Will you people EVER get it?

 

Hey, if all you can brag about is hp to liter, when the rotary has everything else going AGAINST it, then whatever floats your boat. My engine burns clean, gets good gas mileage(usually ), is 10x more reliable than a 13b-REW BOOSTED, and anybody can work on it. It's not always about the horsepower to liter. Someone would have to ask if you were compensating for something?

 

FC v8 61hp per liter = 12's

FC 13b 98hp per liter = 14's

My 3rd grade math skills tells me the V8 Fc is just a little faster.

So who cares about HP per liter?
Maybe I'm different than everyone else but my goal make my car go faster.

 

Hp/liter used to be a shortcut for comparing HP/weight or HP/physical size. The rotary really doesn't do well in the HP/weight or the HP/physical size. HP/liter means what to the driver vs. HP/weight or the HP/physical size? Nothing.

The FD motor complete is really a physically big package, comparing HP/weight it doesn't do all that well either.

All motors can be modded, the rotary isn't a cheap one to mod. You really can't beat the HP/$$, BSFC or emissions of the piston engine...

If you read any Car mags from the early 70s the rotary was going to take over the world, it didn't but the technology was probably purchased from the same guys who bought the 100 mpg carb... Right?

Are all the auto manufacturers in the world wrong (ex Mazda)?

I like rotarys, the same way old guys like their old '57 Chevy or '65 Mustang they are fun, cool because they are different but not really faster, cleaner, lighter or cheaper than most new cars.

 

A $20 *** .049 model airplane engine makes over 400 hp per liter in stock form. So why don't we use one to power our cars with? It's light, cheap, and makes impressive hp/liter!

Or is hp/liter suddenly not that important if the engine is simply too small...



As for the RX7 being unique, there are vastly more rotary powered RX7s than V8 powered RX7s, making the V8 ones arguably more unique. Hell, when I built mine back in '93, there were probably only a handful of them in the country, and no kits whatsoever to do the swap. That's unique. Sure, V8 Mustangs and Camaros are all over. That's one of the reasons I didn't stick with Mustangs and Camaros. I built Mustangs and Camaros before. I wanted something lighter, better looking, smaller, better looking, better built, better looking, with better ergonomics, better looking, cheaper, better looking, Oh, and did I mention I wanted something I thought was better looking? The RX7 is an outstanding sports GT, with excellent ergonomics, styling, interior, suspension, brakes, light weight, etc, and all that exists whether the rotary is in the car or not. RX7 people that think a V8 RX7 is no better than a Mustang or Camaro don't think very highly of the car itself outside the engine...

 

Amen brutha!!!!

In my mind, the cons outway the pros when it comes to the rotary. Ive owned 6 rotary powered Rx7's and Im currently swapping an LS1/T56 in my TII. If anything, Im making the car better....better mileage, better emissions, more reliable and most importantly it will be much faster. I also see V8 swapped Rx7's sell for more then when they have a rotary inside.

Chris

 

This pricing bull **** cracks me up.

I completed an LS1/4L60e swap for 2000 invested. Find me an equivalent ~350 HP rotary for that price? Now find one that can make the 375 lbs of torque to actually move the car around.

I've put 4 different engines in since then, as I like to tinker with things, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be done very much on the cheap if you so desire. Everyone likes to place the cost of rebuilding their engine vs. a crate motor... let's apples to apples here boys.

 

Update this water flooded Rx8 is back on the road. We pulled the plugs and cranked it over. During this process about 1 gallon of water started shooting out of the exhaust pipes. Once we put new plugs in, we went through our deflooding proceedure. The engine finally fired up and is now running perfectly. The next time this happens, I will go home and get my video recorder. It was pretty awsome witnessing this.

 

That quote wasn't for you. Maybe you understand pistons engine better than you do rotary's. Also did you not see my comment here "In the real world peak numbers are the only thing people care about". Just fully understand that you are using a much larger displacment engine to make your car go faster. A larger displacement rotary will do the exact same thing. That's what I'm trying to get some people to understand here. When you start doubling the hp output of a engine, you are going to have reliability problems. This is why I bring up the hp per liter issues as a true way to compare how hard a internal combuston engine is working. People ask to much out of the tiny 13b but yet these same people always complain when the blow their engine cause of ignorance.

