for me! ha ha (Thread - Zeroing the wolf - #57)
>>>>>I try not to assume...
hmm seems to me this should be the opposite, like if it got grounded (accident) or such then it should turn the fuel pump off..... but i guess it makes sense that if i ground the CAS that it makes the ecu think that the engine is running and the FP turns on, but then why doesent my engine flood with the injectors firing or my spark plugs fire? needs more imput from the other CAS?
hmm well can you check this on your car? or anybody? just use a screwdriver and touch it to your upper CAS and the timing wheel at the same time to make an electrical connection and see if it turns your fuel pump on....... thanks
>>>>> Well it is not so much the actual grounding that does it is the signal impulses the ecu receives that cause the ecu to turn on the fuel pump... again it goes back to verifing the wiring...
i will shield the CAS wires when i do my swap, any suggestions? stainless braid?
also i will change the voltage level, any suggestions?
only blew one motor on the wolf.
>>>>> when providing shielding for sensitive wires, first off make sure that the wires in question are as far from high power wires or componants (e.g. ign wires, alternator and associated wires, injector and coil power wires, etc). Next use shielding that is coated (so an alternat grounding point can not occur), and only ground one end of it, just for grins make sure the stock wolf shielded harness shielding wire is only grounded at the ecu end...
Again I hope this helps...
Gregg
03-01-06 | 12:50 AM
#55
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi Jeremy,
#1, how it would creep one way but not overboost and how it can not creep the other way but over boost (like the process of the pressure and valves) and #2
Thanks Michael,
Jeremy
Trying not to step on Michael's toes here, the term boost creep is used to discribe the condition that occurs when the actual waste gate is physically too small to dump (bypass around the turbo), the high volume of exhaust gas coming out of the engine, thus causing the turbo to continue to increase boost pressure (at a reduced rate- thus the boost continues to "creep" up), even though the waste gate is wide open, this is why it is strongly suggested if not demanded to use a properly matched aftermarket wastegate (or modify the stock wastegate on the stock turbo-s), when used on modified engines...
You can get "boost creep " - like symptoms if the controlling system lags behind or is too slow in reacting to rapid pressure rises.
sorry for poking in Michael...
Gregg
Originally Posted by RotorMotor2
#1, how it would creep one way but not overboost and how it can not creep the other way but over boost (like the process of the pressure and valves) and #2
Thanks Michael,
Jeremy
Trying not to step on Michael's toes here, the term boost creep is used to discribe the condition that occurs when the actual waste gate is physically too small to dump (bypass around the turbo), the high volume of exhaust gas coming out of the engine, thus causing the turbo to continue to increase boost pressure (at a reduced rate- thus the boost continues to "creep" up), even though the waste gate is wide open, this is why it is strongly suggested if not demanded to use a properly matched aftermarket wastegate (or modify the stock wastegate on the stock turbo-s), when used on modified engines...
You can get "boost creep " - like symptoms if the controlling system lags behind or is too slow in reacting to rapid pressure rises.
sorry for poking in Michael...
Gregg
03-03-06 | 07:56 AM
#57
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: North Queensland Australia
We are all here to help no problems Gregg. Actually the creep I was aiming at was early creep that is when the pressure starts to rise the wastegate starts to open causing less exhaust to your turbine. Now the wastegate has no pressure becasue the soleniod is letting out the boost before it gets to the wastegate. Now some boost contollers watch the boost with its own sensor and only closes the soleniod just before the required boost pressure, and then the duty cycle keeps the boost at the required level. Now if the boost contoller fails and the soleniod never closes you have a over boost situation. Now back to the Wolf.
The Wolf uses from what I can tell is a duty cycle control all the time to control boost, it doesn't wait until just before full boost. This could be changed in software later but I think it is designed this way to make sure the soleniod is always in use and will not stick.
Ok back to Plumbing imagine you have a very restictive intercooler it has a pressure drop of 3 psi at WOT and 6000 rpm.... if you turbo puts out 9 psi you only get 6psi at your engine. Now at low rpm the flow is less and the pressure drop is much less. You ever hear of people complaining of boost droping off at high rpm??? The boost guage is in the manifold the waste gate is plumbed to the turbo.,,can you see that you would see your boost drop to 6 psi?? You should never have such a restrictive cooler but at higher boost even good coolers have pressure drop. If you plumb your pressure line at the manifold before it enters the butterflies you will have 9psi even if you have 3 psi loss in your intercooler because you are taking this into account and the turbo is pumping out 12psi and losing 3 psi in the cooler. The catch is if your runner lenght between the turbo and manifold is long you can have problems with hunting.
