to4r
02-27-04, 10:09 PM
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to4r
hey whats up guy.
I have just installed an HKS TO4R turbo kit.My engine is a rebuilt and has street port with 3mm apex seals.What i wanted to know is what size injectors i should go with primary and secondary, and i also wanted to know what stand alone i should go with hks f-con v pro or apexi PFC?I'm only planning on making 420 hp.
thanks
I have just installed an HKS TO4R turbo kit.My engine is a rebuilt and has street port with 3mm apex seals.What i wanted to know is what size injectors i should go with primary and secondary, and i also wanted to know what stand alone i should go with hks f-con v pro or apexi PFC?I'm only planning on making 420 hp.
thanks
02-28-04, 03:35 AM
#5
NorCal 7's Co-founder
550 or 720 primaries and 1600 secondaries. The 1300cc injectors are nothing but bored out 850's. So you run a much higher risk of the part failing where as the 1600cc injectors are a stock bosch part and are much more reliable. And before I get flamed, I know that tons of people use the 1300's with no problems, but it's just not a risk I would be willing to take. As far as EMS goes, I'd use the Apex'i PFC just because I don't know of anyone using the HKS F-con V pro. I know that the software for it is updated more than any other platform and all the Japanese tuners rave about it, but I don't know a single person in the States that can tune it. Hope that helps some.
Zach
Zach
02-28-04, 10:50 AM
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Folks are giving you a "canned" answer here.
If you want to know for yourself, you can just do the math and calculate the required fuel consumption for that horsepower level and see how much fuel/min your car would require. Based on that number, you select appropriate injectors for your application and make an informed decision for yourself based on those facts.
Basically, you need to size the injectors so that you have some "headroom" at the max fuel delivery requirement so the injectors are not operating at max duty cycle (IIRC, 85% is about as much as you want to have them running when you are "dumping" fuel for maximum requirements).
As for the EMS, you need to go with what you are comfortable with tuning, or have a local tuner that is familiar with. For 90-99% of folks here, that would be the PowerFC. However, it is possible to have a running car with a simpler/cheaper fuel management, you just have to REALLY know what you are doing (probably 1-10% of car owners).
Regards,
--Ashraf
If you want to know for yourself, you can just do the math and calculate the required fuel consumption for that horsepower level and see how much fuel/min your car would require. Based on that number, you select appropriate injectors for your application and make an informed decision for yourself based on those facts.
Basically, you need to size the injectors so that you have some "headroom" at the max fuel delivery requirement so the injectors are not operating at max duty cycle (IIRC, 85% is about as much as you want to have them running when you are "dumping" fuel for maximum requirements).
As for the EMS, you need to go with what you are comfortable with tuning, or have a local tuner that is familiar with. For 90-99% of folks here, that would be the PowerFC. However, it is possible to have a running car with a simpler/cheaper fuel management, you just have to REALLY know what you are doing (probably 1-10% of car owners).
Regards,
--Ashraf
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02-28-04, 10:43 PM
#9
Originally posted by 1revn3rdgen
what cheaper fuel management would you suggest?
what cheaper fuel management would you suggest?
I would suggest you go with the Power FC, does wonders. Also the Haltech is an option that many people like.
02-29-04, 01:37 AM
#10
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Originally posted by 1revn3rdgen
what cheaper fuel management would you suggest?
what cheaper fuel management would you suggest?
It is possible, you can do it...now, it depends on if such a scheme "works" for you if it is really worth doing.
The question you should be asking is why are you wanting to go with a cheaper fuel management system. If it is because you can't afford something else, you might want to re-think your priorities, because, most likely, you can't really afford to do the single conversion to begin with, do it right, and not blow up your motor.
There is another thread here on costs to do single conversions. It would be a good idea to take that to heart and think again about what you are doing and if you can make your bank account and timeline match, because you may be saving for a while if you want to do the job right. As we all know, consequences of a poor conversion are most likely a blown motor and many more dollars spent on fixing it. Don't you think it is cheaper to spend the money ahead of time on the right equipment/tools/labor/dyno time instead of buying a new motor? I hope so...
To conclude:
A S-AFC or GReddy E-manage would do the trick for the fuel curve (I can't remember off-hand if the E-manage also does timing) if you are satisfied with running stock timing. These may be possible choices for those running conservative boost levels/airflow similar to the stock twins, as in a single turbo that is about the same as the stock twins running together. But the thing is, who decides to go single and buys a small single turbo?
