Coating SS brake lines with plastidip
01-22-03 | 06:38 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 9
From: Dallas, Texas
Coating SS brake lines with plastidip
Ok,
I finally found this stuff and sprayed it on my Goodridge SS brake lines....
www.plastidip.com
I had read on another thread about dirt getting into the braids of uncoated SS lines causing early failure...
I had already purchased my lines so couldn't find one that are coated. Mazdaspeed use to sell coated ones but apparently the sell the goodridge ones now anyways....
other fixes that I have heard of was shrink tubing...the only problem was that I couldn't find ones long enough or wide enough in diameter to go over the fittings...
with the plastidip (I got clear) I just kept spraying layer after layer....
My first 3 layers I held the can about 12" away like it recommended but I barely got a good coat...
The next 2 I held about 2 inches. This worked much better....I can clearly see a coat now over the braids, though this does "dull" the finish a little. The nice part about the clear is that you can still see the ss underneath...
All and all not bad for a couple bucks....
Hope that helps anyone with new SS lines....
I finally found this stuff and sprayed it on my Goodridge SS brake lines....
www.plastidip.com
I had read on another thread about dirt getting into the braids of uncoated SS lines causing early failure...
I had already purchased my lines so couldn't find one that are coated. Mazdaspeed use to sell coated ones but apparently the sell the goodridge ones now anyways....
other fixes that I have heard of was shrink tubing...the only problem was that I couldn't find ones long enough or wide enough in diameter to go over the fittings...
with the plastidip (I got clear) I just kept spraying layer after layer....
My first 3 layers I held the can about 12" away like it recommended but I barely got a good coat...
The next 2 I held about 2 inches. This worked much better....I can clearly see a coat now over the braids, though this does "dull" the finish a little. The nice part about the clear is that you can still see the ss underneath...
All and all not bad for a couple bucks....
Hope that helps anyone with new SS lines....
01-23-03 | 02:27 PM
#3
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Hmmm....
I think I am going to not coat them. I will probably let them like that. I think $60 every year or two year should be okay. Its just about as expensive as tranny/differential/engine oil change gonna cost.
Reza
I think I am going to not coat them. I will probably let them like that. I think $60 every year or two year should be okay. Its just about as expensive as tranny/differential/engine oil change gonna cost.
Reza
01-24-03 | 12:48 PM
#4
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,594
Likes: 0
From: Pittsburgh, PA
I have found that a simple piece of split loom tubing wrapped around the line will prevent the dirt from getting in there pretty damn good. And it comes right back off in about 2 seconds.
01-25-03 | 01:03 AM
#7
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
From: Was SoCal
The split loom that I've seen is a ribbed tube of black plastic, that has a lengthwise split. You can stuff wiring into it from the side of the tube. On a car, it's typically used to help route and shield wiring harnesses. I'm pretty sure that Mazda used some in my engine bay, but I'm too lazy to go look right now. It's not airtight or watertight-- so you'd want to make sure that you weren't trapping dirt & moisture between it and the brake line, but as Samps pointed out it's easy to remove, so you could inspect & clean fairly easily.
Now, here is some food for thought that I shamelessly copied from the TracQuest.com message board. I haven't verified any of this, but what the article says makes sense to me...
--- info starts below --------
TracQuest/Rennlist Discussion Board
Hve warned folks before to avoid these things
Posted By: Ray Calvo
Date: on 8/29/01 at 2:17 a.m.
In Response To: Folks, check your brake lines! (jyoteen)
Only times I've heard of or personally seen a brake line failure has been a stainless steel line. problem is they can't take infinite number of bending stresses at the junctions - and you can't easily check for imminent damage visually.
I tried them on my old '84 Turbo-Look. They did nothing for brake feel/performance in comparison to stock rubber lines. On the 993, am sticking to OE.
Read the following on the AudiWorld web site (www.audiworld.com)
----------------------------------------
Stainless Steel Brake Lines Primer Andrew Warren 1999
A few people have asked me to explain the difference between "DOT-approved" and non-approved stainless-steel brake lines. This explanation is pretty long, but I think it'll explain everything.
First, a quick explanation of what stainless-steel brake lines are:
The brake lines we're talking about are the flexible ones that connect between the hard lines (i.e., the inflexible tubing) in the car and the brake calipers on the wheels.
They've traditionally been made from rubber tubing, with steel or aluminum connectors crimped onto their ends. Nearly all passenger cars are shipped with rubber brake lines, and they hardly ever fail.
"Stainless-steel" lines are made of Teflon tubing, not rubber. Teflon has a number of advantages over rubber; the chief ones are that it doesn't expand under pressure and it doesn't deteriorate with age. It also resists high temperatures and is chemically inert, so it's compatible with all brake fluids.
However, Teflon is pretty fragile, so it has to be protected from physical damage (chafing, flying rocks, etc.). Although some manufacturers armor their Teflon hoses with Kevlar, most protect the Teflon with an external sheath of braided stainless-steel wire... So that's why armored Teflon hose is usually called "stainless-steel hose".