I hope I haven't confused everbody.
You basically need to work out whats best for you!!!!
Michael Smith
The Wolf uses from what I can tell is a duty cycle control all the time to control boost, it doesn't wait until just before full boost. This could be changed in software later but I think it is designed this way to make sure the soleniod is always in use and will not stick.
Ok back to Plumbing imagine you have a very restictive intercooler it has a pressure drop of 3 psi at WOT and 6000 rpm.... if you turbo puts out 9 psi you only get 6psi at your engine. Now at low rpm the flow is less and the pressure drop is much less. You ever hear of people complaining of boost droping off at high rpm??? The boost guage is in the manifold the waste gate is plumbed to the turbo.,,can you see that you would see your boost drop to 6 psi?? You should never have such a restrictive cooler but at higher boost even good coolers have pressure drop. If you plumb your pressure line at the manifold before it enters the butterflies you will have 9psi even if you have 3 psi loss in your intercooler because you are taking this into account and the turbo is pumping out 12psi and losing 3 psi in the cooler. The catch is if your runner lenght between the turbo and manifold is long you can have problems with hunting.
I hope I haven't confused everbody.
You basically need to work out whats best for you!!!!
Michael Smith
03-14-06 | 02:04 PM
#58
Passenger
Posts: n/a
06-29-06 | 04:17 PM
#59
Passenger
Posts: n/a
blown motor
06-30-06 | 07:04 AM
#62
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: North Queensland Australia
Originally Posted by RotorMotor2
here:
Ouch ...mate that must have hurt!!!! How far did you drive it? I drove mine 5 Km and didn't have 1/5 of that damage. Sorry mate I feel for you been there done that...not as bad though.
Michael Smith
10-31-06 | 12:56 AM
#64
Passenger
Posts: n/a
on the road again....
well i have a new engine with all new seals and springs and used housings and new bearings and comp oil pressure reg,
well anyways, i tuned it much more and this is what i drove to LA on (350 miles each way to sevenstock9!!!) what do you think,
my egt's stayed at 1400F @ 30 load when cruising and most all of the trip (after i added 7 overall trim on the timing and fuel) @ 34 load it did get a little warm durring cruising with 1480F both at about 3,000-3,400 RPM......
it starts fine when cold and after 5-10min off when it is heat soaked but only if i start it this way: with foot off throttle crank 2 revolutions then full throttle for 1 sec then back off to hold idle for a few seconds till the water pump spins fluid to the sensor........ any suggestions?
other than that, it runs smoooth!
well anyways, i tuned it much more and this is what i drove to LA on (350 miles each way to sevenstock9!!!) what do you think,
my egt's stayed at 1400F @ 30 load when cruising and most all of the trip (after i added 7 overall trim on the timing and fuel) @ 34 load it did get a little warm durring cruising with 1480F both at about 3,000-3,400 RPM......
it starts fine when cold and after 5-10min off when it is heat soaked but only if i start it this way: with foot off throttle crank 2 revolutions then full throttle for 1 sec then back off to hold idle for a few seconds till the water pump spins fluid to the sensor........ any suggestions?
other than that, it runs smoooth!
11-02-06 | 09:56 AM
#65
Passenger
Posts: n/a
bump for above and also, how lean can i tune my cruising load bands, like 25-40 load bands, mainly 30 load where i am at most the time when i am cruising on the freeway...... 14:1 afr? how hot can i get my superseals before its dangerous? (under cruise) ....
11-06-06 | 02:38 AM
#66
Passenger
Posts: n/a
?
BUMP anybody? man sometimes this section of the fourm is busy and sometimes its dead, well i made some changes with the timing and with the fuel and took away the overall enrichment and overall timing i used temporarely for sevenstock and i also lowered my starting fuel pulse add on and added a silinoid to my output 2 in order to make a vacume leak if the rpms drop below 1000 in order to help warmup and to help idle when A/C is on and or electrical load, what do you think? also what do you think about the timing and the fuel maps? and the acc enrichments and decay and stuff? also bump about last posts about temps?
11-06-06 | 08:25 AM
#67
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,580
Likes: 567
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
I'm not a tuner, but based on what I've read/observed, you can cruise at around 14.5 to 15.0 to 1. Also, I wouldn't let the EGTs get above 1500 under any circumstances. My peak EGTs after a 4th gear redline pull at 17 psi are 1400 ish, cruising tends to stay around 1000 or so.
