Joining the 500 RWHP club
05-29-13 | 07:02 PM
#26
Rotary Freak
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 0
From: fort worth, tx, usa
Look Steve, I called you out because I think the community needs to see what you actually stand for and how you treat your customers during the tuning process. I have made myself clear about what I found during my tuning of Don's car and what I did to correct it. Tuning you did not provide.
You're right Joe. You showed me that you lack in understanding of basic engine operations. You also showed me that you lack of any understanding of EGT and sensors calibration/setup.
You presented yourself as an arrogant person with lack of tuning knowledge, who is trying to start something without knowing what you're getting yourself into. It's easy to convince Don to retune his car for more power, but you just got lucky that he changed the exhaust( less EBP), otherwise that car would have been blown. That's why I left it where the current setup made the most and safest power. Anything over that would be asking for trouble. I guess it's a good comparison that I made 422whp at 16psi with a restricted exhaust and you made 505 at 22psi with free flowing exhaust. The exhaust change by itself gained you 30whp. Because at 16psi on the old exhaust the car hit a brick wall. Another 1psi gained 3whp overall. Do you know what that means?
You also showed that you lack the ability to create your own map and had to use my map as a starting point but yet, you yourself did not correct the simplest error you claimed "map calibration" and reuse map calibration. I guess changing a few parameters for you to show a power gain is much easier than redoing the entire map right?
As for these technical details you keep going on about, these are things that can be found doing a Google search. So what is the point in having me repeat them.
You're right. I guess everyone can become a tuner by googling all the information. The fact is that you lack the fundamental understanding on how an internal combustion engine ( and rotary, on top of that) works and tried to present yourself as being knowledgeable and providing false information to the public.
I think you're a tuner that doesn't take the time to properly tune someone's car and cares more about getting it done then making the customer happy. Don isn't the only one of your customers to get lower power numbers, a simple search on this forum will consistently bring up your underwhelming results.
Like you said in the past yet still contradicting yourself. Not all cars created equal. I tuned to provide safe margins with reliable power. Obviously you have no idea what your margin is since you have one thing in mind. Boost till you reached the power goal.
Given this long conversation I think the community now has enough information to make a judgement on you before they decide to have you tune their car.
That's why I contacted you, as I wanted to make sure you stated your side after I stated what I found.
Good luck with your future tuning.
You're right Joe. You showed me that you lack in understanding of basic engine operations. You also showed me that you lack of any understanding of EGT and sensors calibration/setup.
You presented yourself as an arrogant person with lack of tuning knowledge, who is trying to start something without knowing what you're getting yourself into. It's easy to convince Don to retune his car for more power, but you just got lucky that he changed the exhaust( less EBP), otherwise that car would have been blown. That's why I left it where the current setup made the most and safest power. Anything over that would be asking for trouble. I guess it's a good comparison that I made 422whp at 16psi with a restricted exhaust and you made 505 at 22psi with free flowing exhaust. The exhaust change by itself gained you 30whp. Because at 16psi on the old exhaust the car hit a brick wall. Another 1psi gained 3whp overall. Do you know what that means?
You also showed that you lack the ability to create your own map and had to use my map as a starting point but yet, you yourself did not correct the simplest error you claimed "map calibration" and reuse map calibration. I guess changing a few parameters for you to show a power gain is much easier than redoing the entire map right?
As for these technical details you keep going on about, these are things that can be found doing a Google search. So what is the point in having me repeat them.
You're right. I guess everyone can become a tuner by googling all the information. The fact is that you lack the fundamental understanding on how an internal combustion engine ( and rotary, on top of that) works and tried to present yourself as being knowledgeable and providing false information to the public.
I think you're a tuner that doesn't take the time to properly tune someone's car and cares more about getting it done then making the customer happy. Don isn't the only one of your customers to get lower power numbers, a simple search on this forum will consistently bring up your underwhelming results.
Like you said in the past yet still contradicting yourself. Not all cars created equal. I tuned to provide safe margins with reliable power. Obviously you have no idea what your margin is since you have one thing in mind. Boost till you reached the power goal.
Given this long conversation I think the community now has enough information to make a judgement on you before they decide to have you tune their car.
That's why I contacted you, as I wanted to make sure you stated your side after I stated what I found.
Good luck with your future tuning.
Likewise, as the community will find out your lack of knowledge in the matter. (doesn't know how to setup a wideband into datalogit, doesn't know how to setup the dyno to read rpm, doesn't understand EGT, doesn't know how to setup map sensor calibrations, reuse other tuner's map and call it your own. Best of all, doesn't know the actual boost reading you are tuning for. I guess you didn't know the dyno also use a GM 3bar map sensor separate from the standard Dynojet map sensor. Did you verify the calibration? Did you read the boost gauge that was in the car?)
There's really no point for me to continue with this conversation since you can't provide any answers other than pointing fingers on "look what I find"
Good luck with your external wastegate advanture. Good thing you are running water injection or else that engine would have been blown long time ago with your knowledge.