The S-AFC is pretty easy to use, but so is the PFC Commander. With any non-stock fuel injection setup, it really isn't spending the money on the parts, it is spending the money on the tuning or your time (and possibly more money when you make mistakes) learning the EMS.
So, if you read this, it is a yes with many qualifiers. It just depends on your situation. Most folks end up with a signficantly larger turbo than stock and many other variables change, so most folks will need a standalone.
Regards,
--Ashraf
02-29-04, 04:00 AM
#11
NorCal 7's Co-founder
Well said. I have an S-AFC on my FC and love it. It's easy to use and read. However, like Ashraf said a T04R setup isn't something that many (if any) people keep around stock boost levels. So a stand alone EMS would probably be the way to go.
Zach
Zach
02-29-04, 05:23 PM
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I've e-mailed Knighsports since my car came with slight modifycations from them, to advice me on a 400hp setup
This is their reply:
If you want to get 400-450ps, we recommend you as follows;
Engine(13B super fine port, rough finished):\831,500JPY
Turbine kit TO4R,HKS : \465,000
Boost controller EVC,HKS :\69,800
Clutch kit Exedy twin plate :\119,800
Also you need to replace middle pipe.
Above price is not included your freight and shipping charge.
Important thing, we think that we can't make 4beat ECU for your spec.
Because we don't know your gas and your situation
Hope this helps!
This is their reply:
If you want to get 400-450ps, we recommend you as follows;
Engine(13B super fine port, rough finished):\831,500JPY
Turbine kit TO4R,HKS : \465,000
Boost controller EVC,HKS :\69,800
Clutch kit Exedy twin plate :\119,800
Also you need to replace middle pipe.
Above price is not included your freight and shipping charge.
Important thing, we think that we can't make 4beat ECU for your spec.
Because we don't know your gas and your situation
Hope this helps!
03-01-04, 01:03 AM
#13
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Originally posted by RX7TYPERS
Engine(13B super fine port, rough finished):\831,500JPY
Turbine kit TO4R,HKS : \465,000
Boost controller EVC,HKS :\69,800
Clutch kit Exedy twin plate :\119,800
...
Important thing, we think that we can't make 4beat ECU for your spec.
Because we don't know your gas and your situation
Engine(13B super fine port, rough finished):\831,500JPY
Turbine kit TO4R,HKS : \465,000
Boost controller EVC,HKS :\69,800
Clutch kit Exedy twin plate :\119,800
...
Important thing, we think that we can't make 4beat ECU for your spec.
Because we don't know your gas and your situation
03-01-04, 10:29 PM
#14
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Originally posted by bond007
I recall instances of folks running a single turbo with upgraded injectors on a chipped stock ECU, BUT, there are a lot of qualifiers for that.
It is possible, you can do it...now, it depends on if such a scheme "works" for you if it is really worth doing.
The question you should be asking is why are you wanting to go with a cheaper fuel management system. If it is because you can't afford something else, you might want to re-think your priorities, because, most likely, you can't really afford to do the single conversion to begin with, do it right, and not blow up your motor.
There is another thread here on costs to do single conversions. It would be a good idea to take that to heart and think again about what you are doing and if you can make your bank account and timeline match, because you may be saving for a while if you want to do the job right. As we all know, consequences of a poor conversion are most likely a blown motor and many more dollars spent on fixing it. Don't you think it is cheaper to spend the money ahead of time on the right equipment/tools/labor/dyno time instead of buying a new motor? I hope so...
To conclude:
A S-AFC or GReddy E-manage would do the trick for the fuel curve (I can't remember off-hand if the E-manage also does timing) if you are satisfied with running stock timing. These may be possible choices for those running conservative boost levels/airflow similar to the stock twins, as in a single turbo that is about the same as the stock twins running together. But the thing is, who decides to go single and buys a small single turbo?
The S-AFC is pretty easy to use, but so is the PFC Commander. With any non-stock fuel injection setup, it really isn't spending the money on the parts, it is spending the money on the tuning or your time (and possibly more money when you make mistakes) learning the EMS.
