Templeton

iTrader: (10)

Just as the title says im looking to build A 400 WHP setup for my fc.

currently have:
godspeed FMIC kit
hks ssqv BOV
garret T04E 60 trim turbo, divided hotside
divided tubular t4 turbo manifold
giant wastegate
full 3" strait exhaust
720CC primary & 1600CC secondary injectors
Walboro 255 LPH fuel pump
prewired haltek E6X
AEM adjustable Fuel pressure regulator
innovate LC-1 wideband with digital guage

other mods:
rewired fuel pump
e-fan
gasket matched manifolds
emmisions removed
omp removed
3rd gen alternator w/ dual pully
msd 6A
battery relocated to rear bin
simplified throttle body
3/8" aluminum fuel lines
P/S removed
manual boost controller
autometer pro-comp boost & oil pressure guage
atking thermal pellet

currently building a half-bridge block, all s4 tII parts
porting will be done by myself using templates

still on my list:
aluminum radiator
sensors for the haltek

Tuning will be done by Synaptic3, they know their way around rotaries.

I'm looking to run on pump gas(93), no WI, no AI.

I have read alot into the streetport/halfbridge/bridgeport discussions and while I am aware that a decent streetport is all i need to accomplish my goals, i just flat out want that lumpy idle, bridgeport sound.

From what i have gathered, i should be well within the range of my goals and i am fairly confident i have just about everything i need to do it; However I have never done a build this in depth and any knowledge, suggestions and even criticism is much appreciated. I'm willing to take my time and spend the money, i just want a fast, reliable rx7

-Robert

tasty danish

iTrader: (5)

fast and reliable eh?

Add water injection. And do something about your rear plate. Otherwise it looks good. 400hp should be about the limit on that turbo, but the BP should help you there.

You need WI to be reliable and a beefier rear plate for piece of mind.

rcracer_tx

iTrader: (1)

You'll spool very fast with a halfbridge on e trim compressor.

Be careful about pushing too hard on tuning things such as split timing as its not a very precise/accurate ECU and likes to creep trailing timing and if your close to zero split it could blow your engine very easily. Also, don't trust haltech for advice as their a bunch of idiots with there heads up their asses...

In terms of fueling, you either need to get another Walbro 255 or a better pump. 350whp is about the max you want to run on a single pump. If your worried about idle, get injector dynamics 1000cc primaries and 1600/2000cc secondaries

Your ignition is fine, but I would be prepared for when the MSD dies as they are not reliable. I've seen them fail time and time again, and its a bit of a ghetto ignition compared to an HKS unit. I remember back at gotham racing when david hayes had that enormous panel full of 3 MSD ignitions to get his 20b to work. less than a stellar setup. If you want to go all out there's M&W which works even better than the twinpower and have seen it run flawlessly after reaching well beyond the limits of the twinpower (600-700whp on e85 on a fullbridge 13b), but that is overkill for our application

I assume this is the specs on your intercooler based on godspeed website:

Notice how it doesn't even mention pressure drop and its a measly 2.75" core that says max horsepower between "300-700". You would probably gain at least 10-20whp just by getting a decent intercooler, but I would do so for reliability as its a cheap core to start out with and its undersized to boot. Cooler temps= denser air= more power. Less pressure drop= more boost to your engine at same stress on the turbo. Its a win win. (for the record I have no problems with chinese parts and have an ebay manifold on my car, its just about knowing what to get and what to stay away from. The variance of stated max HP that they claim for the intercooler should be a sign to go get something by a company that at least has a clue on what they are producing)


I hope some of this was helpful, not trying to bash on some parts but trying to give some knowledge and insight from what I have learned and seen first hand that will hopefully save you some headaches/money down the road.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

You will want a bigger turbo & exhaust system for a bridge...

mazdaspeed00

iTrader: (6)

u need a better flowing fuel pump

tasty danish

iTrader: (5)

since when can a 255 not flow 400whp? I call shenanigans.

rcracer_tx

iTrader: (1)

Some walbro 255lph will flow that, but in my experience (and many others I know), The peices of crap flow anywhere between 210lph and 255lph depending on whether the manufacturer was having a good production day. (and no, they weren't cheap knockoffs)

You can push it to its limits and hope its a good pump, but for an extra $120-150 why not have the peace of mind and not be pushing the pump to its outer limits?

tasty danish

iTrader: (5)

But if we assume a rotary making 400whp, with .75 BSFC, and a specific fuel gravity of .75, Even 210LPH will be in excess of what he needs.