The ends of the hoses have to be securely attached to the brake calipers and the hard lines, so each hose is terminated by threaded hose-ends.
Those hose-end fittings can be attached to the hoses a couple of ways:
The cheap way is to crimp or swage them onto the hoses, like the fittings on rubber hoses. The more-expensive way is to use a two-piece replaceable hose end that captures a portion of the hose between an inner nipple and a concentric outer socket. These hose-ends (often referred to generically as "Aeroquip fittings" because they were invented by the Aeroquip Corporation) are used EVERYWHERE on aircraft and race cars.
Ok... So what's required for a stainless-steel brake line to be DOT-approved?
First, I should point out that there may be lines available that meet all the DOT specs, but are non-approved only because they haven't been submitted to the DOT for approval.
Manufacturers can't legally say that their lines are approved - even if they KNOW that the lines meet all the DOT specifications - without actually submitting them to the DOT.
For that reason, stainless-steel brake lines can fall into three categories:
"DOT approved" - These lines have been submitted to and approved by the US Department of Transportation. "non-approved" - These lines don't have a DOT approval, either because they don't meet the specs or simply because they haven't been submitted for testing. "non-conforming" - These lines are non-approved (and non- approvable) because they fail to meet the DOT specs. Ok...
The safety standard that brake hoses must meet is called Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 106; if you have a copy of the Code of Federal Regulations handy, it's in Title 49, Volume 5, Subpart B, Section 571.106.
The section that applies to hydraulic hoses is about six pages long, and it covers everything from labeling requirements to pressure and temperature testing.
One important thing to note -this'll come up later when I explain why the "best" hose assemblies can't be DOT approved- is that each of the requirements in the Standard carries the same weight; if a hose fails to meet ANY requirement, it won't be approved.
Hypothetically, therefore, a hose which met all the performance specs but was labeled in lowercase letters (the Standard requires block capitals) would fail to be approved.
Also, some of the features required by the Standard provide a certain amount of "idiot-proofing", but at the expense of absolute maximum strength or safety... It's the same sort of mandated mediocrity that forced Ferrari to replace the stock 5-point safety harnesses in US-spec F40s with those ridiculous motorized-mouse single shoulder belts.
Anyway...
Most of the "performance" specs in the Standard (i.e., burst strength, compatibility with brake fluids, tensile strength, expansion under pressure, etc.) are easily met by all halfway-decent hydraulic brake hoses, but there are a couple of tests and requirements that are particularly difficult for stainless-steel hoses to meet.
Those requirements are:
1. The manner in which the fittings must be attached to the hose.FMVSS 106 specifies that "Each hydraulic brake hose assembly shall have PERMANENTLY ATTACHED brake hose end fittings which are attached by deformation of the fitting about the hose BY CRIMPING OR SWAGING." [Emphasis added]
The idea is that, since crimped-on fittings can't be loosened, a stupid end-user won't be able to screw with and weaken them.
This is a good thing from a product-liability point of view, I guess... But it means that any hose assembly which uses the very best fittings available -like the nipple-and-cutter Aeroquip Super Gem or Earl's Speed Seal- is non-conforming and CAN'T be DOT-approved.
2. The "whip-resistance" test. This test involves mounting the hose on a flexing machine, pressurizing it to 235 psi, then running it at 800 RPM for 35 hours.
When steel-armored hoses were run through that test, it was found that the hoses tended to bend right at the junction between the hose and the hose-ends. After a while, the stainless-steel braid would start to tear, and the broken wires would cut into the inner Teflon liner, causing it to fail.
One brake-hose manufacturer fought to modify the whip test, claiming that their stainless-steel hose could easily comply with the test if only a supplemental support were used during testing to move the flexing-point away from the hose-ends.
The NHTSA ruled on the issue in August, 1996, deciding to allow manufacturers to use the supplemental support... But only on the condition that the same support was used when the hoses were installed on a real car.
FMVSS 106 was modified to include the use of the support, and the new rules went into effect in October, 1996.
"DOT-approved" stainless-steel brake hoses went on sale immediately thereafter.
So now you know what DOT approval entails. For information on why you would want (or might not want) stainless-steel brake hoses on your car, see read on...
There are three reasons to install stainless-steel brake lines:
1. They look racy.
2. They don't swell like rubber lines, so they can potentially firm up your brake pedal.
3. If you're doing a lot of off-road driving, the stainless-steel braid may protect your lines from being punctured by rocks or whatever.
Here's the thing, though: Since stainless-steel lines don't bulge as they age, and since the inner Teflon lining is hidden behind the braid, there's no easy way to inspect the lines for warning signs of imminent failure.
This is no big deal on a race car, since the lines are (or should be) replaced at least once a season. On a street car, where most people are likely to let YEARS go by without even looking at their lines, it can be an issue.
Plenty of people, therefore, warn that you should use rubber lines instead of stainless steel... They'll be happy to give you anecdotal evidence of steel lines simply bursting (or, more commonly, separating from their hose-ends) catastrophically and with no warning.