So, if you read this, it is a yes with many qualifiers. It just depends on your situation. Most folks end up with a signficantly larger turbo than stock and many other variables change, so most folks will need a standalone.
Regards,
--Ashraf
I recall instances of folks running a single turbo with upgraded injectors on a chipped stock ECU, BUT, there are a lot of qualifiers for that.
It is possible, you can do it...now, it depends on if such a scheme "works" for you if it is really worth doing.
The question you should be asking is why are you wanting to go with a cheaper fuel management system. If it is because you can't afford something else, you might want to re-think your priorities, because, most likely, you can't really afford to do the single conversion to begin with, do it right, and not blow up your motor.
There is another thread here on costs to do single conversions. It would be a good idea to take that to heart and think again about what you are doing and if you can make your bank account and timeline match, because you may be saving for a while if you want to do the job right. As we all know, consequences of a poor conversion are most likely a blown motor and many more dollars spent on fixing it. Don't you think it is cheaper to spend the money ahead of time on the right equipment/tools/labor/dyno time instead of buying a new motor? I hope so...
To conclude:
A S-AFC or GReddy E-manage would do the trick for the fuel curve (I can't remember off-hand if the E-manage also does timing) if you are satisfied with running stock timing. These may be possible choices for those running conservative boost levels/airflow similar to the stock twins, as in a single turbo that is about the same as the stock twins running together. But the thing is, who decides to go single and buys a small single turbo?
The S-AFC is pretty easy to use, but so is the PFC Commander. With any non-stock fuel injection setup, it really isn't spending the money on the parts, it is spending the money on the tuning or your time (and possibly more money when you make mistakes) learning the EMS.
So, if you read this, it is a yes with many qualifiers. It just depends on your situation. Most folks end up with a signficantly larger turbo than stock and many other variables change, so most folks will need a standalone.
Regards,
--Ashraf
Not that i can't afford because it was between a power fc or an hks f-con v pro i just didnt really know what to go with.I'm also planing on going with a t51r kai in about a year.But thanks a lot guys u have been a really good help.
03-01-04, 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by 1revn3rdgen
No i was asking what cheaper system to go with because they said it was possible to have a running car with a simpler/cheaper system.
Not that i can't afford because it was between a power fc or an hks f-con v pro i just didnt really know what to go with.I'm also planing on going with a t51r kai in about a year.But thanks a lot guys u have been a really good help.
No i was asking what cheaper system to go with because they said it was possible to have a running car with a simpler/cheaper system.
Not that i can't afford because it was between a power fc or an hks f-con v pro i just didnt really know what to go with.I'm also planing on going with a t51r kai in about a year.But thanks a lot guys u have been a really good help.
If you can afford a standalone, you should probably get it, especially if you want to go with a large turbo like the T-51. It doesn't make sense for you to get a cheaper system and then have to upgrade and re-learn when you get a new turbo.
--Ashraf
03-02-04, 03:17 AM
#16
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Well the only reason im doing it is because i thought it was going to be too big for my engine and was going to blow it.My plans are to get another engine and get bigger ports done to it then i could throw the t-51.Well actually the port job that my car has now sounds kinda like a like a bridge but when i got it i took it to the shop that did the job(rotary power. Gardena ,Ca) and they told me that it was a street port
Last edited by 1revn3rdgen; 03-02-04 at 03:39 AM.
03-04-04, 03:38 PM
#17
i run a single turbo with a large street port, I have 550cc stock pri inj that were sent out and cleaned and flow tested by RC engineering. I also have a custom secondary rail with the 1680cc Bosch Inj and a Fuel Pressure regulator as well as the Stock Toyota Denso Twin Turbo Fuel pump. I have made low 400's at 15-16 psi with this fuel set-up. Also the Inj duty cycle was no hgiher than 86% max. So its probably the perfect fuel system for your power needs. Also if you need more fuel you can just get the stock pri bored out to 720's. The 850's dont fit well in the primary location and from what i have heard they dont idle as well because of thier larger size and the min fuel requirements for idling. Also the Denso pump is a direct drop in pump. In tank. No noise and everything hooks right up. its identical cosmetically to the Stock rx7 pump. Also the quailty of the part is something to take into account. Not to mention it does not flood the car at idle. it flows at idle much like the stock pump and is a great choice for 400-450 HP range.
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