(400whp X .75= 300pph, 210 L/ph X 1.65= 346pph capacity of the pump)

I know walbro has a somewhat tarnished rep on this forum, but LOTS of people are making power with these. Make sure you get the high pressure model, there is a difference.

Sure I'd rather have a bosch 044, and my Turbo FB has a bosch, but every other car I've owned has run a walbro.

Liborek

Oh boy....

So you applied certain voltage, restriction on the outlet, measured pressure, current draw and actual flow rate?

rcracer_tx

iTrader: (1)

No, but when you push the pump where it should easily be able to flow the amount of fuel that they claim and the car leans out because the garbage pump drops pressure its a pretty good indicator. Its not hard to find out the pump isn't living up to its specs when you can't reach nearly the hp you should be able to and switching to a bosch pump flows just fine and is able to hold pressure to around the maximum power the pumps specs would indicate.

Switching to a non piece of **** pump fixes the issues without any other modifications... I wonder if that means it was the garbage walro pump

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Lets talk numbers...

http://realstreetperformance.com/sto...on-test-5.html

Proper voltage and amperage are ESSENTIAL to getting appropriate pump performance. Re-wiring your fuel pump (if it hasn't already been done) is far more important than upgrading your pump, because even (...more like especially) if you through a Supra pump in there on shitty wiring it will probably run worse, not better. Also, in the interest of being accurate, the walbro 255 (high pressure) actually outflows the supra pump within a certain pressure range....and at far less amps.

Templeton

iTrader: (10)

fuel pump is wired strait to a rocker switch to the battery and well ground to the body. I don't have to go with the haltek, if it's not going to be accurate enough to take advantage of the tune im paying for I wont waste my time with it. as far as needing a bigger exhaust and turbo for the porting, i checked out the flow charts for the turbo and it should support 400 HP within it's efficency range, as for the exhaust do i really need to go to a 4" exhaust from a 3" strait pipe to support free flow? seems a little excessive. As far as the porting itself, It will be a fairly conservatve half bridge, this is going to be a 100% street car. I read up on fc3spro about the s4 engines and it sounded lke 400 hp should be a safe number as far as cracking the end plates, am incorrect on this? a s5 endplate isnt out of the question if its necessary but i already have 2 good s4's . is WI really going to be a necessity for me? i'd like to avoid adding more systems which are just going to complicate the build.

im certainly not trying to shoot down the advice you guys are giving me just everybody has different oppinions on these things and id like to hear it all.

tasty danish

iTrader: (5)

Rear plates get dangerous around 350whp, some have done better, that's just conventional wisdom.

If you want a turbo rotary you don't have to hold your breath over, water injection is a reality. Period. There are too many positives and no real negatives.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"I don't have to go with the haltek"

i may be offbase here since i have little/no Haltec experience but... am i correct that unlike a Power FC the Haltec does not log knock into an X Y grid?

if so, that alone would disqualify it for me. knock logging is essential to understanding where you are w re to tune.

further, and again this is just by hearing from others, i know alot of Haltec rotaries have been lost due to electrical noise interfering w ignition signals.

another consideration is exhaust... the combination of a HBP and a larger than 3 inch exhaust is lethal w regard to driver comfort. sure, for the first 5 minutes it is cool and after that it will be a real drag. i remember Judge Ito remarking that by the time you get a BP down to a liveable noise level for the street you have lost a bunch of the advantage. of course each to his own here so if you love decibels go for it. just know what to expect.

as to the turbo...

cold side average area 5.476 sq inches (GT35 is 6.386 in comparison)
hot side is 5.408 (Stage 5 T3 wheel) GT35 is 5.171

the turbos will do 50 pounds per minute max at 19 psi.
50 X 14.471= 723 CFM/1.92 = 376 Max rw rotary hp. so Turblown is correct.