05-29-13 | 08:40 PM
#29
Went through this briefly. With claims of a 30+ hp/psi gain at over 20 psi on this setup, not considering that most of that was probably due to measurement error in the boost reading and from variations in other variables from one run to another, supposed drastic changes in EGTs due to one degree of leading timing change, and assumptions that a professional tuner would intentionally tune to 10-10.5 AFRs and not just immediately attribute such readings as having resulted from other causes like a different WB sensor being used since the original tune, it is very hard to put any weight into what Ball Joint is saying. On the contrary, it comes across as a pretty unfounded attack. I'd also be interested to see the 25%+ variation in the map in adjacent cells that correspond to a cruise condition.
05-29-13 | 11:43 PM
#30
Likewise, as the community will find out your lack of knowledge in the matter. (doesn't know how to setup a wideband into datalogit, doesn't know how to setup the dyno to read rpm, doesn't understand EGT, doesn't know how to setup map sensor calibrations, reuse other tuner's map and call it your own. Best of all, doesn't know the actual boost reading you are tuning for. I guess you didn't know the dyno also use a GM 3bar map sensor separate from the standard Dynojet map sensor. Did you verify the calibration? Did you read the boost gauge that was in the car?)
There's really no point for me to continue with this conversation since you can't provide any answers other than pointing fingers on "look what I find"
Good luck with your external wastegate advanture. Good thing you are running water injection or else that engine would have been blown long time ago with your knowledge.
There's really no point for me to continue with this conversation since you can't provide any answers other than pointing fingers on "look what I find"
Good luck with your external wastegate advanture. Good thing you are running water injection or else that engine would have been blown long time ago with your knowledge.
I love how you keep going into details on calibrations when you couldn't even give Don a basic drivability map and made excuses instead of producing results. All it took was a simple AFR tune to get him to a stable 13:5-13:8 AFR drivability tune to cure the drivability problems, took me all of 40 minutes. Like I said prior, your drivability tune had him ranging from 10:5-1AFR-17:5-1 between just two cells on the map. This is in my mind is pure laziness on your part, and it's a fact that Don can backup.
Ahhh... That's cute, talk **** about my own car to make yourself look better. See any breakup/detonation in any of those dyno pull videos I'm posting on this site? Last one was on a Mustang dyno in fourth gear with 70F ambient temps, I'm making nearly as much peak power as your "little bird" Bill on stock frame turbos. Want to talk **** about my tunes? Last number I saw you make on BNR's didn't even come close.
Here's the thread where you tuned GoodfellaFD3S's car on Non-sequential BNR stage 3's.
BNR stage 3 low boost 366hp 13.5psi, 421rwhp (race gas!?) 17.5psi
https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-d...esults-442095/
I love this one in particular, cause you complained earlier about me tuning on 100 octane for safety measures, yet you through in C16! to tune on 17.5psi. I guess race gas is a nice thing to have when you're building a new map as a safety measure. Sounds familier.
As for working off your map, sure, of course I did, I didn't have a map for a 500R which I know responds differently to a 35R. I heavily adjusted yours to make Don's map, but to give me **** about that would be the equivalent of giving a bread maker **** for not coming up with his own recipe for sourdough. Point is that if you have a base map to work off of; you load it in and work from there. If you don't, then you spend the time and effort to adapt what you have to make work for future builds. Every tuner does this, are you arguing that you create a completely brand new map for every single car you tune? I highly doubt your business model would work out otherwise.
Gotta say one thing Steve, I can tell your pissed off, and I'm happy for it. Makes you actually come out into the wild instead of hiding behind the magic curtain of "conservative numbers" and makes you deal with the fact that you're delivering low power numbers while wearing the kings hat of "God of tuning" on this forum.
Once again, good luck in your futre of "conservative" low power tunes.
05-30-13 | 12:20 AM
#31
You wanted to set the calibration for AN1-AN2 to 9.0-16 afr. we hooked it up to MY car for the proper settings as mine is set up already. don googled the problem and pointed us in the right direction. I calibrated the o2 sensor (brand new out of the box), as far as setting up the outputs.. not me, im not tuning the car. the laptop was however in MY hand and on MY com port settings when I told you to turn the car off, turn it on and unplug/replug in the DIN connector. I remember don saying "but it says no! don't plug it in with the car on!".. yea.
my setup is perfectly capable of making 520 at the wheels. the day my car was on the dyno I still had the AVC-R in learn mode, if you go back and look at my map (its on here and scanned well so theres no argument to it) my power falls off as my boost dives to 19 psi. im at 22-23 so no problems there, ill gladly put it back on the dyno with a new # for you. problem is the higher up I go, ill have to switch to the CJ dual pump hanger as the aeromotive stealth 340 is only good to 533ish hp. I beat the ever living **** out of my car and don't like it running on the edge.
