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Another interesting article about how the rotary is superior to the piston
#28
you're right, 6 hours and I doubt this girl followed the speed limit, but the point remains. She did not change one single oz. of fluids except for gas.
Last edited by phoenix7; 01-22-08 at 01:21 PM.
#29
#32
The little engine that could:
In 1991, Mazda became the first and only Japanese car manufacturer to win the vaunted 24 Hours of Le Mans endurance race. Mazda 787B cars finished in first, sixth and eighth positions.
The Mazda 787B was not supposed to win the 24 Hours of LeMans in 1991.
To say that the deck was stacked against it would be an understatement. LeMans in 1991 was to be an all-out war between Team Sauber Mercedes and the TWR Silk Cut Jaguars. In fact, no less than future 7-time Formula 1 World Champion, Michael Schumacher, as well as future Formula 1 driver Karl Wendlinger, were at the helm of the fastest Mercedes.
Jaguar pulled no punches either. Davy Jones, Raul Boesel, Bob Wallek, Derek Warwick and Andy Wallace were all tasked with bringing home LeMans glory for the English company – who brought no less than four cars to battle the three Sauber Mercedes.
Additionally, numerous privateer Porsche 962s, Spice-Cosworths, and factory-entered Peugeot 905s with what were essentially detuned Formula 1 V10 engines, meant the Mazda team was on no one's list to be a contender.
The three-pronged Mazda attack was spearheaded by the #55 787B, driven by Volker Weidler, Johnny Herbert, and Bertrand Gachot, and qualified a distant 19th overall. However, what the little 787B lacked in outright pace it made up for in fuel consumption – it didn't need nearly the fuel that the Jaguars and Mercedes required, while being able to stay somewhat on pace with the early leaders. The teams were only allotted a certain amount of fuel during the race, meaning that the blinding pace set by the fastest cars in practice would have to be tempered a bit during the race.
The Peugoets led away from the start at 3pm, but were quickly run down by the Sauber-Mercedes. With the TWR Jaguars either hitting trouble early, or not being able to match the pace of the Sauber-Mercedes, the Weidler/Herbert/Gachot 787B ran around in third, two laps behind – still in contention. It was unnoticed by nearly everybody.
"I kept seeing this bumble bee appear in my rearview mirror," said Davy Jones, one of the TWR Jaguar drivers, of the Mazda. "It appears behind, like a Mercedes…"
The Schumacher-wheeled Sauber-Mercedes went into the pits at 5 a.m. with transmission problems, moving the Mazda to second.
But in the 21st hour, with Jean-Lous Schlesser at the wheel, the leading Sauber-Mercedes was instructed to enter the pits –which it did, in a cloud of steam. A failed water pump belt meant game over for the Mercedes, and the Mazda, which had at this point been running in second, needed only ten minutes to take over the lead with two laps in hand over the Jones/Boesel/Ferte Jaguar.
As the minutes and hours ticked away, the French fans got into the spirit of the 787B becoming the first rotary-engined car to win the 24-hour race at le Circuit de la Sarthe. So distinctive was the sound of the 4-rotor Wankel, that every time the #55 787B came down the front straightaway, the fans would do a "Mazda wave"– keeping up with the car as it headed for LeMans glory.
Johnny Herbert, a future Formula 1 Grand Prix winner, was tasked with driving the final stint, and was so exhausted after crossing the finish line that when he emerged from the winning car, he collapsed on it. While Weidler and Gachot enjoyed the spoils of the podium ceremony, Herbert was receiving treatment at the track's care center!
1991 was the first, last, and only time that a Japanese car has won the 24 Hours of LeMans. The victory sealed the 787B's status as an icon with Mazda fans throughout the world. Mazda returned to LeMans in 1992 with a new car – the MXR-01 – and retained the lineup of Weidler/Herbert/Gachot, but was unable to recapture the magic with the new piston-engined car.
As such, the 1991 LeMans win remains Mazda's greatest accomplishment in motorsports.
The Mazda 787B was not supposed to win the 24 Hours of LeMans in 1991.
To say that the deck was stacked against it would be an understatement. LeMans in 1991 was to be an all-out war between Team Sauber Mercedes and the TWR Silk Cut Jaguars. In fact, no less than future 7-time Formula 1 World Champion, Michael Schumacher, as well as future Formula 1 driver Karl Wendlinger, were at the helm of the fastest Mercedes.