I haven't seen any references to this sort of failure that mentioned whether the lines were:
REAL Aeroquip or Earl's hose, attached properly to the CORRECT hose-ends, and installed properly on the car. I define "correct hose-ends" as Earl's Speed-Seal (the new name for Fluor-O-Seal) or Aeroquip Super Gem, and "real hose" as Earl's Speed-Flex (the new name for Fluor-O-Flex) or Aeroquip... uhh... I forget their brand name.
Anyway, Speed-Seal hose-ends work just like Earl's Swivel-Seal ends; the hose-end can swivel after assembly. The nipple/cutter assembly on these ends (and on Aeroquip Super Gem ends) was specifically developed to prevent blowoff of the hose-end... I'm still waiting to hear from anyone who has firsthand knowledge of one of these hose assemblies coming apart, and until I hear from that person, I run "real" stainless-steel lines on my car and replace them regularly.
THIS IS IMPORTANT: The lines that your performance-parts distributor will sell you are made with no-name hose from God-knows-where (probably Taiwan), and the hose-ends are just swaged-on fittings that are an invitation for disaster. I won't put these on my car, and I don't recommend that you put them on yours, either.
There are now "DOT-approved" stainless-steel lines. I have no idea what they are, but I suspect that they STILL use cheap-*** crimped-on hose ends. Until my suspicions are disproven, I won't put THEM on my car, either.
If you do decide to put stainless-steel lines on your car, you need to be aware of a few things:
1. When you install them, you must make SURE that they can't kink, twist, or stretch under any combination of wheel droop, bump, or (for the front wheels) steer.
2. The stainless-steel outer braid will cut through anything against which it rubs, so you have to make sure that the lines don't rub back and forth over anything important.
3. Stainless steel lines have been known to fail when dirt gets between the outer braid and the Teflon lining... As the braid moves back and forth, the dirt abrades the Teflon and can make it rupture. If you look at stainless-steel lines on motorcycles, you'll see that many of them are encased in plastic tubing, apparently in an effort to eliminate this problem. The tubing also helps considerably with the abrasion issue mentioned above.
Now, here is some food for thought that I shamelessly copied from the TracQuest.com message board. I haven't verified any of this, but what the article says makes sense to me...
--- info starts below --------
TracQuest/Rennlist Discussion Board
Hve warned folks before to avoid these things
Posted By: Ray Calvo
Date: on 8/29/01 at 2:17 a.m.
In Response To: Folks, check your brake lines! (jyoteen)
Only times I've heard of or personally seen a brake line failure has been a stainless steel line. problem is they can't take infinite number of bending stresses at the junctions - and you can't easily check for imminent damage visually.
I tried them on my old '84 Turbo-Look. They did nothing for brake feel/performance in comparison to stock rubber lines. On the 993, am sticking to OE.
Read the following on the AudiWorld web site (www.audiworld.com)
----------------------------------------
Stainless Steel Brake Lines Primer Andrew Warren 1999
A few people have asked me to explain the difference between "DOT-approved" and non-approved stainless-steel brake lines. This explanation is pretty long, but I think it'll explain everything.
First, a quick explanation of what stainless-steel brake lines are:
The brake lines we're talking about are the flexible ones that connect between the hard lines (i.e., the inflexible tubing) in the car and the brake calipers on the wheels.
They've traditionally been made from rubber tubing, with steel or aluminum connectors crimped onto their ends. Nearly all passenger cars are shipped with rubber brake lines, and they hardly ever fail.
"Stainless-steel" lines are made of Teflon tubing, not rubber. Teflon has a number of advantages over rubber; the chief ones are that it doesn't expand under pressure and it doesn't deteriorate with age. It also resists high temperatures and is chemically inert, so it's compatible with all brake fluids.
However, Teflon is pretty fragile, so it has to be protected from physical damage (chafing, flying rocks, etc.). Although some manufacturers armor their Teflon hoses with Kevlar, most protect the Teflon with an external sheath of braided stainless-steel wire... So that's why armored Teflon hose is usually called "stainless-steel hose".
The ends of the hoses have to be securely attached to the brake calipers and the hard lines, so each hose is terminated by threaded hose-ends.
Those hose-end fittings can be attached to the hoses a couple of ways:
The cheap way is to crimp or swage them onto the hoses, like the fittings on rubber hoses. The more-expensive way is to use a two-piece replaceable hose end that captures a portion of the hose between an inner nipple and a concentric outer socket. These hose-ends (often referred to generically as "Aeroquip fittings" because they were invented by the Aeroquip Corporation) are used EVERYWHERE on aircraft and race cars.
Ok... So what's required for a stainless-steel brake line to be DOT-approved?
First, I should point out that there may be lines available that meet all the DOT specs, but are non-approved only because they haven't been submitted to the DOT for approval.
Manufacturers can't legally say that their lines are approved - even if they KNOW that the lines meet all the DOT specifications - without actually submitting them to the DOT.
For that reason, stainless-steel brake lines can fall into three categories:
"DOT approved" - These lines have been submitted to and approved by the US Department of Transportation. "non-approved" - These lines don't have a DOT approval, either because they don't meet the specs or simply because they haven't been submitted for testing. "non-conforming" - These lines are non-approved (and non- approvable) because they fail to meet the DOT specs. Ok...