45 pounds at 14.7 or 358

376 hp from 159 cubic inches is NOT inconsequential... water injection for two reasons essential

cool down combustion chamber pressure/heat
keep the carbon from building in the apex/side and corner seal grooves.

good luck,

howard

Templeton

iTrader: (10)

great info howard, exactly the kind of answers i was looking for.

if WI is that necessary i won't argue it haha.
who sells a good kit?

I guess ill figure out a different ecu. what are would you recommend as far as an ecu? keep in mind im willing to spend what i need to, to do this right i am still on a budget however.

suppose i'll hunt down an s5 endplate while im at it too.

i suppose ill think some more about just running a large streetport

as far as the turbo, i guess i'll just get the best out of it i can, if i end up at 375 not 400 ill still be plenty content

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"if WI is that necessary i won't argue it haha.
who sells a good kit?

//////////Coolingmist, Aquamist are two no mistake brands///////

I guess ill figure out a different ecu. what are would you recommend as far as an ecu? keep in mind im willing to spend what i need to, to do this right i am still on a budget however.

////////////my opinion.......... no contest Apexi Power FC and you can get a great price in the classifieds, of course do your homework on the seller. you will need a conversion harness for your FC. i believe Banzai is the vendor///////////////////////

suppose i'll hunt down an s5 endplate while im at it too.//////very good idea//////

i suppose ill think some more about just running a large streetport/////another very good idea, the porting will better fit your turbo and you will have really good hp under the curve///////

as far as the turbo, i guess i'll just get the best out of it i can, if i end up at 375 not 400 ill still be plenty content//////don't sell your turbo short. it has a beautiful (wide) compressor map for it's size. you will not be unhappy w 375 hp///////////

tasty danish

iTrader: (5)

Howard, you puzzle me with how dead set you are on needing knock in an ECU. I know some pretty serious tuners with some pretty serious cars, and you are the first I've heard not refer to knock with a, "Meh, it's nice to have I guess, but honestly isn't that useful."

Most serious racers I know make a dyno tune, then do a few torture tests on the dyno while listening with a stethoscope. They have almost NO desire to knock monitoring in their ECU. There seems to be some difficulty in getting a knock frequency to jive with the sensor being used, and tuning out ambient noise.

I'd like to hear your thoughts because I'd just chalked it up to being superfluous and too picky to be of any real use, based on those I associate with.

Liborek

I´m curious how you are reading compressor maps
60 Trim on choke limit can flow 53 lbs/min which on really well build engine could be 450 HP@crank, but to be at least on the edge of the map, you have to operate at 2.3 PR (about 19 psi) at this peak flow. This limits your porting options and operating rpms. You would be best with totally stock engine, it will put you to more efficient operating point. Bridgeported engine will tend to flow much more at low PR which would drive you from the map. Nothing serious apart from the fact, that IATs go high but mainly turbine pressure skyrockets and this is big no no in large overlap rotary...

Opinions doesn´t hold much merit. Picking right parts and making it work isn´t magic, its just about understanding of each aspect and making everything work in whole concept. And this ability is what this forum probably lacks

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

looks like 50 tops to me and you will notice the RPM line is verticle at that point indicating it is hitting the brick choke wall. no more air.

50 is 723 CFM/1.92 = 377 rotary rwhp in my world. the calculations are empirically derived but work pretty well. this is for SAE hp and of course dynos differ.