Jaguar pulled no punches either. Davy Jones, Raul Boesel, Bob Wallek, Derek Warwick and Andy Wallace were all tasked with bringing home LeMans glory for the English company – who brought no less than four cars to battle the three Sauber Mercedes.
Additionally, numerous privateer Porsche 962s, Spice-Cosworths, and factory-entered Peugeot 905s with what were essentially detuned Formula 1 V10 engines, meant the Mazda team was on no one's list to be a contender.
The three-pronged Mazda attack was spearheaded by the #55 787B, driven by Volker Weidler, Johnny Herbert, and Bertrand Gachot, and qualified a distant 19th overall. However, what the little 787B lacked in outright pace it made up for in fuel consumption – it didn't need nearly the fuel that the Jaguars and Mercedes required, while being able to stay somewhat on pace with the early leaders. The teams were only allotted a certain amount of fuel during the race, meaning that the blinding pace set by the fastest cars in practice would have to be tempered a bit during the race.
The Peugoets led away from the start at 3pm, but were quickly run down by the Sauber-Mercedes. With the TWR Jaguars either hitting trouble early, or not being able to match the pace of the Sauber-Mercedes, the Weidler/Herbert/Gachot 787B ran around in third, two laps behind – still in contention. It was unnoticed by nearly everybody.
"I kept seeing this bumble bee appear in my rearview mirror," said Davy Jones, one of the TWR Jaguar drivers, of the Mazda. "It appears behind, like a Mercedes…"
The Schumacher-wheeled Sauber-Mercedes went into the pits at 5 a.m. with transmission problems, moving the Mazda to second.
But in the 21st hour, with Jean-Lous Schlesser at the wheel, the leading Sauber-Mercedes was instructed to enter the pits –which it did, in a cloud of steam. A failed water pump belt meant game over for the Mercedes, and the Mazda, which had at this point been running in second, needed only ten minutes to take over the lead with two laps in hand over the Jones/Boesel/Ferte Jaguar.
As the minutes and hours ticked away, the French fans got into the spirit of the 787B becoming the first rotary-engined car to win the 24-hour race at le Circuit de la Sarthe. So distinctive was the sound of the 4-rotor Wankel, that every time the #55 787B came down the front straightaway, the fans would do a "Mazda wave"– keeping up with the car as it headed for LeMans glory.
Johnny Herbert, a future Formula 1 Grand Prix winner, was tasked with driving the final stint, and was so exhausted after crossing the finish line that when he emerged from the winning car, he collapsed on it. While Weidler and Gachot enjoyed the spoils of the podium ceremony, Herbert was receiving treatment at the track's care center!
1991 was the first, last, and only time that a Japanese car has won the 24 Hours of LeMans. The victory sealed the 787B's status as an icon with Mazda fans throughout the world. Mazda returned to LeMans in 1992 with a new car – the MXR-01 – and retained the lineup of Weidler/Herbert/Gachot, but was unable to recapture the magic with the new piston-engined car.
As such, the 1991 LeMans win remains Mazda's greatest accomplishment in motorsports.
#33
Depends on what you like.
I mean, i don't get the arguments.
I rented a 4 banger economy chevy for christmas vacation. Took it on a 10 hour trip and it got the same MPG as the 7 at 80mph. I have the pics to prove it too. It handled like ***, accelerated bad and just sucked when compared to the 7.
So if the piston engine is better why does an ECONOMY CAR with less than 50K miles get the same mileage as an NA with bolt-ons and piggy-back?
Let's not even get into the V8 deal. I don't think a V8 will get 25MPG let alone if they have a lead foot.
Torque? LOVE IT, feels good, the pickup going uphill is sweet. I just prefer the rotary. It does What I need it to do when I need it. ~2500lbs,
350hp. Don't really need more.
DOn't get me wrong, the achievements that have been made since the invention of the piston engine in the 1800s are amazing. Variable timing to improve mileage and increased performance (like the NA's 5th and 6th ports, OMG we got vtec too!), better materials, etc., etc.
I mean, i don't get the arguments.
I rented a 4 banger economy chevy for christmas vacation. Took it on a 10 hour trip and it got the same MPG as the 7 at 80mph. I have the pics to prove it too. It handled like ***, accelerated bad and just sucked when compared to the 7.
So if the piston engine is better why does an ECONOMY CAR with less than 50K miles get the same mileage as an NA with bolt-ons and piggy-back?
Let's not even get into the V8 deal. I don't think a V8 will get 25MPG let alone if they have a lead foot.