The safety standard that brake hoses must meet is called Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 106; if you have a copy of the Code of Federal Regulations handy, it's in Title 49, Volume 5, Subpart B, Section 571.106.
The section that applies to hydraulic hoses is about six pages long, and it covers everything from labeling requirements to pressure and temperature testing.
One important thing to note -this'll come up later when I explain why the "best" hose assemblies can't be DOT approved- is that each of the requirements in the Standard carries the same weight; if a hose fails to meet ANY requirement, it won't be approved.
Hypothetically, therefore, a hose which met all the performance specs but was labeled in lowercase letters (the Standard requires block capitals) would fail to be approved.
Also, some of the features required by the Standard provide a certain amount of "idiot-proofing", but at the expense of absolute maximum strength or safety... It's the same sort of mandated mediocrity that forced Ferrari to replace the stock 5-point safety harnesses in US-spec F40s with those ridiculous motorized-mouse single shoulder belts.
Anyway...
Most of the "performance" specs in the Standard (i.e., burst strength, compatibility with brake fluids, tensile strength, expansion under pressure, etc.) are easily met by all halfway-decent hydraulic brake hoses, but there are a couple of tests and requirements that are particularly difficult for stainless-steel hoses to meet.
Those requirements are:
1. The manner in which the fittings must be attached to the hose.FMVSS 106 specifies that "Each hydraulic brake hose assembly shall have PERMANENTLY ATTACHED brake hose end fittings which are attached by deformation of the fitting about the hose BY CRIMPING OR SWAGING." [Emphasis added]
The idea is that, since crimped-on fittings can't be loosened, a stupid end-user won't be able to screw with and weaken them.
This is a good thing from a product-liability point of view, I guess... But it means that any hose assembly which uses the very best fittings available -like the nipple-and-cutter Aeroquip Super Gem or Earl's Speed Seal- is non-conforming and CAN'T be DOT-approved.
2. The "whip-resistance" test. This test involves mounting the hose on a flexing machine, pressurizing it to 235 psi, then running it at 800 RPM for 35 hours.
When steel-armored hoses were run through that test, it was found that the hoses tended to bend right at the junction between the hose and the hose-ends. After a while, the stainless-steel braid would start to tear, and the broken wires would cut into the inner Teflon liner, causing it to fail.
One brake-hose manufacturer fought to modify the whip test, claiming that their stainless-steel hose could easily comply with the test if only a supplemental support were used during testing to move the flexing-point away from the hose-ends.
The NHTSA ruled on the issue in August, 1996, deciding to allow manufacturers to use the supplemental support... But only on the condition that the same support was used when the hoses were installed on a real car.
FMVSS 106 was modified to include the use of the support, and the new rules went into effect in October, 1996.
"DOT-approved" stainless-steel brake hoses went on sale immediately thereafter.
So now you know what DOT approval entails. For information on why you would want (or might not want) stainless-steel brake hoses on your car, see read on...
There are three reasons to install stainless-steel brake lines:
1. They look racy.
2. They don't swell like rubber lines, so they can potentially firm up your brake pedal.
3. If you're doing a lot of off-road driving, the stainless-steel braid may protect your lines from being punctured by rocks or whatever.
Here's the thing, though: Since stainless-steel lines don't bulge as they age, and since the inner Teflon lining is hidden behind the braid, there's no easy way to inspect the lines for warning signs of imminent failure.
This is no big deal on a race car, since the lines are (or should be) replaced at least once a season. On a street car, where most people are likely to let YEARS go by without even looking at their lines, it can be an issue.
Plenty of people, therefore, warn that you should use rubber lines instead of stainless steel... They'll be happy to give you anecdotal evidence of steel lines simply bursting (or, more commonly, separating from their hose-ends) catastrophically and with no warning.
I haven't seen any references to this sort of failure that mentioned whether the lines were:
REAL Aeroquip or Earl's hose, attached properly to the CORRECT hose-ends, and installed properly on the car. I define "correct hose-ends" as Earl's Speed-Seal (the new name for Fluor-O-Seal) or Aeroquip Super Gem, and "real hose" as Earl's Speed-Flex (the new name for Fluor-O-Flex) or Aeroquip... uhh... I forget their brand name.
Anyway, Speed-Seal hose-ends work just like Earl's Swivel-Seal ends; the hose-end can swivel after assembly. The nipple/cutter assembly on these ends (and on Aeroquip Super Gem ends) was specifically developed to prevent blowoff of the hose-end... I'm still waiting to hear from anyone who has firsthand knowledge of one of these hose assemblies coming apart, and until I hear from that person, I run "real" stainless-steel lines on my car and replace them regularly.
THIS IS IMPORTANT: The lines that your performance-parts distributor will sell you are made with no-name hose from God-knows-where (probably Taiwan), and the hose-ends are just swaged-on fittings that are an invitation for disaster. I won't put these on my car, and I don't recommend that you put them on yours, either.