11-06-06 | 02:59 PM
#68
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: North Queensland Australia
Originally Posted by RotorMotor2
BUMP anybody? man sometimes this section of the fourm is busy and sometimes its dead, well i made some changes with the timing and with the fuel and took away the overall enrichment and overall timing i used temporarely for sevenstock and i also lowered my starting fuel pulse add on and added a silinoid to my output 2 in order to make a vacume leak if the rpms drop below 1000 in order to help warmup and to help idle when A/C is on and or electrical load, what do you think? also what do you think about the timing and the fuel maps? and the acc enrichments and decay and stuff? also bump about last posts about temps?
. A very interesting approach to a common problem. With the soleniod open what rpm does the car idle at? btw ignition at 43% might need some work near idle/cranking just my opinion.Cheers
Michael Smith
11-07-06 | 12:31 AM
#69
Passenger
Posts: n/a
Michael:
"You are using idle speed control?"
No, I cannot use the mazda idle speed controller because I have a cosmo engine in my car, plus its bulky and not necessary, i have simply taken a regular silinoid and connected it to my aux 2 output and told aux 2 to make a vacume leak if the rpms drop below 970 and then close the leak if RPM is above 980, with no electrical load or no A/C my idle is steady as a rock at 1050. even when the cooling fans kick on it goes to 985-1000, BUT it is when my A/C is on that it wants to go to 400-600 and that is why i made the "leaker" when A/C is on and the leaker, it idles at about 850 which is fine by me, also if you let the RPMs drop suddenly under any condition the leaker definately helps out (and i have my dashpot screwed all the way max)
"btw ignition at 43% might need some work near idle/cranking just my opinion."
what would you do with it and why? I did not tune this map but i am helping Brian Rebello @ Rebello racing with advice from these fourms. so you say from 0-1000 rpm or 0-1200 rpm at 42% load (44 is 0psi for me) you would have more or less timing? and why? just curious....
GoodfellaFD3S:
My egts on the way to L.A. was @ 1400° F @ 30% load and about 3300 rpm is where i was cruising at most of the time, timing at that point was 27.1° and fuel was about 4.048 ms with 850cc dont know AFR because my WB was on the glitch, sending it off in the mail tomorrow for repair (innovate motorsports LM1)
"You are using idle speed control?"
No, I cannot use the mazda idle speed controller because I have a cosmo engine in my car, plus its bulky and not necessary, i have simply taken a regular silinoid and connected it to my aux 2 output and told aux 2 to make a vacume leak if the rpms drop below 970 and then close the leak if RPM is above 980, with no electrical load or no A/C my idle is steady as a rock at 1050. even when the cooling fans kick on it goes to 985-1000, BUT it is when my A/C is on that it wants to go to 400-600 and that is why i made the "leaker" when A/C is on and the leaker, it idles at about 850 which is fine by me, also if you let the RPMs drop suddenly under any condition the leaker definately helps out (and i have my dashpot screwed all the way max)
"btw ignition at 43% might need some work near idle/cranking just my opinion."
what would you do with it and why? I did not tune this map but i am helping Brian Rebello @ Rebello racing with advice from these fourms. so you say from 0-1000 rpm or 0-1200 rpm at 42% load (44 is 0psi for me) you would have more or less timing? and why? just curious....
GoodfellaFD3S:
My egts on the way to L.A. was @ 1400° F @ 30% load and about 3300 rpm is where i was cruising at most of the time, timing at that point was 27.1° and fuel was about 4.048 ms with 850cc dont know AFR because my WB was on the glitch, sending it off in the mail tomorrow for repair (innovate motorsports LM1)
11-07-06 | 03:03 AM
#70
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: North Queensland Australia
Originally Posted by RotorMotor2
Michael:
"You are using idle speed control?"
No, I cannot use the mazda idle speed controller because I have a cosmo engine in my car, plus its bulky and not necessary, i have simply taken a regular silinoid and connected it to my aux 2 output and told aux 2 to make a vacume leak if the rpms drop below 970 and then close the leak if RPM is above 980, with no electrical load or no A/C my idle is steady as a rock at 1050. even when the cooling fans kick on it goes to 985-1000, BUT it is when my A/C is on that it wants to go to 400-600 and that is why i made the "leaker" when A/C is on and the leaker, it idles at about 850 which is fine by me, also if you let the RPMs drop suddenly under any condition the leaker definately helps out (and i have my dashpot screwed all the way max)
"btw ignition at 43% might need some work near idle/cranking just my opinion."
what would you do with it and why? I did not tune this map but i am helping Brian Rebello @ Rebello racing with advice from these fourms. so you say from 0-1000 rpm or 0-1200 rpm at 42% load (44 is 0psi for me) you would have more or less timing? and why? just curious....
