JoeD

...it had 265/40-17s in the front, and 295/35-18s in the back??

i ask this because this one guy i know is convinced that the Z06 is the best handling production car today. he bases his claims strictly on skidpad and slalom #s. (my face looked exactly like this throughout the entire conversation: ). i dint really want to waste my time bringing up the FD and its G numbers and everything, so i just kinda said "uh huh, yup" the whole time...but it just made me wonder...

around how many Gs will a STOCK FD pull on the skidpad with 265/40-17s in the front and 295/35-18s in the back (same as the Z06...pretend that the tires/rims will fit without any suspension modifications).

1.01?? 1.02??...more???

SleepR1

Are we talking same tires as Z06, or can we mount sticky Hoosiers (hee hee)

Seriously, I think tire choice would make a difference in the numbers. Also would we be going clockwise or counter? It seems we might stick better with CCW vs CW.

I think we need to conduct this test. Perhaps SCC already has figures? Didn't they do numbers an FD with 275/40-17 BFG G-Force KDs mounted on 10 x 17 Purner wheels, in their handling show down test in last month's issue of SCC? The skid pad numbers for the FD were over 1 G, as I recall? The black FD pretty much cleaned shop, with Rhys Millen behind the wheel. Of course Rhys could probably clean up with a Miata

Blue Goose

It did clean house, but it had swaybars and an adjustable suspension I think...here, hold on...ok, front adjustable anti roll, Koni double adjustables on all four, G-force KD's at 278/40zr17, 1.035 G's, 72.4 MPH slalom.

Nathan Kwok

The SCC contest winner pulled 1.035g (two direction average) on the skidpad and 72.4mph through the slalom with 275/40s all around on BFG gForces (street tires). It killed everyone in the test, however the Z06 wasn't one of the contenders. I'd say this is about as good as you can get without going to stickier tires, and if you read the test, tire size is only one factor. Suspension setup is more important. Despite this, I honestly think the Z06 is at least as good as if not better handling than the RX-7. Granted, I haven't driven one, but the numbers are better stock for stock, and now it is the Z06 that is dominating SS class Solo II and not the RX-7, and that says a lot. Just my 2 cents.

Johnny

Yes the Z06 is starting to dominated the SS class..the FD's are still doing well.... down over 100rwhp...

stock Z06 like jimlab's 350 rwhp and 350ish torque
stock FD.. 220ish rwhp and even less torque..

Cetchup

Dumb question:

What exactly is the "skidpad" and how is the test conducted?

SleepR1

has MONSTER low-end torque, which is GOOD for low speed slalom racing. I'd like to encounter a really good driver in a Z06 on a high speed circuit. So far the only Z06 owners I've encountered have been novices (too much car, and no driving skills--typical mid-life crisis scenario!).

SpeedRacer

There is a multi National Champion winner in Oregon Region who was driving a Z06 this year. He is an absolutely amazing driver to watch. He would almost always have top time of the day even faster than the mod cars. Anyways, was registered to race at Nationals, but for some reason or other he wasn't there. I'm sure he would have been a top contender.

KZ1

approx numebrs from top of my head.

regular models(TC base, pep) .94g
R2 .99g
R1 1.02g

I would comapre R1 figues to z06 as it is perforamcne package as well. ANother point is the Z06 ride is way harsher than R models. go drive in one, it is crazy how rough it is. plus they have huge tires. Put 18s on an FD, who knows, handling probably gets worse. depending if you do it right.

cheers

SleepR1

No Text

KZ1

stiffer shocks

DamonB

The C5 and Z06 have the advantage in Super Stock. I won't include my RX-7 in the "well driven" group but our Texas Region has many top drivers. One red RX-7 in particular is exceptionally well driven as are a couple C5's and a Z06. I would say the RX-7 is at a disadvantage over all of them, but especially on slow, tight courses where the V8 torque and wide rubber kills us. On high speed "roadcourse" type runs we stay much closer to them. Alas, we are loosing one RX-7 driver who will campaign a Miata this year. To my knowledge I will be the only one in SS, with another in ASP.