lets look at dons torque vs mine... similar setup yet less torque with more hp? his turbo should hit peak earlier than mine as well. hes even on 9:1 compression rotors where as im on 8.5:1. my entire map builds power faster than his does or were you not looking at the monitor when we had a side by side up on the screen?
as far as me being a tuner you mentioned in a previous post. can I tune? yea, im more than capable. but why would I want to be liable for an engine (1200+ dollars minimum) when I can pay someone else 3-500 to do it?
theres no bad blood between me and don on the #s. I simply don't like your attitude or the way you went about this whole thing. I don't have to like you, and you don't have to like me.. but bashing ME in all of this when ive recalled everything to the best of my recollection is uncalled for and wont be tolerated. did you see me make a post saying you were a ****? no, it was simply my opinion that i expressed to people that i know. was I wrong about the seals in his motor? it would seem so.
How about you post your map and steve can post his and let the facts stand for themselves? Its either that or we can all go back and forth stomping mud holes in each others asses or beating a dead horse if you would prefer.
my setup is perfectly capable of making 520 at the wheels. the day my car was on the dyno I still had the AVC-R in learn mode, if you go back and look at my map (its on here and scanned well so theres no argument to it) my power falls off as my boost dives to 19 psi. im at 22-23 so no problems there, ill gladly put it back on the dyno with a new # for you. problem is the higher up I go, ill have to switch to the CJ dual pump hanger as the aeromotive stealth 340 is only good to 533ish hp. I beat the ever living **** out of my car and don't like it running on the edge.
lets look at dons torque vs mine... similar setup yet less torque with more hp? his turbo should hit peak earlier than mine as well. hes even on 9:1 compression rotors where as im on 8.5:1. my entire map builds power faster than his does or were you not looking at the monitor when we had a side by side up on the screen?
as far as me being a tuner you mentioned in a previous post. can I tune? yea, im more than capable. but why would I want to be liable for an engine (1200+ dollars minimum) when I can pay someone else 3-500 to do it?
theres no bad blood between me and don on the #s. I simply don't like your attitude or the way you went about this whole thing. I don't have to like you, and you don't have to like me.. but bashing ME in all of this when ive recalled everything to the best of my recollection is uncalled for and wont be tolerated. did you see me make a post saying you were a ****? no, it was simply my opinion that i expressed to people that i know. was I wrong about the seals in his motor? it would seem so.
How about you post your map and steve can post his and let the facts stand for themselves? Its either that or we can all go back and forth stomping mud holes in each others asses or beating a dead horse if you would prefer.
05-30-13 | 01:45 PM
#32
You wanted to set the calibration for AN1-AN2 to 9.0-16 afr. we hooked it up to MY car for the proper settings as mine is set up already. don googled the problem and pointed us in the right direction. I calibrated the o2 sensor (brand new out of the box), as far as setting up the outputs.. not me, im not tuning the car. the laptop was however in MY hand and on MY com port settings when I told you to turn the car off, turn it on and unplug/replug in the DIN connector. I remember don saying "but it says no! don't plug it in with the car on!".. yea.
my setup is perfectly capable of making 520 at the wheels. the day my car was on the dyno I still had the AVC-R in learn mode, if you go back and look at my map (its on here and scanned well so theres no argument to it) my power falls off as my boost dives to 19 psi. im at 22-23 so no problems there, ill gladly put it back on the dyno with a new # for you. problem is the higher up I go, ill have to switch to the CJ dual pump hanger as the aeromotive stealth 340 is only good to 533ish hp. I beat the ever living **** out of my car and don't like it running on the edge.
lets look at dons torque vs mine... similar setup yet less torque with more hp? his turbo should hit peak earlier than mine as well. hes even on 9:1 compression rotors where as im on 8.5:1. my entire map builds power faster than his does or were you not looking at the monitor when we had a side by side up on the screen?
as far as me being a tuner you mentioned in a previous post. can I tune? yea, im more than capable. but why would I want to be liable for an engine (1200+ dollars minimum) when I can pay someone else 3-500 to do it?
theres no bad blood between me and don on the #s. I simply don't like your attitude or the way you went about this whole thing. I don't have to like you, and you don't have to like me.. but bashing ME in all of this when ive recalled everything to the best of my recollection is uncalled for and wont be tolerated. did you see me make a post saying you were a ****? no, it was simply my opinion that i expressed to people that i know. was I wrong about the seals in his motor? it would seem so.
