BryanDowns

iTrader: (2)

I am attempting to decide which way I want to go.

I want the car to handle better, however I do not want the car so stiff I cant stand riding around in it.

10/8 kind of scare me in terms of ride quality because 560ftlbs/450ftlbs sounds REALLY high to me. 450ftlbs/331ftlbs sounds high as well, but much better to me. I also ran across a thread (which I cant find right now to reference... ) with what seemed to be a well known FD guy saying that 450/330 would be his preference. Lastly, he mentioned that the old Tein HA (pre-flex) were 8/6 (or 450/331)

1) What is the ride like w/ 560/450?
2) What is the ride like w/ 450/331?


Is it the FD suspension geometry that causes the actual force on the wheel/chassis to be alot lower than the rated 560, or is it that FD guys like stupid stiff rides? For reference I had a Miata w/ Ground Controls which was around 450F/3xxR and it slowly but surely caused the interior of the car to rattle itself to death. I do NOT want that on my FD.

I appreciate any help

NeedFD

10F
8R

i'm running them and they're just fine, (daily driven) not as harsh as the RA/HA

http://www.tein.com/flexdamp.html

10/559
SQ100-01175

8/448
SQ080-01175

rynberg

Go with the 8/6....there's no reason to go stiffer for any kind of street-driven FD.

POM HB

I agreed with rynberg. I had Mazdaspeed coilover and it was considered 'soft'. Still too stiff for regular everyday use imo. IIRC, the spring rate was somewhere around 8/6 as well.

It's about sacrafy in FD. If you want the car to really stick, you'll have to live with stiff. I ride on my friend 330i with coilover. It was way softer than my FD, but still almost can hand with the FD. I was quite mad

darkslide750

I hate to hijack, but hows the tein flex on the road course? Using the 10/8. Is it enough?

ReadyKW

I went with the 8/6 and am glad I did. The ride is very reasonable in almost all situations. I wouldn't want to hit a dip with a cup of coffee in my hands though.

rynberg

Stiffer does not equal faster or more grip. I guarantee that 99% of FD owners would be better/faster with the 8/6 vs the 10/8.

neofreak

I have 10/8 Flexes on my FD, and I live in SF, the ride is fine. In fact, most people can't tell that the car is any stiffer than stock. Even when I have gals along there are no complaints.

(I specifically asked them)

Had 8/6 been available when they were first released, I probably would have gotten them.

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

I have 10/8's on my car... I don't drive it on the street much, but when I do (and I remember to set the adjustment to full soft) I'm always surprised how nice the ride actually is.

Feels like a boat if I forget to set them hard for the first session out at the track.

I agree with others. If you're not taking it to the track there's no reason not to get the softer setup.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

GooRoo (or others)

When you DO set 'em hard for the track, is it a significant difference? Are they great on track... as in.. better than a similarly sprung Koni/GC setup?

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

First of all, I'm not the knowledgeable car setup guy. That's one of the places I'd like to get better at next year... Basically I have just one track setup and run it like that all the time.

That said, I can tell you what I've heard and what I do.

Howard Coleman said that the Tein Flex and one other Tein shock setup that they no longer sell (HA maybe?) were valved and sprung well for a FD. I'm fairly sure that he was talking about the older system, where there was only one option for spring rate. The harder one. I do know that he tested the springs with his shock tester and gave them the thumbs up.

He also has said that you should run about 10 clicks from full soft in the front, and 8 clicks from full soft in the back, so that's what I generally run to start on all tracks.

If I:

Put (or accidentally leave) the shocks on soft and drive on the track...

The car feels slow to transfer weight in the corners, meaning I have to be more careful on turn in, otherwise when I transition from braking to turning I will lose the back end (car always has oversteered a substantial amount) because it isn't set yet. Car feels like it rolls more, although that may just be because it takes a while to get to full lean. I definitely have to be more careful, and therefore my times are slower.

If the track is wet I intensionally set the susp on full soft, otherwise the car will feel *extremely* low on grip... basically the weight transfers too fast and that combined with the low grip threshold means you can't feel when you are getting close to the edge of traction.

Put the shocks on 10/8 F/R and drive on the track...

Car feels pretty good... Still over steers, but it's manageable to me. Once you're to the middle of the corner and can get the back set with a little power you can steer with the throttle through the exit. (FUN!!!) Occasionally to try to dial out some of the oversteer on smaller tracks I will up the front shocks another 2 notches... It's hard for me to tell the difference, but I think it feels slightly better.