Torque? LOVE IT, feels good, the pickup going uphill is sweet. I just prefer the rotary. It does What I need it to do when I need it. ~2500lbs,
350hp. Don't really need more.
DOn't get me wrong, the achievements that have been made since the invention of the piston engine in the 1800s are amazing. Variable timing to improve mileage and increased performance (like the NA's 5th and 6th ports, OMG we got vtec too!), better materials, etc., etc.
I have a newer 996 Porsche 911 and on the freeway from SF to Tahoe, it got an average of 28+ mpg round trip. It's reliable, similar performance #'s, better gas mileage and gets more chicks than a rotary. I won't get into your 350hp rotary as being smog/street legal.
Compare the Rx8 compared to the Vette. Which has more HP/torque? I don't see how you can say the rotary has torque? The vette gets better or same mpg as the Rx8. Look at real world figures and EPA data. Heck take a Honda Odessey minivan. I bet it gets better gas mileage than the RX8 and probably weighs close to 4000lbs with more HP than a RX8. Maybe your rental car had some problems.
#35
I have a newer 996 Porsche 911 and on the freeway from SF to Tahoe, it got an average of 28+ mpg round trip. It's reliable, similar performance #'s, better gas mileage and gets more chicks than a rotary. I won't get into your 350hp rotary as being smog/street legal.
Compare the Rx8 compared to the Vette. Which has more HP/torque? I don't see how you can say the rotary has torque? The vette gets better or same mpg as the Rx8. Look at real world figures and EPA data. Heck take a Honda Odessey minivan. I bet it gets better gas mileage than the RX8 and probably weighs close to 4000lbs with more HP than a RX8. Maybe your rental car had some problems.
Everything looks good on paper. The V8's get 28mpg, the econo cars get 30+mpg, but the reality of life is that marketing owns people. The 8 is supposed to have 240hp but it doesn't. What looks great on paper rarely looks/acts the way it's supposed to.
in the end the Vette will not handle the same as an 8 with 3 or 4 people in it and neither will the minivan.
Does the piston motor suck? no, i never said that.
Is it just as fun as a rotary? yes, it is.
Did my rental car have problems? well, it only had 50K miles, and I assume the piston motors are more reliable at that mileage than any other car, right??
If you have the gas recipts for a V8 please let me know the avg. MPG. I don't think this guy is getting 28mpg but his car looks/sounds like a blast to drive:
http://salinasracing.com/videos/rast...ssexhaust2.wmv
http://salinasracing.com/videos/rast...jtstallone.wmv
http://rotarynews.com/node/view/844
As far as the legalities of my car? well, don't worry about it. I'm not.
Last edited by phoenix7; 01-22-08 at 03:02 PM.
#36
Depends on what you like.
I mean, i don't get the arguments.
I rented a 4 banger economy chevy for christmas vacation. Took it on a 10 hour trip and it got the same MPG as the 7 at 80mph. I have the pics to prove it too. It handled like ***, accelerated bad and just sucked when compared to the 7.
So if the piston engine is better why does an ECONOMY CAR with less than 50K miles get the same mileage as an NA with bolt-ons and piggy-back?
Let's not even get into the V8 deal. I don't think a V8 will get 25MPG let alone if they have a lead foot.
Torque? LOVE IT, feels good, the pickup going uphill is sweet. I just prefer the rotary. It does What I need it to do when I need it. ~2500lbs,
350hp. Don't really need more.
DOn't get me wrong, the achievements that have been made since the invention of the piston engine in the 1800s are amazing. Variable timing to improve mileage and increased performance (like the NA's 5th and 6th ports, OMG we got vtec too!), better materials, etc., etc.
I just don't like the piston engine that much.
I can appreciate a nice Chevy, with a nice lopey idle, open exhaust. I can appreciate a decent mustang, and the Supra and BMW I6s. I just don't think it does what I like any better than my 13B or the 13BT.
I mean, i don't get the arguments.
I rented a 4 banger economy chevy for christmas vacation. Took it on a 10 hour trip and it got the same MPG as the 7 at 80mph. I have the pics to prove it too. It handled like ***, accelerated bad and just sucked when compared to the 7.
So if the piston engine is better why does an ECONOMY CAR with less than 50K miles get the same mileage as an NA with bolt-ons and piggy-back?
Let's not even get into the V8 deal. I don't think a V8 will get 25MPG let alone if they have a lead foot.