How about you post your map and steve can post his and let the facts stand for themselves? Its either that or we can all go back and forth stomping mud holes in each others asses or beating a dead horse if you would prefer.
my setup is perfectly capable of making 520 at the wheels. the day my car was on the dyno I still had the AVC-R in learn mode, if you go back and look at my map (its on here and scanned well so theres no argument to it) my power falls off as my boost dives to 19 psi. im at 22-23 so no problems there, ill gladly put it back on the dyno with a new # for you. problem is the higher up I go, ill have to switch to the CJ dual pump hanger as the aeromotive stealth 340 is only good to 533ish hp. I beat the ever living **** out of my car and don't like it running on the edge.
lets look at dons torque vs mine... similar setup yet less torque with more hp? his turbo should hit peak earlier than mine as well. hes even on 9:1 compression rotors where as im on 8.5:1. my entire map builds power faster than his does or were you not looking at the monitor when we had a side by side up on the screen?
as far as me being a tuner you mentioned in a previous post. can I tune? yea, im more than capable. but why would I want to be liable for an engine (1200+ dollars minimum) when I can pay someone else 3-500 to do it?
theres no bad blood between me and don on the #s. I simply don't like your attitude or the way you went about this whole thing. I don't have to like you, and you don't have to like me.. but bashing ME in all of this when ive recalled everything to the best of my recollection is uncalled for and wont be tolerated. did you see me make a post saying you were a ****? no, it was simply my opinion that i expressed to people that i know. was I wrong about the seals in his motor? it would seem so.
How about you post your map and steve can post his and let the facts stand for themselves? Its either that or we can all go back and forth stomping mud holes in each others asses or beating a dead horse if you would prefer.
As for posting the map, I'm all for it, but it's up to Don as he payed for it and it's up to his discretion what he wants to do with it. I'll post it but I need his approval first.
05-30-13 | 02:06 PM
#33
Rotary Freak
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 0
From: fort worth, tx, usa
[QUOTE=Ball joint;11481355]Go ahead Steve, justify your unfounded claims, I knew how to calibrate the map sensor and Bill (boosted414) is knowingly lying to you to make you seem better then you are. He was there the entire time, how about we have Bill come on and testify and have Don backup that claim who is now the owner of a 505whp RX-7 to back it up. I think that would be interesting. How about you ask Bill how the Innovate software was supposed to be calibrated to my instructions prior to my arrival and due to Don's time constraints (to no fault of his own) wasn't done. How about we have Bill come on and tell the truth that they weren't able to get the serial adaptor to communicate with the Innovate setup program and it was ultimately Don that was able to get the serial adaptor connection to work. You're "little bird" is shitting on the hood of your claims, and to be honest should be making over 520whp given his setup. (by the way Bill, I'd gladly get you that power, even with everything aside).
What claims am I making? You're the one that is making claims. I hinted many times on this thread the answer to your claims yet you still having been able to grasp it. Do I need to hold your hands to step you through this? How much fuel was unburnt due to the HBP from overlap? Did you compensate the % in fuel due to overlap?
I love how you keep going into details on calibrations when you couldn't even give Don a basic drivability map and made excuses instead of producing results. All it took was a simple AFR tune to get him to a stable 13:5-13:8 AFR drivability tune to cure the drivability problems, took me all of 40 minutes. Like I said prior, your drivability tune had him ranging from 10:5-1AFR-17:5-1 between just two cells on the map. This is in my mind is pure laziness on your part, and it's a fact that Don can backup.
Calibration, Calibration, Calibration. Caibration is essential to ensure all your inputs were set correctly to provide the desired output. If one parameter is off, everything else is off. Obviously you have no concept of calibrations. Plug and play. Or in your case, plug and pray.
Ahhh... That's cute, talk **** about my own car to make yourself look better. See any breakup/detonation in any of those dyno pull videos I'm posting on this site? Last one was on a Mustang dyno in fourth gear with 70F ambient temps, I'm making nearly as much peak power as your "little bird" Bill on stock frame turbos. Want to talk **** about my tunes? Last number I saw you make on BNR's didn't even come close.
Oh wow!! Mustang dyno numbers. Do you even know how mustang dyno measure hp? What parameters were set prior to dyno your car? What mode was is it? Oh wait, I have a MD500 AWD DE at my shop. I would have gladly shown you how to operate it. Again... Calibration, Calibration, Calibration... There are more parameters on a mustang dyno that can affect the hp number than a dynojet.
Here's the thread where you tuned GoodfellaFD3S's car on Non-sequential BNR stage 3's.
BNR stage 3 low boost 366hp 13.5psi, 421rwhp (race gas!?) 17.5psi
https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-d...esults-442095/
I love this one in particular, cause you complained earlier about me tuning on 100 octane for safety measures, yet you through in C16! to tune on 17.5psi. I guess race gas is a nice thing to have when you're building a new map as a safety measure. Sounds familier.
Again, you read parts of it and think that is how it goes. Must be your "google" mind at play. When I tuned Rich's car back in 2005 We have a mind set. Tune on pump gas and race gas and see how far we can go with the BNR turbos since Brian at BNR wanted to know. Part of the problem was that Rich does not have a datalogit so changing from pump gas map to race gas map was next to impossible. The only option was to do both on the same map (hint separation on cells/boost level to ensure they do not overlap and accidentally tune over it, which again you wouldn't have thought of that approach with your simple mind). He wasn't planning to drive more than 14psi on pump gas so we stopped at that level. We drained the gas and put race gas in for high boost. We stopped at 17.5psi because the turbos were maxed out and I told Rich we can go further but your gain will be minimal and could potential damage the engine if we push it. We agreed that he was happy with the results and stop there. BTW, this was on a dynopak (which you probably don't know how it works either). If you really want to find more numbers, dig "google", search Spoauto. The very first set of BNR every made and David Tansley for the highest sequential BNR turbo hp numbers. Both were on pump gas without the aid of aux inj or race gas. What version of BNR are you running? V3??? Again, you are still trying to make comparison on a totally different turbos.