There are now "DOT-approved" stainless-steel lines. I have no idea what they are, but I suspect that they STILL use cheap-*** crimped-on hose ends. Until my suspicions are disproven, I won't put THEM on my car, either.
If you do decide to put stainless-steel lines on your car, you need to be aware of a few things:
1. When you install them, you must make SURE that they can't kink, twist, or stretch under any combination of wheel droop, bump, or (for the front wheels) steer.
2. The stainless-steel outer braid will cut through anything against which it rubs, so you have to make sure that the lines don't rub back and forth over anything important.
3. Stainless steel lines have been known to fail when dirt gets between the outer braid and the Teflon lining... As the braid moves back and forth, the dirt abrades the Teflon and can make it rupture. If you look at stainless-steel lines on motorcycles, you'll see that many of them are encased in plastic tubing, apparently in an effort to eliminate this problem. The tubing also helps considerably with the abrasion issue mentioned above.
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01-26-03 | 12:59 AM
#9
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
From: Was SoCal
Originally posted by 7racer
Yea that was the same thing that was posted on a previous thread...
That's what prompted me to coat my lines....
Yea that was the same thing that was posted on a previous thread...
That's what prompted me to coat my lines....
I've got some new SS lines to install. I'm going to give the spray a try too. My local Lowes didn't have clear, so I just picked up the black.
01-27-03 | 07:52 PM
#10
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
7racer,
when you install the lines, are they lining up perfectly?
I found that to line up properly, the lines need to twist a little bit.
This is worrying me, since the fitting may not hold with twisting.
Reza
when you install the lines, are they lining up perfectly?
I found that to line up properly, the lines need to twist a little bit.
This is worrying me, since the fitting may not hold with twisting.
Reza
01-27-03 | 10:19 PM
#11
Thread Starter
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 9
From: Dallas, Texas
Reza,
sorry I can't help you...
I don't have a garage and my brakes need rebuilt in the worst sort of way...
I am gathering parts and letting a local rotary mechanic (Don Marvel) fix my brakes and make sure everything is OK with the suspension.
I just need to get the rotors then make the appointment with Don.
Also, I have the JIC-FLT A2 coilovers like Jim Lab. These don't have that front mounting braket so will have to figure something else out.
Hopefully, everything will fit fine and Don will have some insights on the install. I'll let you know if I have the same problems....Hopefully I will learn a thing or two from Don.
sorry I can't help you...
I don't have a garage and my brakes need rebuilt in the worst sort of way...
I am gathering parts and letting a local rotary mechanic (Don Marvel) fix my brakes and make sure everything is OK with the suspension.
I just need to get the rotors then make the appointment with Don.
Also, I have the JIC-FLT A2 coilovers like Jim Lab. These don't have that front mounting braket so will have to figure something else out.
Hopefully, everything will fit fine and Don will have some insights on the install. I'll let you know if I have the same problems....Hopefully I will learn a thing or two from Don.
01-28-03 | 01:54 AM
#12
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
From: Was SoCal
Reza, I haven't installed my lines yet, but they are sitting here on the desk by my computer. The ends are swivel type ends that allow the hose to turn independently of the fitting. I bought these lines through either Racing Beat or Mazdatrix (can't remember), but they come with Racing Beat's instructions. The lines and fittings are manufactured by Earl's.
This is just a suggestion, but if you have any doubts about installing these on your own, why not take them to a experienced mechanic for installation? There are several FD experienced shops in (what looks to me like) the Fremont area. You could watch the shop install the lines, check clearances, etc., and then tackle it yourself the next time around. And hopefully you won't have nagging doubts about whether you've installed them correctly.
This is just a suggestion, but if you have any doubts about installing these on your own, why not take them to a experienced mechanic for installation? There are several FD experienced shops in (what looks to me like) the Fremont area. You could watch the shop install the lines, check clearances, etc., and then tackle it yourself the next time around. And hopefully you won't have nagging doubts about whether you've installed them correctly.
01-28-03 | 02:06 AM
#13
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Yea...I am not too sure myself right now.
I talk to someone on autocross the other day, that his friend brake lines failed.
The guy installed it himself, and it failed at the fitting.
Since then I start thinking what would cause it to fail at fitting. I searched here, not much info about failing at fitting, more at the lines themselves.
What I can think of is the fitting and lines are twisted.
I remember when I installed mine, I had to twist the line a little bit by about 1/4 turn to fit the hex.
I am going to call MazdaMotorsports tommorow, and get some explanation.
Any other ideas are welcomed.
Reza
I talk to someone on autocross the other day, that his friend brake lines failed.
The guy installed it himself, and it failed at the fitting.
Since then I start thinking what would cause it to fail at fitting. I searched here, not much info about failing at fitting, more at the lines themselves.
What I can think of is the fitting and lines are twisted.
I remember when I installed mine, I had to twist the line a little bit by about 1/4 turn to fit the hex.
I am going to call MazdaMotorsports tommorow, and get some explanation.
Any other ideas are welcomed.
Reza
01-28-03 | 10:22 PM
#14
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 373
Likes: 1
From: California
Originally posted by reza
7racer,
when you install the lines, are they lining up perfectly?