 

What engine are you talking about? Call it what you want. Hp per is the only true way to judge how hard a internal combustion engine it working. Please explain to me how it has everything going against it?

 

Mazda doesn't import a bigger rotary because the buying public in the US does not want it.

Why do you think HP/L is the sole judge of "how hard an engine is working"?

What about how much fuel it uses to make the power? That is really how much HEAT the engine needs to make the power. The way to judge an engines efficiency is to use BSFC or Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. The rotary does poorly here btw...

I've got a '97 F-250 that probably dumped 5 gals out of the exhaust when I started it after it had been flooded, runs great 2yrs later w/o issues.

All that water you saw coming out of the exhaust on the RX8 was sitting in the muffler. The exhaust tips are low, water goes in there first.

 

this thread is the best. every page is full of lol's!

step1: sign up with new account on rx7club
step2: post once
step3: sit back and enjoy as your seeds of flame turn into an all out inferno
step4: bbq

 

To each his own. It's scientific proff, whether you believe it or not.

I never said anything about weight however since you brought that up, the weight is furthur back and lower to the ground with the 13b when compared to putting in any V8 in the engine bay. Period point blank end of story. The heaviest portion of the 13brew package is the engine itself and lower with the turbos. The V8's heft is all on top. 50/50 isn't everything it's where you put it. It's called lower center of gravity and low polar moment of ineria. This makes the car respond faster to steering inputs and change of direction. Anyone here wants to argue this fact is ignorant and doesn't understand the true science behind the automotive engineering of a pure sports car. I've seen the few threads in the section about people corner weighing their v8 conversions. The V8 rx7 will never acheive the handling dynamics of the 13b that was originaly engineered for the that particual chassis (especially if the engine isn't moved back and lower). All the weight is over and above the front axel and not behind it.


They are if you know what your doing. Plus this is America. All aftermarket company's are piston engine based. You also have to understand it's easier to get huge jumps in hp when you can just crank up the boost. But by average, your are correct.

No they just lack ambition. People by nature are unacustomed to different things. There are millions of people out there that still have never heard of the engine. Just the same there are people who never heard of the Rx7 either. Just because something is rare doesn't mean it has no future or potential.

Ahhh but they can be that's what poeple here don't realize. I for one plan on doing something about that. Again Mazda can't do all the R&D themselves. They need rotor heads like myself who have the passion and the understanding to make things better. And I'm not just talking about for myself.

 

You odviously did your own fabrication for that kind of money. So imagine what someone like myself would be able to do to a 13brew. Here's something for you to think over. Megasquirt goes for $350.00, Ebay intercooler for $200.00. My own fabed intake less than $100.00 bucks. Electric exhaust cutout as replacement for cat back $160.00. Clutch upgrade $400.00. So far where at $1,210.00. $200.00 for misc. You still have room if you can tune yourself. If not add 400.00. That's still less than what you were able to accomplish with fall less time consuming labor. The stock fuel system will handle 350hp.

To add I've got less than 100 dollars invested in the fabrication portion of my 20b set-up. So far I've fabed my subframe, tranny mounts, relocated my shifter, and shortend my driveshaft. Already I've saved well over 3,000 doing this myself.


Maybe if you knew what you were doing, you may not have gone through so many engines? Your ignorant mistakes increase your repair bills. That's is not apples to apples comparison.

 

Why do you assume he's ignorant for going through 4 engines? **** happens, its a rotary! Turbo'd rotaries are fragile by design and something as simple as bad gas will cause catastrophic failure. How many piston engines experience catastrophic failure from bad gas? I could easily say you're ignorant for holding on to that 4 rotor pipe dream. You want to talk about weight....I wonder how much a 4 rotor is going to weigh in your 7? Not to mention how much firewall cutting you will need to do.

You keep stacking rotors and ill keep stacking pistons. Get your 4 rotor and ill get my V16....do you see how stupid the arguement has become?

How many countless turbo'd LS1's could hand a 4 rotor its ***???? The answer is plenty!

 

The poor BSFC of the rotary is caused by the engines constant use of fuel per cylider per rotation. By design, this is an inherant design flaw of the rotary. The 2 rotor engine doesn't have the luxury of only firing a single fuel injector over every other rotation like piston engine does. Plus you have the really long combustion chamber that makes fully burning the fuel/air mixture less efficient. However I can easily trade one design flaw for another for an engine that needs many more numerious parts just to be operational.