Why not compare dyno numbers between a T04B vs. T51R SPL?? Both are T04 Based turbo. Google them in case you don't know the difference.
As for working off your map, sure, of course I did, I didn't have a map for a 500R which I know responds differently to a 35R. I heavily adjusted yours to make Don's map, but to give me **** about that would be the equivalent of giving a bread maker **** for not coming up with his own recipe for sourdough. Point is that if you have a base map to work off of; you load it in and work from there. If you don't, then you spend the time and effort to adapt what you have to make work for future builds. Every tuner does this, are you arguing that you create a completely brand new map for every single car you tune? I highly doubt your business model would work out otherwise.
Yes and No. The only database I use with my basemap happens to be Power FC. I create everything else from scratch. Ask anyone whom I tuned how much time I spent on the first 10-15 mins going through all the "calibrations" and making "adjustments" prior to the first pull. Haltech in particular takes even longer since I have to make more adjustments on every table. If you have the experience I have, you will know approximately what inj time and duty cycle it takes to create a map from scratch.
Let me guess your train of though, You assume everything was correct since I tuned it prior to you so you jump on the car and made the first pull immediately and see where everything is. You start making adjustments up to 17psi shown on the dyno and realized that you were running out of cell. You then blame that the calibration of the map sensor was off and readjust the scales to offset more boost. But instead of redoing the whole map again and wasting more time for yourself and Don since the "calibration" was off on the map sensor, you decided to just say xxxx it, I will tune with what was set.
That my man is lack of knowledge and experience. You should always look at every table prior to making the first pull. I doubt that you even look at any tables and parameters before you made the first pull. Do you even know what injectors he was running prior to your first pull? Did you verify parameters were set correctly? Oh wait, you have no concept of calibration so if it "works" its fine by you.
Gotta say one thing Steve, I can tell your pissed off, and I'm happy for it. Makes you actually come out into the wild instead of hiding behind the magic curtain of "conservative numbers" and makes you deal with the fact that you're delivering low power numbers while wearing the kings hat of "God of tuning" on this forum.
Pissed? Hardly, I do find it humorous that you are still going off on me and your "finding" was without giving any solid proof other than hp numbers. Have you done an ABA analysis to conclude your theory? Probably not. You probably don't even know what that means. Go "google" it.
As for me wearing the crown of "god of tuning"??? I never called myself the "god of tuning" I have learned a great deal talking to other tuners and I will continue to study new software as I go. Need a list for what I know so far?
(Accel Gen 7, AEM EMS, AEM (FIC) Fuel/Ignition Controller, A'PEXi Power FC/FC Edit (all cars/model), Autronic SMC, SM2 and SM4 , Cobb Accessport for Rx8/R35/MS6, MS3, G35/350Z/370Z, Subaru (Streettuner), Dynojet Power Commander / all models, DSM/ECM Link, EcuFlash for Subaru and Mitsubishi vehicles, EFI Live, Electromotive Tec 3 and Tec 3R, F.A.S.T. and F.A.S.T. XFI, GReddy Emanage and Emanage Ultimate, Haltech E6X(K), F10X, E6GMX, E8, E11v2 and Platinum 1000/2000, Pro, Haltech F10 Fuel Controller, Haltech Interceptor and Miniceptor, Hondata S300, Flash Pro and K-Pro, HP Tuners, Hydra EMS 2.5/2.6/2.7, Link G4, MAF Translator Pro, MAF Translator GenII and MAF Translator, MAP ECU I/II, Megasquirt, Mircotech LT8, LT10, LT12, MoTec M4, M48, M400, M600, M800 and M880, Neptune, Pro EFI, Rtek, SAFC or VAFC, SCT Flash, Turbo XS UTEC, UpRev, Wolf EMS)
However, I do dare to say that I have tuned more Rx7s in the US than any shop/person. I have approximately 10.6Mb of customer files in my database just on Power FC alone. This doesn't include all the vehicles I have tuned (domestic, euro and Import) and different formats of ECU. It would be stupid for me to tell you do the math on my combined files when other systems have different file size. Do the math or "google" how many files that is on PowerFc.
What claims am I making? You're the one that is making claims. I hinted many times on this thread the answer to your claims yet you still having been able to grasp it. Do I need to hold your hands to step you through this? How much fuel was unburnt due to the HBP from overlap? Did you compensate the % in fuel due to overlap?