GoodfellaFD3S:
My egts on the way to L.A. was @ 1400° F @ 30% load and about 3300 rpm is where i was cruising at most of the time, timing at that point was 27.1° and fuel was about 4.048 ms with 850cc dont know AFR because my WB was on the glitch, sending it off in the mail tomorrow for repair (innovate motorsports LM1)
"You are using idle speed control?"
No, I cannot use the mazda idle speed controller because I have a cosmo engine in my car, plus its bulky and not necessary, i have simply taken a regular silinoid and connected it to my aux 2 output and told aux 2 to make a vacume leak if the rpms drop below 970 and then close the leak if RPM is above 980, with no electrical load or no A/C my idle is steady as a rock at 1050. even when the cooling fans kick on it goes to 985-1000, BUT it is when my A/C is on that it wants to go to 400-600 and that is why i made the "leaker" when A/C is on and the leaker, it idles at about 850 which is fine by me, also if you let the RPMs drop suddenly under any condition the leaker definately helps out (and i have my dashpot screwed all the way max)
"btw ignition at 43% might need some work near idle/cranking just my opinion."
what would you do with it and why? I did not tune this map but i am helping Brian Rebello @ Rebello racing with advice from these fourms. so you say from 0-1000 rpm or 0-1200 rpm at 42% load (44 is 0psi for me) you would have more or less timing? and why? just curious....
GoodfellaFD3S:
My egts on the way to L.A. was @ 1400° F @ 30% load and about 3300 rpm is where i was cruising at most of the time, timing at that point was 27.1° and fuel was about 4.048 ms with 850cc dont know AFR because my WB was on the glitch, sending it off in the mail tomorrow for repair (innovate motorsports LM1)
Ok your egt is fine I wouldn't go leaner. But with regards to 43% load from cranking say 350 rpm to 750 rpm I would retard the timing towards cranking timing because as the motor stalls it approaches 43% and as the rpm drops the volumetric efficiency drops and the rotor speed slows these sort of counter each other but VE has usually stopped by about 875 rpm meaning that we need to retard the timing to stop the fuel igniting before TDC as the fuel/air burn speed is now stable because VE is stable. This means as your rotor speed drops, 21 degrees would be too advanced and the full power of the ignition stroke will be before TDC causing at first knock and then it will help stall your engine. By retarding you timing will ensure the full power of each stroke is around TDC.
With a EGT of 1400 you will be about 14.6 - 14.8.
Cheers
Michael Smith
02-12-07 | 03:33 AM
#73
Passenger
Posts: n/a
Load move
ok, this if for the math gurus, i have tried but it isnt working, my previous load band was set to 16psi and i now moved it to 20psi which switched all the load bands, before i drive it i want to adjust my fuel and timing map to the new pressures and vacumes, my notes are rough but ask if you need help understanding it, i calculated the difference in the pressure changes in the old load into the new one turning it into a percent (decimal) and then tryed adding the same percent into the fuel map and it seemed correct as i started (at 0 load) and the more i went 7 then 14 ect... the more off it became..... what am i doing wrong?
i think you have to download my txt file and use notepad to view it correctly
i also attached my latest working map at the origional load 16psi
and then the example of the new map i tryed adding fuel to but wasnt working labeld not working
ps: i dynoed 250 to the wheels with the last working map labeled dyno @ 20 psi
i was hitting 9.0 afr lots..... i started with 160 RWHP but it got better.... need more dyno time but need to fix this first.... i want to keep my vacume AFR's how they are but need to adjust the map to do that with the new load bands.
i think you have to download my txt file and use notepad to view it correctly
i also attached my latest working map at the origional load 16psi
and then the example of the new map i tryed adding fuel to but wasnt working labeld not working
ps: i dynoed 250 to the wheels with the last working map labeled dyno @ 20 psi
i was hitting 9.0 afr lots..... i started with 160 RWHP but it got better.... need more dyno time but need to fix this first.... i want to keep my vacume AFR's how they are but need to adjust the map to do that with the new load bands.
02-14-07 | 02:57 AM
#75
Passenger
Posts: n/a
ok, i checked my timing agian and thought about it and realized that it was 20deg off !!! my input 1 trigger was at 60 and now it is at 45.7 or something like that, i solved the above math problem and got my new loads dialed in, and i am going to dyno this saturday @ $13 per pull (visit www.rotarytuner.com for details) and hopefully i will have another 100 hp freed up with the correct timing.