I was specifically speaking of aluminum blocks. Every other aluminum block piston engine that comes into our shop for flood related problems had damaged blocks from the bottom end taking a **** cause the engine can't compress solid liguids. Rotary by a large marging don't have this problem.

Same thing with the piston engines that have come through. The only difference is the rotary was able to be put back into service. I can't say the same thing for all the pistons.

 

Why does everyone reply for everyone else? Did I ask you? Nope. If you had been paying attention he make the comment that he likes to tinker with stuff. It's not the engines fault if run outside of certain perameters. It's called ignorance! A stock car won't experience catoustrofice failure with a bad tank of gas. Only when modified.

 

Did you just say hp/liter is scientific proof?(or proff as you put it)? Sorry, there is a reason its referred to as "ricer math". The guy with the bigger engine and more power is going faster, end of discussion.

The weight of piston engines are at the top? What kind of scientific tests did you use to come up with this "fact". The e-shaft in a rotary sits in the center of the engine and the weight more or less centers around that. The crankshaft in an ls1 sits lower, and most of the weight is in the block and rotating assembly. While I don't know the exact center of mass for either engine, the difference isn't going to be huge or obvious, certainly not something the average driver is going to notice.

Better go post the news on the corvette forums that all their cars don't handle well because there v8s screw up the center of gravity, might want to find some forums for ferrari f430s, aston martin v8 vantages, audi R8s, new m3s, ford GTs, dodge vipers(really screwed with a v10) and lotus esprits, so you can break the news that there new expensive exotic sports cars handle like **** and are inferior to your 1993 mazda rx7

You can't turn up the boost on a piston engine? You could swap a 4g63, sr20, ford 2.3t etc, without too much trouble, but why bother when its so easy to throw in a h/c ls1 that will make more power than all of them on pump gas, with no lag, without the complexity and heat created by a turbocharger?

Ferrari, Aston Martin, and Porsche lack ambition? You should write them a letter to let them know they have no ambition and a small japanese company could show them all up at the races, if they could be bothered that is.

Good thing huge companies like mazda have you to pick up the pieces behind them, they would be lost and the world would come to a halt if they didn't.

Please realize the people you are arguing with aren't all completely retarded. It has been proven on several occasions that an ls1 fd handles just as well as a 13b powered fd.

This argument will never end.

 

When did I ever say anything about putting a 4 rotor in my Rx7?




You odvioulsy have no clue what a turbo 4 rotor is capable of. We have 3 rotors making 1,400 hp. What do you think a 4 rotor will do?

 

We have bigger engines to go fast too. Your point?


Ahh the crank isn't the only thing. You also have a very tall engine and heads with the whole rotating assembly on top of the crank. The bulk of the v8 engines weight is above the crank shaft. I can easily take a picture of a rotary block sitting next to a v8 block on the oil pans. Then you tell me which has the lower center of gravity.

I said handling dynamics. I also never said a v8 Rx7 would handle like **** either. It will never have the handling dynamics of the stock car. You are yet another person who fails to comprehend what I say. I don't think you understand the engineering difference do you?


And what purpose do you serve? You do realize you are on a rotary forum now do you?


Where's the proff? I have yet to see an v8 conversion put down the same handling numbers as a stock Fd. That v8 Rx7 in the super tuner challenge didn't impress at all (handling wise).


It's a debate. Not an argument! Big difference!

 

And how practical and available are they?

Very tall engine that fits under the same hood? I didn't say the weight isn't above the crankshaft, I just said the crankshaft will sit noticeably lower in the car than the e shaft in a rotary. If taking a picture will make you feel better, go ahead, the truth is the materials and density of the engine are different and in different places and won't tell us anything. Bottom line is you are trying to turn your speculation in to scientific "proff" and all its accomplishing is making you look like a dumbass blowhard.