I love how you keep going into details on calibrations when you couldn't even give Don a basic drivability map and made excuses instead of producing results. All it took was a simple AFR tune to get him to a stable 13:5-13:8 AFR drivability tune to cure the drivability problems, took me all of 40 minutes. Like I said prior, your drivability tune had him ranging from 10:5-1AFR-17:5-1 between just two cells on the map. This is in my mind is pure laziness on your part, and it's a fact that Don can backup.
Calibration, Calibration, Calibration. Caibration is essential to ensure all your inputs were set correctly to provide the desired output. If one parameter is off, everything else is off. Obviously you have no concept of calibrations. Plug and play. Or in your case, plug and pray.
Ahhh... That's cute, talk **** about my own car to make yourself look better. See any breakup/detonation in any of those dyno pull videos I'm posting on this site? Last one was on a Mustang dyno in fourth gear with 70F ambient temps, I'm making nearly as much peak power as your "little bird" Bill on stock frame turbos. Want to talk **** about my tunes? Last number I saw you make on BNR's didn't even come close.
Oh wow!! Mustang dyno numbers. Do you even know how mustang dyno measure hp? What parameters were set prior to dyno your car? What mode was is it? Oh wait, I have a MD500 AWD DE at my shop. I would have gladly shown you how to operate it. Again... Calibration, Calibration, Calibration... There are more parameters on a mustang dyno that can affect the hp number than a dynojet.
Here's the thread where you tuned GoodfellaFD3S's car on Non-sequential BNR stage 3's.
BNR stage 3 low boost 366hp 13.5psi, 421rwhp (race gas!?) 17.5psi
https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-d...esults-442095/
I love this one in particular, cause you complained earlier about me tuning on 100 octane for safety measures, yet you through in C16! to tune on 17.5psi. I guess race gas is a nice thing to have when you're building a new map as a safety measure. Sounds familier.
Again, you read parts of it and think that is how it goes. Must be your "google" mind at play. When I tuned Rich's car back in 2005 We have a mind set. Tune on pump gas and race gas and see how far we can go with the BNR turbos since Brian at BNR wanted to know. Part of the problem was that Rich does not have a datalogit so changing from pump gas map to race gas map was next to impossible. The only option was to do both on the same map (hint separation on cells/boost level to ensure they do not overlap and accidentally tune over it, which again you wouldn't have thought of that approach with your simple mind). He wasn't planning to drive more than 14psi on pump gas so we stopped at that level. We drained the gas and put race gas in for high boost. We stopped at 17.5psi because the turbos were maxed out and I told Rich we can go further but your gain will be minimal and could potential damage the engine if we push it. We agreed that he was happy with the results and stop there. BTW, this was on a dynopak (which you probably don't know how it works either). If you really want to find more numbers, dig "google", search Spoauto. The very first set of BNR every made and David Tansley for the highest sequential BNR turbo hp numbers. Both were on pump gas without the aid of aux inj or race gas. What version of BNR are you running? V3??? Again, you are still trying to make comparison on a totally different turbos.
Why not compare dyno numbers between a T04B vs. T51R SPL?? Both are T04 Based turbo. Google them in case you don't know the difference.
As for working off your map, sure, of course I did, I didn't have a map for a 500R which I know responds differently to a 35R. I heavily adjusted yours to make Don's map, but to give me **** about that would be the equivalent of giving a bread maker **** for not coming up with his own recipe for sourdough. Point is that if you have a base map to work off of; you load it in and work from there. If you don't, then you spend the time and effort to adapt what you have to make work for future builds. Every tuner does this, are you arguing that you create a completely brand new map for every single car you tune? I highly doubt your business model would work out otherwise.
Yes and No. The only database I use with my basemap happens to be Power FC. I create everything else from scratch. Ask anyone whom I tuned how much time I spent on the first 10-15 mins going through all the "calibrations" and making "adjustments" prior to the first pull. Haltech in particular takes even longer since I have to make more adjustments on every table. If you have the experience I have, you will know approximately what inj time and duty cycle it takes to create a map from scratch.
Let me guess your train of though, You assume everything was correct since I tuned it prior to you so you jump on the car and made the first pull immediately and see where everything is. You start making adjustments up to 17psi shown on the dyno and realized that you were running out of cell. You then blame that the calibration of the map sensor was off and readjust the scales to offset more boost. But instead of redoing the whole map again and wasting more time for yourself and Don since the "calibration" was off on the map sensor, you decided to just say xxxx it, I will tune with what was set.
That my man is lack of knowledge and experience. You should always look at every table prior to making the first pull. I doubt that you even look at any tables and parameters before you made the first pull. Do you even know what injectors he was running prior to your first pull? Did you verify parameters were set correctly? Oh wait, you have no concept of calibration so if it "works" its fine by you.
Gotta say one thing Steve, I can tell your pissed off, and I'm happy for it. Makes you actually come out into the wild instead of hiding behind the magic curtain of "conservative numbers" and makes you deal with the fact that you're delivering low power numbers while wearing the kings hat of "God of tuning" on this forum.