"on really well build engine could be 450 HP@crank"

450 at the "crank" 450 X .85 = 382 at the rear wheels (RW).

close enough

"how dead set you are on needing knock in an ECU."

knock is of incomparable value everywhere on the RPM/Load map, not just at top tick hp or torque. AFRs and even EGTs are not the acid test. knock indicates combustion chamber breakdown/failure. and knock in a rotary compared to a piston engine can be quickly fatal.

AFRs and EGTs can optimise variably depending on a zillion factors but knock is a constant. it is absolute.

the Power FC delivers knock readings to a decimal point in all 400 cells. the OE knock sensor works very well. at one point i swapped in 5 of them and they all generated similar readings.

you want to sneak up on knock in a good tune.

did i say, i hope i didn't, that you couldn't tune without knock? no. before the FD delivered knock into the ECU all kinds of good tuning was being done. stethoscopes and broom handles come to mind but they hardly deliver whether knock is trending upward from say 9 to 15 and the 100.

there are many great tuners that have so much experience they are intuitive.

for many of us instrumentation needs to makes up for genius or 40 years of experience.

proper tuning instrumentation requires logged fuel pressure, EGTs and knock as well as the usual...

aspiring tuners seeking to learn the process (and this process relates to turbos and AI) would be wise to drop by the turbobuick forum and visit the "Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech Section...

there are 101 pages, 4104 threads all about tuning going back to 2001. most Buick Grand Nationals came w a turbo. sure it is a pushrod 2 valve V6 but the tuning dynamics are very similar. most of them are dual purpose street and drag cars running PUMP gas and alcohol.

231 cubic inches (3.8 L), reliably making 680 rwhp, running 10 flat in a 3800 pound sled.

check out the tuning process...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alc...0&daysprune=-1

howard

Templeton

iTrader: (10)

even more great info Howard thank you.

i was incorrect of in the trim of the turbo, its actually an 80 trim (all my parts are at home while im at college, guessing mistakes happen)

picking this stuff up and figuring out my porting should keep me busy for a while, im sure i'll have more questions once i get heavy into it in the next few months

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

not all S5 plates have the thick cast dowel pin boss, keep that in mind. not that it is a necessity but i have noticed plenty of broken S4 irons too which is why i generally dowel them when pushing past about 400 wheel horsepower for reliability. plenty of people have gone higher with the weak cast irons, but it's luck of the draw. i still am mixed if it is tuning error related or just the weak irons twisting under pressure, could be unlucky due to timing marks being off due to mismatched 2nd gen pulleys which can be mixed up and give incorrect base timing figures.

Templeton

iTrader: (10)

i did not know the s5 irons were hit or miss like that, you may have just saved me from some serious dissapointment down the road! thanks karack

also i did noticed that pullys timing marks can vary, which brings up a question! i swapped a s4 block into a s5 car, both n/a, using the s5 front cover and accessories, should i use the s4 pully to correctly time the car? or am i set to stick with the s5 which belongs to that front cover and CAS?

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

it doesn't matter which you use, i just wouldn't mix up the pulleys and the hubs and keep them as match sets. all the motors are timed the same way but for some odd reason mazda felt it necessary to make a different pulley for the non turbo engine, they are drilled completely different than all other motors.

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

Regardless of series (S4/S5), all NEW irons have the larger, FD-sized upper dowel boss (both front and rear plates). I'm guessing after they either developed or started producing the FD blocks, they switched their casting on new production of older irons as well.

here is an S4 rear iron I purchased off a new engine core:

Lastly, I never dynoed my car, but I ran a streetported stock (small dowel boss) S4 block with essentially a GT3574 / TD61 equivalent turbo at around 15 psi with meth injection hard for a summer, and never had any dowel issues. I imagine I was making around 400whp or so.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

yep, they can do it but have also run into a few failures. built a series 5 with small boss and made 450whp and lasted several years but eventually blew the front rotor when it ran lean. rear iron was still fine in that motor but i pinned it after it was torn down as his new goal was 500.