I found that to line up properly, the lines need to twist a little bit.
This is worrying me, since the fitting may not hold with twisting.
Reza
7racer,
when you install the lines, are they lining up perfectly?
I found that to line up properly, the lines need to twist a little bit.
This is worrying me, since the fitting may not hold with twisting.
Reza
I got to watch them re-make my actual brake lines; they had to rotate the fitting about 90 degrees. And for my trouble, they made a new set with a transparent (or see-thru) red silicone covering, or sheath. They also adjusted the length slightly for my liking. It was the coolest feeling seeing something custom made just for me and my baby (my FD ofcourse
)Anyhow, bottom line is that you should never force the fitment of these braided lines. You would be asking for trouble. Why take a chance with your life and pride & joy car? I know the way I drive, I frequently brake at the last second. Having a line suddenly burst would definitely cause a collision. Also, the line would be more likely to burst in a high pressure situation (very hard peddle pressure) as opposed to low pressure, casual driving.
If it doesn't fit PERFECTLY, send it back.
-Tom
01-29-03 | 03:16 AM
#15
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
This is the response I got from MazdaComp
Guys,
This is the respond I got from MazdaComp.
TomRX7 - Do you have phone number of Goodridge in your area? I went to their website, but could not find any california branch info.
Thanks,
Reza
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Burrow [mailto:BBurrow@mazdausa.com]
Sent: Tue 1/28/2003 10:44 AM
To: Reza Kertadjaja
Cc:
Subject: RE: Brake Lines
I'm sorry, but we don't have any other. We have been selling these for years
and have never had a problem. I'm not going to read the thread, as I believe
that many people get themselves into a frenzy reading these, filled with
postings from non-informed people. I can tell you from years of selling
these, that they do hold up well in racing, and normally only need to be
replaced after wrecks.
Brian K. Burrow
MAZDASPEED MOTORSPORTS
DEVELOPMENT
949-222-2652
800-435-2508
www.mazdaspeedmotorsports.com
Check out the new Mazda6
-----Original Message-----
From: Reza Kertadjaja [mailto:reza@aitna.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:09 AM
To: Brian Burrow
Subject: RE: Brake Lines
Brian,
I believe the plastic/rubber coating is good to the hoses.
They serve the purpose of preventing dirt getting between the ss braided and
the teflon hose inside.
Look at this thread about the SS braided coating, some people have to do it
themselves.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...4dee0c34c5f004
11&threadid=151489
There are also some comment about SS braided lines if you read the above
thread.
The other trouble is connecting to the hard brake lines, they have to twist by about 1/4 to 1/2 turns to fit properly into the support. It is nice enough that the fitting has the shape for the support, but just not properly angled.
Do you have another Goodridge SS braided lines that are coated with rubber/plastic?
My usage will be for autocross and road racing. I just don't feel comfortable.
Thank you for your help on this matter,
Reza
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Burrow [mailto:BBurrow@mazdausa.com]
Sent: Tue 1/28/2003 7:15 AM
To: Reza Kertadjaja
Cc:
Subject: RE: Brake Lines
Reza, The sales order number that you gave does not have enough numbers.
Some of the lines that we carry have a rubbery coating. It seems to be on the lines that we have made by Goodridge. It's put on as more of a decorative item, which holds the name of the company, and can be
ordered in a variety of colors. I think the only ones we carry that have that currently are the Miata lines and Protégé. It is not needed. The strength of the line, is in the plastic hose that is within the steel braiding. The steel braiding reinforces the plastic line to keep it from expanding when pressure is applied to the brakes. If you have trouble connecting the lines to the supports, you can use tie wraps instead of the clips.
Brian K. Burrow
MAZDASPEED MOTORSPORTS DEVELOPMENT
949-222-2652
800-435-2508
www.mazdaspeedmotorsports.com
Check out the new Mazda6
-----Original Message-----
From: Reza Kertadjaja [mailto:reza@aitna.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:26 AM
To: Brian Burrow
Subject: Brake Lines
Importance: High
Hello,
I have Sales Order #01-86903, I have received the brake lines. They appear to be different than what people had told me.
I was told that MazdaComp/Mazda Motorsports SS braided Brake lines are covered in teflon/rubber hose.
The one I received does not.
I am currently in the process of installing them. I found that the front lines fitting are not good. They have to be twisted about 1/2 turns to make it fit into the hex/round shape support. I think this is not good.
Do you have any idea? I feel that I have received an inferior product, while other people at www.rx7club.com forum actually has spoken good words about MazdaComp brake lines.
I have 1993 RX-7, where the brake lines to be installed.
Thank you for your help, I really appreciate any help.
Reza Kertadjaja
This is the respond I got from MazdaComp.
TomRX7 - Do you have phone number of Goodridge in your area? I went to their website, but could not find any california branch info.