Pissed? Hardly, I do find it humorous that you are still going off on me and your "finding" was without giving any solid proof other than hp numbers. Have you done an ABA analysis to conclude your theory? Probably not. You probably don't even know what that means. Go "google" it.
As for me wearing the crown of "god of tuning"??? I never called myself the "god of tuning" I have learned a great deal talking to other tuners and I will continue to study new software as I go. Need a list for what I know so far?
(Accel Gen 7, AEM EMS, AEM (FIC) Fuel/Ignition Controller, A'PEXi Power FC/FC Edit (all cars/model), Autronic SMC, SM2 and SM4 , Cobb Accessport for Rx8/R35/MS6, MS3, G35/350Z/370Z, Subaru (Streettuner), Dynojet Power Commander / all models, DSM/ECM Link, EcuFlash for Subaru and Mitsubishi vehicles, EFI Live, Electromotive Tec 3 and Tec 3R, F.A.S.T. and F.A.S.T. XFI, GReddy Emanage and Emanage Ultimate, Haltech E6X(K), F10X, E6GMX, E8, E11v2 and Platinum 1000/2000, Pro, Haltech F10 Fuel Controller, Haltech Interceptor and Miniceptor, Hondata S300, Flash Pro and K-Pro, HP Tuners, Hydra EMS 2.5/2.6/2.7, Link G4, MAF Translator Pro, MAF Translator GenII and MAF Translator, MAP ECU I/II, Megasquirt, Mircotech LT8, LT10, LT12, MoTec M4, M48, M400, M600, M800 and M880, Neptune, Pro EFI, Rtek, SAFC or VAFC, SCT Flash, Turbo XS UTEC, UpRev, Wolf EMS)
However, I do dare to say that I have tuned more Rx7s in the US than any shop/person. I have approximately 10.6Mb of customer files in my database just on Power FC alone. This doesn't include all the vehicles I have tuned (domestic, euro and Import) and different formats of ECU. It would be stupid for me to tell you do the math on my combined files when other systems have different file size. Do the math or "google" how many files that is on PowerFc.
05-30-13 | 06:31 PM
#35
Thread Starter
Back in the BOOST Game
iTrader: (15)
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 698
Likes: 1
From: Chicago IL
Now those are the comments I was expecting. Power comes on smooth and predictable.
As far as back and forth... that wasnt my intention. I was going for some good comments on the power curve and setup. If you are interested we can get into those details.
As far as back and forth... that wasnt my intention. I was going for some good comments on the power curve and setup. If you are interested we can get into those details.
05-30-13 | 07:08 PM
#36
Talk all the **** you want Kan, all that matters is results, I got them, you didn't, done... If you want to continue this then call me out in another part of the forum.
Don I know I apologized to you over the phone for hijacking this thread, but seriously, sorry about that. and like I said above I'm done.
It was a pleasure and a honor to tune such a well built car and by well built I truly mean it. To have all the performance with all the creature comforts, I truly am jealous. Enjoy it man :-)
Don I know I apologized to you over the phone for hijacking this thread, but seriously, sorry about that. and like I said above I'm done.
It was a pleasure and a honor to tune such a well built car and by well built I truly mean it. To have all the performance with all the creature comforts, I truly am jealous. Enjoy it man :-)
05-30-13 | 08:34 PM
#37
Rotary Freak
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 0
From: fort worth, tx, usa
Don, I too wanted to apologized on this. There are a couple of things that concern me.. I dont recall stopping at 16psi on your car. I remembered tuning up to 18psi and showed no gain which is why I suggested the exhaust system may be the restriction. I recalled that you have a 20psi boost gauge. You should look into getting another gauge to verify the boost pressure. If the dyno truly reflects the 18psi that I think it is, then you are probably running 2psi higher than recorded on the dyno chart. The map sensor calibration is correct, find out what the peak value is and compare that to a new gauge.
422whp does seemed high giving the boost pressure indicated on the dyno chart and the restriction I saw with minimal gain above it.
422whp does seemed high giving the boost pressure indicated on the dyno chart and the restriction I saw with minimal gain above it.
05-31-13 | 03:53 PM
#38
Thread Starter
Back in the BOOST Game
iTrader: (15)
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 698
Likes: 1
From: Chicago IL
Steve we did make a run at 18 but to your point saw minimal gain. We then dialed the boost back to 16psi since the extra 1.5 PSI wasn't really worth the power gains and the extra stress. The boost gauge is indeed 20PSI and I am in process of changing it, however the Commander settings align very closely to what the Dyno Stated in reading 21.95 PSI.
Bear in mind I had two runs with Ball Joint that achieve 505 RWHP back to back with similar MAX Booooost readings 21.95 and 21.78 I believe.