The RX-7 is still highly respected, but if the drivers and preparation of the car are on equal terms the Vettes have the upper hand.

maxcooper

All the various models from a single year (and probably not much difference between years) should have equivalent skidpad performance with the same tires. They didn't all come with the same tires, so that would explain any measured differences. It is steady state, and the shocks don't play into the test, which is the only difference between models for any given year besides the tires. I would assume that most cars have different tires on them now, and I would hope (though I know it isn't true) that owners would invest in top-quality Max Performace tires. Tires play a rather large role in vehicle performance, so don't skimp -- it isn't worth it.

Transient performance (shows up in AutoX times, in particular) would differ because of the shocks and weight. Ah weight, okay weight plays a role in skidpad performance, too, so that might help explain measured differences. I guess my point is just that shocks don't affect skidpad performance, so it wasn't the suspension differences that caused the differences in performance between the various models for a given year.

My (perhaps flawed) recollection of magazine tests was that the stock car pulled 0.95-0.99 Gs. I think the Z-06 might be the first car to pull 1.0G in magazine tests of stock cars.

-Max

KZ1

not true, the R1 was tested higher than z06, maybe not by all magazines, but by some for sure

peejay

Shocks don't add grip on a skidpad, they change how well things work in a transition though.

If you want more grip on the skidpad, change camber settings and put the widest, stickiest tires that will fit in your wheelwells and the widest rims that will work with them. And put a 500lb weight 20 feet inboard of the car
Seriously though, skidpad numbers only tell you how much the car can grip on a smooth surface on steady-state conditions... it says nothing about bumpy roads or how the car behaves on acceleration/braking or how well it recovers from a slide or how quickly it turns in etc etc etc.

KZ1

well, the major change to the R1 suspension from the touring, etc. is the shocks, strut braces, and Z rated tyres.

I don't know the dynamics of the results, but that is what they are.

peejay

As the commercial went... "It's gotta be THE SHOES!" Or in this case the tires!

Tires are the #1 thing you can change to add leech-like skidpad grip. The Z06 grips the skidpad better because they got rid of the hard-as-rocks (and about as grippy) run-flat tires and went with real performance hoops. Same with the R1 - if I'm not mistaken the normal FDs had crappy Bridgestones and the R1s had decent Pirellis.

SleepR1

Actually, all '93 R1s came from the factory with Bridgestone Expedia S-07s. It wasn't until the '94/'95 R2s that Mazda switched to Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetricos.

I've had 4 sets of the Expedia S-07s (including the originals), and believe me, the Expedia S-07s were far from "crappy".

The Expedia S-07's had an asymmetric and directional tread pattern. The outboard "chevron-shaped" tread blocks were sized LARGER than the inboard blocks. IMO, BFG G-Force KD's tread pattern is a DIRECT KNOCK-OFF of Bridgestone Expedia S-07's tread pattern.

The Expedias had a very soft rubber compound. With a combo of road, track, and autocross driving, the Expedias yielded no more than 10,000 miles per set. My current P-Zeros are still going strong after 13,000 miles, and I'll probably squeeze another 2,000 miles out of them before replacing the Pirellis with Bridgestone S-03s. Please note that I have a separate set of wheels and tires for the track now, so I'd bet the Pirellis would have burned up just as soon as the Expedias!

FWIW, I didn't switch to Pirelli until Tire Rack's inventory of the Expedia S-07s was completely exhausted. I loved the Expedias that much (despite the $209 each price!)

Also note that the '99 J-Spec Rx7 Type RZ comes from the factory with the Japan version of the Expedia S-07s called, "Potenza S-07", except in 235/45-17 and 255/40-17 sizes to fit the Type RZ's 8 and 8.5 x 17 wheels.