Put (or accidentally leave) the shocks on 10/8 F/R and drive on the street...

Car feels good on excellent roads, but is very jarring over all the bumps that normally aren't a big deal. Big bumps/dips feel like the car is going to blow a shock or break something in the suspension.

Put the shocks on full soft and drive on the street

Car actually feels pretty good, relatively smooth. Certainly can corner better than stock touring setup, though my memory of that is jaded because i think mine had some sort of failure. All but the biggest bumps are not jarring, although you can definitely tell the medium->large ones are there. Generally when I set it to full soft I'm surprised at how good it actually feels to cruise. I have to be careful in turns though, because the tires are never warm, and on top of that it takes a bit of time to transfer the weight.

I do have another test point too... I've driven Damian's track car on the street and track as well... He has JIC FLT-A2's on his car with very high spring rates... I think it's something like 900/800 F/R or whatever and he cranks his adjustment down relatively far... I think 12/10 F/R. His car basically feels like a go cart in that there's no time between moving the wheel and the car starting to turn.... Mine takes just a split second to dive and then go. I get out of his car and into mine and it always feels like a slow heavy crappy beast. Hehehe There is other factors there, like tire profile/construction, car weight, bushings etc. but I can definitely attribute some of that to the spring rate and valving on the shocks. His car even full soft on the street is pretty violent over bumps.

As a data point, I also know that on a relatively flat corner and good asphalt surface the setup I was running would get to 1.25-1.3+ lateral g's according to my GTech.

Now, the things that I don't understand are:

When I change the shocks and make them a little harder to dial out some oversteer, does that change my overall grip threshold in any way?
Should I be changing spring rates, overall or for specific tracks?
Is there any valving I could change to increase overall grip?

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

It was the Tein HA which apparently was the same as the RSRs

https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=13

Here is a cut and paste from the thread
<begin>
run RS*Rs... no longer available 432 front and 378 rear. i consider that rate to be close to optimum for combo street and track.

as it turns out, RS*Rs were just rebadged Tein HAs. which are now Tein Flex. 560 front and 450 rear is the current Flex rate.

i consider 560/450 to be the upper end of an acceptable aggressive street/track spring rate.
<end>

That being said, I ran the RSRs on roads around the burbs of NYC and thought it was too stiff and jarring on the streets I drove on. Especially on expansion joints. Steering felt more direct and immediate as Andy noted compared to Konis with H&R springs. RSRs also broke away much sooner in the wet than with the softer Koni/H&R setup.

I haven't gotten the opportunity to track the car as often as I'd wish so Konis with H&Rs fit my current needs.

darkslide750

This question is for GooRoo. Do you have any anti-roll bar upgrades. I was thinking about this oversteering issue and that is where my car has a real problem also. I essentially only track my car and would like to find an ideal setup to maximize grip. I am running 275/40/17 RA-1's on all corners.

rynberg

From your other thread, you are getting oversteer because of your equal and very high spring rates....900/900 is insane! Just dropping the rears to 700 or so would go a long way in making your car better balanced, but you really need softer rates all around to increase grip.

As an experiment, I am running 600/550 right now.....too much oversteer for me. I can't put the power down out of slow corners AT ALL. I honestly think my Honda Accord daily driver can accelerate harder around typical city driving because of this. Completely unacceptable in my book and I did not have this effect with my previous 400/290 springs.

Zebb

Spring rates are far from everything when it comes to over and understeering. Look at the RE-Amemiya car for example. They run 16F and 18R. I would have said that this is ok as long as you run with fatter tires in the rear, but they dont. Thats really strange. Do you think they run with a sway bar at the rear? I doubt it...

There are many ways to compensate for different spring rates. If you run with close to stock alignment and sway bars i understand that the car is oversteering. I have the same problem. It helps if i lower the tire pressure in the rear and set my 99-spec wing at maximum angle, but its not enoght. I have also tried using more camber on the rear wheels than the front. That helps but its a strange setup. Btw, i run with used 235/17" Dunlop racing slicks.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I really like the "ballance" of my car with 500/400# springs. What I would like is better stability, and better transitions, and a bit more control/tunability.

The rest of my setup is Koni yellows, manual steering/aftermarket wheel, PFS sway bars, and 18x10's w/ 285/30's. Except for toe/trailing arms, i've got 100% original bushings at 100k miles, so I'm going to start with a replacement set and see where that gets me.