Maybe the handling dynamics won't be exactly the same, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. You act like the car is perfect from the factory, if this is true, why does everyone change the suspension to make the car handle better? Removing weight changes the handling dynamics, but you don't hear people saying, no don't take out that power steering pump or my car won't handle as good. Don't fill the tank with gas, don't eat a hamburger before you drive the car because it all changes the handling dynamics. Even if there was some minuscule difference, having 400+ft-lbs of torque to pull you out of corners is going to more then make up for it.


rx7club dipshit, this is an rx7 forum and I own an rx7 and I have just as much a right to be here as you. You do realize this is the OTHER ENGINE CONVERSION section in rx7club as well?

I am simply a car enthusiast, I like to make my car faster and race it. I never claimed to be the savior of mazda, or any other company, you are the blowhard so I called you on it.

The "proff" is all here and on v8rx7forums. I have owned a turbo rotary powered rx7 and the same car with an ls1, so I think I have a more favorable perspective to judge if the car feels different to drive. Have you ever even driven an ls1 powered rx7?

 

Re-read my post regarding engine bay fires, it explains why my point is not semantics, but a case of misinformation. If you still don't get it, I feel sorry for whoever had to teach you how to wipe your own ***. Jesus H Christ.

 

Practicality or availability are excusses your guys like to bring up. They exist. Whenever we bring up a 4 rotor to fairly compare (displacment wise) to a v8, You all bring this stuff up eveytime. Why can't you just compare the two egual sized engines and be done with it? The simple answer is (performance wise) a 4 rotor out performs the LS1 and even the LS6. They currently aren't practical cause no one has tried to make them practical. These engines potential is far from being realized.


I have an assignment for you. Go measure the crank shaft center point of the average V8 conversion. Then I will give the numbers as they are for the stock rew. I'm saying the weight is above the crankshaft. You have to also consider the depth of the oil pan which will raise the crank higher in the engine bay if you don't want it draging the pavement. Rew oil pan depth is 3" what's the depth of the LS1? You have to considered this. If you put a rotary block on an engine stand mounted on the flywheel, you would be able to rotate the engine in a fully balanced circle. Try this with a v8 block with heads. I will guarantee you the block will topple over with the crank and oil pan facing up. Th v8 has more weight above it's crank.


Your taking this to literaly.


"Dipshit"? Stronger words have never been said behind ones computer. Kid you are taking this debate way too personal. I'm not questioning your reason for being here on THIS forum. That's not my place! Go back and read what I've posted and the context around what has been going on in this thread. Maybe then you will comprehend better what I've already said.




Perfect example! You just don't listen do you? Your emothions are too out of control here. Why are you justifying yourself? Did I ever claim you to be any savior? I do recall me saying something like this. "Again Mazda can't do all the R&D themselves. They need rotor heads like myself who have the passion and the understanding to make things better. And I'm not just talking about for myself". That reply was to turbo Jeff. Then you came in from know where with your comments below

The I replied "And what purpose do you serve? You do realize you are on a rotary forum now do you?

I have a goal to make things better for rotor heads in the world. That's what I meant. Then I asked you what purpose do you serve? In response I got called a Dipshit because you completely mis-sunderstood what I was saying. Todays youth never seems to amaze me with yalls lack of comprehension. Yall talk too much out of yall's asses and wouldn't say half the **** in somones face.



No I have not and don't plan on it either! Put your vehicle in the hands of an experienced racer and have them tell me your car handles just the same as a stock Fd. I want numbers as proff. Not "it feels just the same". Better yet have someone like Howard Coleman take your car for a spin on a track or even Damon B. They know how Fd are suppose to handle.

 

The most ignorant of all are those who refuse to relinquish their pride and acknowledge something better when they see it. T-von...your arguements are weak at best and you fail to see the big picture. Everyone bitches about 50/50 weight ratio when a V8 gets tossed in the car but if its a 20B they have no problem with it. Do you see the double standard? A 20B will definately mess with the 50/50 weight ratio but neither engine can offset it so much that its noticeable to the driver. Id rather have the torque of a V8 when exiting the corner then some boosted rotary.

 

Pretty sure I understood that when I built the car But thanks for the heads up.

Make the same power, maybe? Do the same thing, NO WAY!

I have just a few questions for you about this imaginary 4 rotor of yours.
- Whats the weight of a 4 rotor ready to run?
-Whats the cars weight distribution now?
-How many rotors have to ride inside the stock cabin with you until you build a new firewall?
-How much does just a stock 4 rotor cost? Just the motor, before installation.