Torque? LOVE IT, feels good, the pickup going uphill is sweet. I just prefer the rotary. It does What I need it to do when I need it. ~2500lbs,
350hp. Don't really need more.
DOn't get me wrong, the achievements that have been made since the invention of the piston engine in the 1800s are amazing. Variable timing to improve mileage and increased performance (like the NA's 5th and 6th ports, OMG we got vtec too!), better materials, etc., etc.
I just don't like the piston engine that much.
I can appreciate a nice Chevy, with a nice lopey idle, open exhaust. I can appreciate a decent mustang, and the Supra and BMW I6s. I just don't think it does what I like any better than my 13B or the 13BT.
The real truth lies here :
I just don't like the piston engine that much.
#37
The only distinction I'd make is that I'm not comparing the 13BT to the V8, V6, I6 etc., etc. PERFORMANCE-WISE. I'm comparing them based on MY needs and what I'M trying to achieve.
Other than that you're pretty right.
#38
Was it a Toyota?
#39
Look at the BSFC of the rotary engine compared to the piston engine. Rotary uses more fuel for the same HP. I never seen/witness a 2nd or 3rd gen rx7 get better than 25mpg on the highway with a stock ECU.
I have a newer 996 Porsche 911 and on the freeway from SF to Tahoe, it got an average of 28+ mpg round trip. It's reliable, similar performance #'s, better gas mileage and gets more chicks than a rotary. I won't get into your 350hp rotary as being smog/street legal.
Compare the Rx8 compared to the Vette. Which has more HP/torque? I don't see how you can say the rotary has torque? The vette gets better or same mpg as the Rx8. Look at real world figures and EPA data. Heck take a Honda Odessey minivan. I bet it gets better gas mileage than the RX8 and probably weighs close to 4000lbs with more HP than a RX8. Maybe your rental car had some problems.
I have a newer 996 Porsche 911 and on the freeway from SF to Tahoe, it got an average of 28+ mpg round trip. It's reliable, similar performance #'s, better gas mileage and gets more chicks than a rotary. I won't get into your 350hp rotary as being smog/street legal.
Compare the Rx8 compared to the Vette. Which has more HP/torque? I don't see how you can say the rotary has torque? The vette gets better or same mpg as the Rx8. Look at real world figures and EPA data. Heck take a Honda Odessey minivan. I bet it gets better gas mileage than the RX8 and probably weighs close to 4000lbs with more HP than a RX8. Maybe your rental car had some problems.
Vette gets better mileage hwy thanks to its insanely tall 6th gear and high torque output. Its city mileage isn't bad because it forces you to shift from 1st to 4th when driving normally (though I understand most owners deactivate this feature). I imagine at WOT a Vette consumes considerably more fuel than an RX-8 but it also moves twice as fast.
An Odyssey may get better fuel economy but it would be slower and handle like a Best Western.
I have nothing against piston engines, nor do I think rotary engines are gods gift to the automotive world. I just like them, don't know why.
#41
Any way, I posted this for only rotary buffs I guess, this can be debated till worlds end. I tried to balance it by finding an unbias article about the piston being more effcient than the rotary like how this one was written, but I can't find one. If you find one, go ahead and post it here, but I searched for a while and nothin.
#45
"i hate to love them", one of the best quotes i've read on here.
people can talk all the **** they want about rotarys/pistons motor and it could go on forever, it all comes down to being different for me. the rotary is far more exotic due to it's minimal production through out the years in comparison to a piston motor and that is what appeals to me. not exotic in the way a ferrarri or porsche is but in the fact that the information and knowledge of these engines and what makes them work is not well known or understood. i love the looks on peoples faces when i explain the rotary motor. and i love to hear people talk **** about them and not really know why they are "just pieces of crap" motors. lol, that's the best.
people can talk all the **** they want about rotarys/pistons motor and it could go on forever, it all comes down to being different for me. the rotary is far more exotic due to it's minimal production through out the years in comparison to a piston motor and that is what appeals to me. not exotic in the way a ferrarri or porsche is but in the fact that the information and knowledge of these engines and what makes them work is not well known or understood. i love the looks on peoples faces when i explain the rotary motor. and i love to hear people talk **** about them and not really know why they are "just pieces of crap" motors. lol, that's the best.
#46
#48
Exotic as in not even Porsche has matched the racing of the Rotary engine in classes lower that F1. Rotaries kick ***. the only thing better...DWIS, Double Wishbone Independent Suspension. And I can only think of one company on the planet that has done that on all their cars from the beginning...