I will do more verification but I am pretty sure we are solid here. One other note. Joe pointed out to me that I should have a direct Vacuum line for my Wastegate (I had it T'd with my Water Injection when I first tuned) and when I provided it its own vac line, my boost level dropped from 16psi to 14psi as the wastegate was responding from it own line without the Water tank pressurization etc... I am not sure if that factored into the 2psi in question, but everything seemed to line up from my changes from the PFC to boost before the new dyno run with Joe and during.
Bear in mind I had two runs with Ball Joint that achieve 505 RWHP back to back with similar MAX Booooost readings 21.95 and 21.78 I believe.
I will do more verification but I am pretty sure we are solid here. One other note. Joe pointed out to me that I should have a direct Vacuum line for my Wastegate (I had it T'd with my Water Injection when I first tuned) and when I provided it its own vac line, my boost level dropped from 16psi to 14psi as the wastegate was responding from it own line without the Water tank pressurization etc... I am not sure if that factored into the 2psi in question, but everything seemed to line up from my changes from the PFC to boost before the new dyno run with Joe and during.
06-23-13 | 08:31 PM
#39
damn, thats a bold statement to make. I came across this thread just cruising the forum and the same way you stand up for your clients, steve's client (i'm just one of hundreds) would probably step in for him....
saying that someone doesnt stand for this or that is, in my opinion, just bad business practice. I had steve tune my car. first time out, i had an idea that the clutch was gonna be the weakness as power levels increased. Sure enough clutch gave out, slipped as if it wasnt even there and my fear came to reality. this had nothing to do with the tune. i brought the car home, fixed/replaced/upgraded parts then went back to steve. this time around with a new ecu, per steve's recommendation. within 2 minutes, not even close to exaggeration, my car idled like factory. we got it on the dyno, and after a few hours had it running smoother than it has ever ran. idles rock solid at 900 rpm and carries smoothly all the way to rev limit, and i am talking smoother than hot butter. this map was done a year ago. steve knows i drive my car without mercy. this same map he did for me has me running on the same engine with no problems.
the time i was in his shop, steve walked me thru the changes he was making, explaining whats going on, even going as far as repairing some odds and ends on my car. when a question comes up regarding my car, i call or text to get his input. steve has even logged into my ecu from his laptop on dallas, while i drink a beer in my garage in el paso.
so to say that steve doesnt treat customers properly during tuning is a bunch of crap on your part man. this is just unprofessional regardless of situation.
btw, he went as far as insisting i stay at his place in order to save me some money on hotel costs....and even went as far as letting me drive his road race 7....i only wish there were longer stretches of road that day!!
one thing i can say is that steve knows whats up....tundra is faster than titan.......Lol.
09-06-13 | 05:31 PM
#41
Gotta give Steve his props. The man knows his stuff, has tuned all of my rx7's and any fault with them I will gladly say was my fault alone. Got our 1000hp gtr shop car purring like a kitten plus many many more happy campers.Don't know who you are bro, and I can tell you, you sound like you're looking stripes. .wouldn't give you the time of day with all this bs you started.
01-07-14 | 09:53 PM
#42
Gotta give Steve his props. The man knows his stuff, has tuned all of my rx7's and any fault with them I will gladly say was my fault alone. Got our 1000hp gtr shop car purring like a kitten plus many many more happy campers.Don't know who you are bro, and I can tell you, you sound like you're looking stripes. .wouldn't give you the time of day with all this bs you started.
Last edited by Ball joint; 01-07-14 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Clarification on customer need.
01-08-14 | 08:31 AM
#43
Then don't give me the time of day, I only started this to give my perspective, take from it what you will. My prior words and results speak for themselves; Don's car is still running strong today, he is now happy with the car since I flew out and made the necessary corrections. Regardless of this old argument that's all I care about right now; my customer is happy.
03-06-16 | 06:04 PM
#44
Thank you very much for the compliments, it was a pleasure working with you and and I'm glad I was able to get you the numbers your last tuner couldn't.
Just to clarify, I had to rebuild and scale Don's base map from scratch as the last tuner did not rescale his map for anything over 17psi. Consequently I had Don running 100 octane unleaded as a safety measure to protect his investment while I rebuilt his map. The 100 octane in combination with the 600cc's of water being injected caused breakup at high RPM.
We later put in 12 gallons of 93 octane and this cured the ignition breakup issue; as the lower octane was easier to ignite.
Once again, congratulations Don, I hope you enjoy the car and I'm happy I could get you want you wanted.
Just to clarify, I had to rebuild and scale Don's base map from scratch as the last tuner did not rescale his map for anything over 17psi. Consequently I had Don running 100 octane unleaded as a safety measure to protect his investment while I rebuilt his map. The 100 octane in combination with the 600cc's of water being injected caused breakup at high RPM.
We later put in 12 gallons of 93 octane and this cured the ignition breakup issue; as the lower octane was easier to ignite.
Once again, congratulations Don, I hope you enjoy the car and I'm happy I could get you want you wanted.
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