Thanks,
Reza
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Burrow [mailto:BBurrow@mazdausa.com]
Sent: Tue 1/28/2003 10:44 AM
To: Reza Kertadjaja
Cc:
Subject: RE: Brake Lines
I'm sorry, but we don't have any other. We have been selling these for years
and have never had a problem. I'm not going to read the thread, as I believe
that many people get themselves into a frenzy reading these, filled with
postings from non-informed people. I can tell you from years of selling
these, that they do hold up well in racing, and normally only need to be
replaced after wrecks.
Brian K. Burrow
MAZDASPEED MOTORSPORTS
DEVELOPMENT
949-222-2652
800-435-2508
www.mazdaspeedmotorsports.com
Check out the new Mazda6
-----Original Message-----
From: Reza Kertadjaja [mailto:reza@aitna.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:09 AM
To: Brian Burrow
Subject: RE: Brake Lines
Brian,
I believe the plastic/rubber coating is good to the hoses.
They serve the purpose of preventing dirt getting between the ss braided and
the teflon hose inside.
Look at this thread about the SS braided coating, some people have to do it
themselves.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...4dee0c34c5f004
11&threadid=151489
There are also some comment about SS braided lines if you read the above
thread.
The other trouble is connecting to the hard brake lines, they have to twist by about 1/4 to 1/2 turns to fit properly into the support. It is nice enough that the fitting has the shape for the support, but just not properly angled.
Do you have another Goodridge SS braided lines that are coated with rubber/plastic?
My usage will be for autocross and road racing. I just don't feel comfortable.
Thank you for your help on this matter,
Reza
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Burrow [mailto:BBurrow@mazdausa.com]
Sent: Tue 1/28/2003 7:15 AM
To: Reza Kertadjaja
Cc:
Subject: RE: Brake Lines
Reza, The sales order number that you gave does not have enough numbers.
Some of the lines that we carry have a rubbery coating. It seems to be on the lines that we have made by Goodridge. It's put on as more of a decorative item, which holds the name of the company, and can be
ordered in a variety of colors. I think the only ones we carry that have that currently are the Miata lines and Protégé. It is not needed. The strength of the line, is in the plastic hose that is within the steel braiding. The steel braiding reinforces the plastic line to keep it from expanding when pressure is applied to the brakes. If you have trouble connecting the lines to the supports, you can use tie wraps instead of the clips.
Brian K. Burrow
MAZDASPEED MOTORSPORTS DEVELOPMENT
949-222-2652
800-435-2508
www.mazdaspeedmotorsports.com
Check out the new Mazda6
-----Original Message-----
From: Reza Kertadjaja [mailto:reza@aitna.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:26 AM
To: Brian Burrow
Subject: Brake Lines
Importance: High
Hello,
I have Sales Order #01-86903, I have received the brake lines. They appear to be different than what people had told me.
I was told that MazdaComp/Mazda Motorsports SS braided Brake lines are covered in teflon/rubber hose.
The one I received does not.
I am currently in the process of installing them. I found that the front lines fitting are not good. They have to be twisted about 1/2 turns to make it fit into the hex/round shape support. I think this is not good.
Do you have any idea? I feel that I have received an inferior product, while other people at www.rx7club.com forum actually has spoken good words about MazdaComp brake lines.
I have 1993 RX-7, where the brake lines to be installed.
Thank you for your help, I really appreciate any help.
Reza Kertadjaja
01-29-03 | 07:42 PM
#16
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 373
Likes: 1
From: California
Re: This is the response I got from MazdaComp
Originally posted by reza
(guy from Mazdaspeed)....Some of the lines that we carry have a rubbery coating. It seems to be on the lines that we have made by Goodridge. It's put on as more of a decorative item which holds the name of the company, and can be ordered in a variety of colors. It is not needed. The strength of the line, is in the plastic hose that is within the steel braiding. The steel braiding reinforces the plastic line to keep it from expanding when pressure is applied to the brakes.
(guy from Mazdaspeed)....Some of the lines that we carry have a rubbery coating. It seems to be on the lines that we have made by Goodridge. It's put on as more of a decorative item which holds the name of the company, and can be ordered in a variety of colors. It is not needed. The strength of the line, is in the plastic hose that is within the steel braiding. The steel braiding reinforces the plastic line to keep it from expanding when pressure is applied to the brakes.
As for him stating the steel covering keeps the teflon tubing from expanding, that sounds like nonsense to me. If you've ever played with a braided hose covering (like the hot rodders that cover their radiatior hoses), as the length of the hose gets longer, the diameter decreases. Conversely, as the length gets shorter, the diameter increases. Point is, the braided covering does not offer much as far as expansion control. And teflon tubing is quite ridgid to begin with. If it were ever to expand- it would stay that way. The stuff is like plastic.
....if you have trouble connecting the lines to the supports, you can use tie wraps instead of the clips
He expects you to jimmy rig your lines with tie wraps? I don't think so. He needs to understand this is not a race car that will see one day on the track and then undergo a full inspection. You payed for the lines, and if they are clocked wrong, they need to be fixed- simple as that, no further discussion needed.
