Ohlins for FD3S
03-19-08, 09:09 PM
#26
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What you have said is partly true. Racing shocks are desined to be maintained and revalved by the racer. Companies like Penske do a very nice job of setting up their shocks right out of the box and most likely will never have to be revlaved, just rebuilt. Less expensive shocks either can't be revlaved/rebuilt or they have to be sent out to do so. With that being said, I think we have come to the conclusion that single adjusable "sport" shocks like Tokico, Koni Yellow, and GAB Super R are a compromise and no matter how well they are valved or setup, they just won't perform like a high dollar race shock. Besides, I've never heard of anyone slapping on a set of high dollar race shocks and complaining about the car not performing as well as their single adjustable sport shocks. My point that if you buy your shocks from a reputable shop like Tripoint Engineering, they should be setup well enough out of the box so the end user doesn't have to do all they research that is required to set them up properly.
03-21-08, 10:25 PM
#27
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Well..I'm a bit unsure of just what part of my comments are untrue.
but I suppose I could expand my feelings on the subject, unless your willing to either learn how to maintain and adjust the shocks OR pay someone to do it for you you may as well just get some off the shelf sport shocks since you will not be able to get the maximum benefit of race shocks with out proper knowledge of how they work.
all shocks race or not are a compromise what makes race shocks better is that they allow you to minimize the compromise via the ability to revalve them to match your specific needs for your specific conditions so unless you plan on making use of that I would recommend you save your money.
Silver7 "Companies like Penske do a very nice job of setting up their shocks right out of the box and most likely will never have to be revalved, just rebuilt."
So you just called up penske or since your in PA you just drove over and told them that you would like a set of shocks for your rx7 and they had just the right valving for your specific spring,bar,tire,track,driver...etc. Anita would get a chuckle out of that. jeez if it were that easy I wouldn't have a job.
Silver7 "I think we have come to the conclusion that single adjusable "sport" shocks like Tokico, Koni Yellow, and GAB Super R are a compromise and no matter how well they are valved or setup, they just won't perform like a high dollar race shock."
Who is WE? and just exactly how have you come to this conclusion... I would agree that on a race track with a good driver, engineer and proper race car you are correct but just how much better do you think a set of penskes with a ballpark curve is on a street car on the street or weekend track day with street tires? how do YOU judge how a "high dollar race shock" performs????
but I suppose I could expand my feelings on the subject, unless your willing to either learn how to maintain and adjust the shocks OR pay someone to do it for you you may as well just get some off the shelf sport shocks since you will not be able to get the maximum benefit of race shocks with out proper knowledge of how they work.
all shocks race or not are a compromise what makes race shocks better is that they allow you to minimize the compromise via the ability to revalve them to match your specific needs for your specific conditions so unless you plan on making use of that I would recommend you save your money.
Silver7 "Companies like Penske do a very nice job of setting up their shocks right out of the box and most likely will never have to be revalved, just rebuilt."
So you just called up penske or since your in PA you just drove over and told them that you would like a set of shocks for your rx7 and they had just the right valving for your specific spring,bar,tire,track,driver...etc. Anita would get a chuckle out of that. jeez if it were that easy I wouldn't have a job.
Silver7 "I think we have come to the conclusion that single adjusable "sport" shocks like Tokico, Koni Yellow, and GAB Super R are a compromise and no matter how well they are valved or setup, they just won't perform like a high dollar race shock."
Who is WE? and just exactly how have you come to this conclusion... I would agree that on a race track with a good driver, engineer and proper race car you are correct but just how much better do you think a set of penskes with a ballpark curve is on a street car on the street or weekend track day with street tires? how do YOU judge how a "high dollar race shock" performs????
Last edited by sereneseven; 03-21-08 at 10:31 PM.
03-25-08, 01:05 AM
#28
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OK ok easy guys.
while the 8760 is a great racing shock it is neither needed or intended for use on a street /track fun day car. here are is a little run down as to why.
the shim's used by penske while extremely accurate are also prone to being deformed and also fatigue quickly...some of this is also do to the pistons they use.
penkes fluid degrades in as little as a 2hr race.
the monoballs used in the eylets wear extremly fast
the anodize on the body is prone to being worn off by the piston which then eqeals contamination of the fluid...
bottom line if you have 5k sitting around and you don't mind spending $100 a rebuild and you are convinced you just have to have them then more power to you, I have three sets of these and theres a reason i have tokicko's on my 7. theres also a reason people pay me to service there shocks almost every time they get run.
while the 8760 is a great racing shock it is neither needed or intended for use on a street /track fun day car. here are is a little run down as to why.
the shim's used by penske while extremely accurate are also prone to being deformed and also fatigue quickly...some of this is also do to the pistons they use.
penkes fluid degrades in as little as a 2hr race.
the monoballs used in the eylets wear extremly fast
the anodize on the body is prone to being worn off by the piston which then eqeals contamination of the fluid...
bottom line if you have 5k sitting around and you don't mind spending $100 a rebuild and you are convinced you just have to have them then more power to you, I have three sets of these and theres a reason i have tokicko's on my 7. theres also a reason people pay me to service there shocks almost every time they get run.