However, I was thinking a "real" coilover that was engineered as a unit might offer a slightly more trackworthy setup at one end, whilst being equal or a little better on the street at the other end. I also want durability... there's no way I'm going to get AD's and then have to rebuild them every year.

rynberg

Peter, the Zeals I am running have great and truly adjustable damping curves. They are extremely well made (as they should be for the astronomical price). I have seen the shock dyno tests for my exact serial numbers and they look good, much better than those I've seen posted for JIC for example (the JIC would make you cry!).

While I do have too much oversteer with these rear springs (which I "knew" going in, but went through the experiment anyway), the turn-in with these Zeals at 600 fronts is amazing. Even with the shocks set to full soft, there is very little slop (more so at the rear). The ride on the street is surprisingly good until you hit a real bump or dip (to be expected). The car is actually quite compliant at full-soft without bouncing all over the place. The difference in low-speed coordination between the shock/spring is night-and-day better over the Koni/HKS spring combo I was running before.

I can't wait to get these 550 rear springs out and get some 450s in...that should restore the balance quite a bit.

BryanDowns

iTrader: (2)

Well... I bite the bullet and got Flex's w/ 8F/6R or 450F/335R. Hopefully with the 245F/275R tire setup I have I wont have an oversteer happy setup like some are complaining about. If anything I'd think that would be an understeer setup, which is really what I think I want given that I have power on tap to make it oversteer whenever I please.

Also hopefully with the spring rate the car will be very compliant on the street, and stiff enough to have fun at autox's.

I'll update eventually once the car is on the road

namasan

Yes, there is a noticable difference between the settings. I've been running the flex (10/8) w/ edfc for a few years around noVA/DC and with the variety of roads we have around here, it's really nice to be able to adjust the settings on the fly.

They performed great at VIR & autoX!!! excellent control and transition between turns. Definitely not too soft for the track. I'm in herndon...pm me if u want a ride sometime.

rynberg

I think you'll be happy, Bryan.

DamonB

When it comes to general front vs rear balance of the car the spring rates are the most fundamental element except for tire size.

Creating a balanced car and creating a balanced car with optimal grip are two entirely different animals. The setup on the car can be completely screwed up and I can get it balanced, but it would still be dog slow.

DamonB

You have to keep in mind when you feel the shocks and when you feel the springs. The shocks only do anything when the pistons inside them are moving, so you only feel them when the suspension is moving (transitioning). The shocks are dominant at turn in, as the chassis dives during braking, when you go to the power out of the corner etc. When the chassis is at a steady state the springs are dominant.

Shocks determine how quickly weight transfers across the chassis. Springs have no impact on this.

As for tuning here's what I feel:

As you brake and turn in load will transfer from rear to front (shocks), the chassis will dive at some rate (shocks), the chassis will settle at its new front end low ride height under braking (springs), you begin to come off the brakes and the front end begins to rise (shocks), the car will turn in and lean while beginning to transfer load across the chassis (shocks), the chassis will settle again at some angle as it corners (springs and bars), you get on the power and transfer weight off the front and onto the rear (shocks).

Adjustable shocks allow you to do many things to the car, but you can easily screw the car up with them if misguided.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Hey, that's right nice of you... I'd love a ride. I've actually ridden in very few FD's besides my own, so it's my only frame of reference.

It sounds like Flex's might be the ticket for me unless I want to blow big on Zeals. I just want to be sure they're actually much better than my Koni/GC combo, or a if I just got my koni's revalved.

Zebb

True. True.

But is a 4:3 relation the ultimate way to go? As i mentoined before; RE-Amemiya use 16kg in the front and 18kg rear. And they run 58 seconds or something at Tsukuba. And thats with a 380 hp FD...

I havent seen many companys in japan using softer springs at the rear on their racing coilovers. Yupp, i think its very strange and i want to know how they can balance a car with spring rates like that.


I think you will need at least 3 degree camber in the rear and 1 degree front to compensate. The stock camber isent sooo far away.

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

I have not upgraded the roll bars, however I did upgrade the front mounts because mine were bent when I bought the car. I got the billet ones from Widefoot/David Breslau.

I don't view oversteer as a problem per-say, but I would like to do a few things to bring up rear grip (without hurting front).

1) Bigger rear wheels/tires
2) Lighten the car
3) ???