I suggest if they are indeed Goodridge lines, deal with them directly. They are very cool and they know every once in a while they screw up. They will gladly replace them. They are put together by hand, HUMAN made, so it has to be expected some times. Here is their info:
GOODRIDGE (USA) INC
20309 GRAMERCY PLACE
TORRANCE • CA 90501
TEL: +1 (310) 533 1924
FAX: +1 (310) 618 0909
Email: ussales@goodridge.net
http://www.goodridge.net/index.html
You have to be firm with people when you are getting the short end of the stick.
Good luck buddy,
Tom
01-29-03 | 07:51 PM
#17
Thread Starter
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 9
From: Dallas, Texas
Good post Tom!
If I run in to this same issue with my install I will certainly call them...
Reza can you take digital pic so I can see what you are experiencing??
This is a good thread with good original info...Four stars!
If I run in to this same issue with my install I will certainly call them...
Reza can you take digital pic so I can see what you are experiencing??
This is a good thread with good original info...Four stars!
01-30-03 | 02:38 AM
#18
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Hmm...
Its hard to show that I have to twist the braided lines.
Unless I open them and show the offset between the hex on braided and hex on the support near caliper/hard lines.
I just want them to exchange it with a good ones.
7racer, did you have any problem?
Even if you have someone install for you, do they complain about the lines.
Thanks for the help Tom,
I plan to autocross each event this year. I went only 6 times last year because of car problem. Now I want to run each event.
And add to the mix, searspoint, thunderhill, laguna seca, and other tracks once a month.
track is where the brake really needed, 100+mph to 25mph stops.
Reza
Its hard to show that I have to twist the braided lines.
Unless I open them and show the offset between the hex on braided and hex on the support near caliper/hard lines.
I just want them to exchange it with a good ones.
7racer, did you have any problem?
Even if you have someone install for you, do they complain about the lines.
Thanks for the help Tom,
I plan to autocross each event this year. I went only 6 times last year because of car problem. Now I want to run each event.
And add to the mix, searspoint, thunderhill, laguna seca, and other tracks once a month.
track is where the brake really needed, 100+mph to 25mph stops.
Reza
01-30-03 | 11:25 AM
#19
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 373
Likes: 1
From: California
Originally posted by reza
Hmm...
Its hard to show that I have to twist the braided lines.
Unless I open them and show the offset between the hex on braided and hex on the support near caliper/hard lines. I just want them to exchange it with a good ones. Thanks for the help Tom, Reza
Hmm...
Its hard to show that I have to twist the braided lines.
Unless I open them and show the offset between the hex on braided and hex on the support near caliper/hard lines. I just want them to exchange it with a good ones. Thanks for the help Tom, Reza
Also, the best way would be if you have the factory rubber lines, and you can stand to not have your car for 4 days, send the factory lines and the Goodridge lines together over to Goodridge and they will exactly match the angles.
-Tom
01-31-03 | 04:46 PM
#20
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
I called Goodridge, and they want me to ship everything to them.
Looks like I am not going to be able to drive for a while...
They said the lines suppose to line up without any twisting at all.
Reza
Looks like I am not going to be able to drive for a while...
They said the lines suppose to line up without any twisting at all.
Reza
02-01-03 | 01:00 AM
#21
Thread Starter
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 9
From: Dallas, Texas
Reza,
keep me posted on what they are going to do!
Will they coat the lines for you too?
Also I have the JIC coilovers...is it twisting both at the stock mounting position and at the hard lines? Is that what you mean? If that is the case it might not be as much of a problem for me as the JIC's Don't have that stock mount.
Do the rears line up correctly? Or was all the lines slightly off?
keep me posted on what they are going to do!
Will they coat the lines for you too?
Also I have the JIC coilovers...is it twisting both at the stock mounting position and at the hard lines? Is that what you mean? If that is the case it might not be as much of a problem for me as the JIC's Don't have that stock mount.
Do the rears line up correctly? Or was all the lines slightly off?
02-01-03 | 10:10 PM
#24
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Rear uses flare nuts and banjo.
Front uses flare nuts on both end.
This ss braided brake lines has been a problem since the beginning, I am hoping to solve the problem soon.
Any help about replacing the hard lines from ABS to right front wheel well?
Reza
Front uses flare nuts on both end.
This ss braided brake lines has been a problem since the beginning, I am hoping to solve the problem soon.
Any help about replacing the hard lines from ABS to right front wheel well?
Reza
02-06-03 | 12:40 PM
#25
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Update on Goodridge repair for SS braided brake lines.
Crap!
I sent my lines on Monday overnight to Goodridge.
The friday before I talked to Jorge, and he gave me RGA# for returns, but then I got no news until today.
I am anxious, so I called them today, and the receptionist said Jorge no longer worked there. And no one is looking after my brake lines.
I told them I need to autocross the car on Sunday. I hope I can go if they give me back the lines.
Kinda tight situation now...
Reza
Crap!
I sent my lines on Monday overnight to Goodridge.
The friday before I talked to Jorge, and he gave me RGA# for returns, but then I got no news until today.
I am anxious, so I called them today, and the receptionist said Jorge no longer worked there. And no one is looking after my brake lines.
I told them I need to autocross the car on Sunday. I hope I can go if they give me back the lines.
Kinda tight situation now...
Reza