04-16-08, 01:54 PM
#29
Rotary Enthusiast
So i have a 'parts' FD in my driveway.... i had a look at the coilovers it had today.. they are Aragosta's! So from what i read they are pretty darn good, this is exiting news because i was looking for a set of coilovers for my FD something around 8k/6k maybe tein ss or flex.. but now that i can score these Aragosta's i am stoked!
I have emailed Aragosta to see if they can rebuild these coilovers for me, and to see if they have any other spring. I see that amongst their equipment is a custom spring making machine! So ill keep you guys tuned.
=Ben
I have emailed Aragosta to see if they can rebuild these coilovers for me, and to see if they have any other spring. I see that amongst their equipment is a custom spring making machine! So ill keep you guys tuned.
=Ben
04-16-08, 08:26 PM
#30
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Silver7 "Companies like Penske do a very nice job of setting up their shocks right out of the box and most likely will never have to be revalved, just rebuilt."
So you just called up penske or since your in PA you just drove over and told them that you would like a set of shocks for your rx7 and they had just the right valving for your specific spring,bar,tire,track,driver...etc. Anita would get a chuckle out of that. jeez if it were that easy I wouldn't have a job.
If Penske can't set me up then I will buy them from Tripoint and have them do it.
Silver7 "I think we have come to the conclusion that single adjusable "sport" shocks like Tokico, Koni Yellow, and GAB Super R are a compromise and no matter how well they are valved or setup, they just won't perform like a high dollar race shock."
Who is WE? and just exactly how have you come to this conclusion...
"We" is everyone I know who used to use these shocks and have since switched to something higher end because they don't work very well.
I would agree that on a race track with a good driver, engineer and proper race car you are correct but just how much better do you think a set of penskes with a ballpark curve is on a street car on the street or weekend track day with street tires? how do YOU judge how a "high dollar race shock" performs????
I am basing my comments on personal experience and knowledge I have gained talking to other track people who have higher end suspension systems. I have never heard of anyone who has spent the money on set of Penskes, Motons, JRZs, etc and complained that the performance wasn't worth the expense. I have owned Koni sports and Gab Super Rs and have recently driven another RX7 that has JRZs. There is without a doubt a notable difference in the ability to dampen the springs on the track and on the street. I personally dont have a problem with rebuilding my shocks when needed, the car is not daily driven and if I damage something I will just drive on down to Reading, PA and pick up the replacement parts to get them running like new.
So you just called up penske or since your in PA you just drove over and told them that you would like a set of shocks for your rx7 and they had just the right valving for your specific spring,bar,tire,track,driver...etc. Anita would get a chuckle out of that. jeez if it were that easy I wouldn't have a job.
If Penske can't set me up then I will buy them from Tripoint and have them do it.
Silver7 "I think we have come to the conclusion that single adjusable "sport" shocks like Tokico, Koni Yellow, and GAB Super R are a compromise and no matter how well they are valved or setup, they just won't perform like a high dollar race shock."
Who is WE? and just exactly how have you come to this conclusion...
"We" is everyone I know who used to use these shocks and have since switched to something higher end because they don't work very well.
I would agree that on a race track with a good driver, engineer and proper race car you are correct but just how much better do you think a set of penskes with a ballpark curve is on a street car on the street or weekend track day with street tires? how do YOU judge how a "high dollar race shock" performs????
I am basing my comments on personal experience and knowledge I have gained talking to other track people who have higher end suspension systems. I have never heard of anyone who has spent the money on set of Penskes, Motons, JRZs, etc and complained that the performance wasn't worth the expense. I have owned Koni sports and Gab Super Rs and have recently driven another RX7 that has JRZs. There is without a doubt a notable difference in the ability to dampen the springs on the track and on the street. I personally dont have a problem with rebuilding my shocks when needed, the car is not daily driven and if I damage something I will just drive on down to Reading, PA and pick up the replacement parts to get them running like new.
04-21-08, 01:23 PM
#31
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I've had my Zeal shocks revalved and I must say it was a pretty painful process.
Zeal has a US office in California which can service their shocks and change valving, but they don't even have a shock dyno at that location. Their dyno is in Japan, so if you want them to plot the shocks to confirm their work, it's much more expensive because they have to be shipped over and back. I have a very good local suspension shop which I had dyno the shocks before and after the changes, but of course this adds time and cost to the process.
Here's the worst part - the tech at the US office incorrectly assembled the rear shocks TWICE! First time, the separator piston height was set wrong so the rear shocks only had about 1" of travel before they bottomed out, so I had to ship them back. A week or so later I get them back and they're getting more travel, but still well short of 3". At this point, the US office decides that they need to be shipped to the home office in Japan to be correctly assembled. They did so, and ran them on the dyno and tested stroke before shipping them back. Clearly not having a dyno, and not even bothering to test how much stroke the shocks have before shipping back to the customer, results in experiences like mine.
I got what I wanted with the valving, but it took a couple months and much frustration to achieve that. I kept thinking if I just had Penskes or something along those lines, I could have tried 20 different changes in the time it took.
Sorry for the rant but I thought it was applicable to this discussion.
Zeal has a US office in California which can service their shocks and change valving, but they don't even have a shock dyno at that location. Their dyno is in Japan, so if you want them to plot the shocks to confirm their work, it's much more expensive because they have to be shipped over and back. I have a very good local suspension shop which I had dyno the shocks before and after the changes, but of course this adds time and cost to the process.
Here's the worst part - the tech at the US office incorrectly assembled the rear shocks TWICE! First time, the separator piston height was set wrong so the rear shocks only had about 1" of travel before they bottomed out, so I had to ship them back. A week or so later I get them back and they're getting more travel, but still well short of 3". At this point, the US office decides that they need to be shipped to the home office in Japan to be correctly assembled. They did so, and ran them on the dyno and tested stroke before shipping them back. Clearly not having a dyno, and not even bothering to test how much stroke the shocks have before shipping back to the customer, results in experiences like mine.
I got what I wanted with the valving, but it took a couple months and much frustration to achieve that. I kept thinking if I just had Penskes or something along those lines, I could have tried 20 different changes in the time it took.
Sorry for the rant but I thought it was applicable to this discussion.
04-24-08, 01:34 AM
#32
I've had my Zeal shocks revalved and I must say it was a pretty painful process.
Zeal has a US office in California which can service their shocks and change valving, but they don't even have a shock dyno at that location. Their dyno is in Japan, so if you want them to plot the shocks to confirm their work, it's much more expensive because they have to be shipped over and back. I have a very good local suspension shop which I had dyno the shocks before and after the changes, but of course this adds time and cost to the process.
Here's the worst part - the tech at the US office incorrectly assembled the rear shocks TWICE! First time, the separator piston height was set wrong so the rear shocks only had about 1" of travel before they bottomed out, so I had to ship them back. A week or so later I get them back and they're getting more travel, but still well short of 3". At this point, the US office decides that they need to be shipped to the home office in Japan to be correctly assembled. They did so, and ran them on the dyno and tested stroke before shipping them back. Clearly not having a dyno, and not even bothering to test how much stroke the shocks have before shipping back to the customer, results in experiences like mine.
I got what I wanted with the valving, but it took a couple months and much frustration to achieve that. I kept thinking if I just had Penskes or something along those lines, I could have tried 20 different changes in the time it took.
Sorry for the rant but I thought it was applicable to this discussion.
Zeal has a US office in California which can service their shocks and change valving, but they don't even have a shock dyno at that location. Their dyno is in Japan, so if you want them to plot the shocks to confirm their work, it's much more expensive because they have to be shipped over and back. I have a very good local suspension shop which I had dyno the shocks before and after the changes, but of course this adds time and cost to the process.
Here's the worst part - the tech at the US office incorrectly assembled the rear shocks TWICE! First time, the separator piston height was set wrong so the rear shocks only had about 1" of travel before they bottomed out, so I had to ship them back. A week or so later I get them back and they're getting more travel, but still well short of 3". At this point, the US office decides that they need to be shipped to the home office in Japan to be correctly assembled. They did so, and ran them on the dyno and tested stroke before shipping them back. Clearly not having a dyno, and not even bothering to test how much stroke the shocks have before shipping back to the customer, results in experiences like mine.
I got what I wanted with the valving, but it took a couple months and much frustration to achieve that. I kept thinking if I just had Penskes or something along those lines, I could have tried 20 different changes in the time it took.
Sorry for the rant but I thought it was applicable to this discussion.
05-03-08, 02:01 PM
#33
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Therein lies the big conflict.
Many of the high-end coilovers, like Penske, Advance Design, possibly JRZ are great on track, and I've heard even great on the street—but if they require a rebuild every year (or sooner) to maintain that greatness, they aren't worth it.
Even though my car is predominantly a track car (that I drive on weekends and to and from the track), "track" means HPDE and occasional time trials, not national championship racing. I'd be upset if my shocks needed rebuilding any sooner than 5 years. That'a a major PITA to R&R, ship two ways, and pay $100+/shock.
It's this aspect that there doesn't seem to be alot of hard data on for all of the various options. Much as I'd love the best of the best, realistically I'd rather have 80% of the track performance and then still have 75% of it four years later without having rebuilt them every friggin' six months.
Many of the high-end coilovers, like Penske, Advance Design, possibly JRZ are great on track, and I've heard even great on the street—but if they require a rebuild every year (or sooner) to maintain that greatness, they aren't worth it.
Even though my car is predominantly a track car (that I drive on weekends and to and from the track), "track" means HPDE and occasional time trials, not national championship racing. I'd be upset if my shocks needed rebuilding any sooner than 5 years. That'a a major PITA to R&R, ship two ways, and pay $100+/shock.
It's this aspect that there doesn't seem to be alot of hard data on for all of the various options. Much as I'd love the best of the best, realistically I'd rather have 80% of the track performance and then still have 75% of it four years later without having rebuilt them every friggin' six months.
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