im looking to do 4000rwhp on a td61 with a 1.00 AR turbine. plan is to run 20 psi with h2o injection. currently i have a walbro installed and im wondering if thatll be enough pump or should i upgrade to a rotary performance pump?
on my base tune i was seeing mid70s or even 85% DC on 72/1600 injectors with my old 60-1 at around 16 psi at 11.7 AFR.

 

4000?

Walbro will do 400 wheel just fine. The RP pump isn't much of an upgrade anyway. The Bosch 044 would be the next pump I would consider and would support 500 whp. You should be able to hit 400 whp with that turbo at much less than 20 psi. 16 psi should get you there.

 

So if i do upgrade go with a bosch 044 then huh.
I meant 400whp not 4000 oops guess i got alil too happy lol

 

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-rx-7-1993-2002-parts-99/ptp-twin-walbro-pump-assembly-966475/

Its shameless i know, but we ALL know once you have 400, your gonna want 450. and with a turbo that can make 500, hey why not have it on tap with ease. Do you really want to do your pumps twice. why push 1 pump to its limit

 

oops just pulled mine and noticed i have the 315 and not the 341 walbro, maybe that was my problem?

 

they have single in-tank pumps that will flow very well and not require complicated wiring and plumbing. The Aeromotive 340 is one example. http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-pa...-inlet-inline/

 

ARGHX,so u think the walbro wont be enough?

 

I just installed this pump in my car and it works great! It replaced my Supra pump that was running out of flow on the top end. It was as easy to install as a Walbro and is MUCH quieter.

Here's a great article comparing the Bosch 044, Aeromotive, Supra pump, and Walbro.

http://realstreetperformance.com/sto...on-test-5.html

While the 044 flows more at higher pressures it is also is known for heating the fuel and cannot be mounted in-tank without buying special adapters.

 

wat hp setup do u have ball joint?
i thought i read somewhere that those aermotive pumps were giving problems?
think kris johnson posted it on his facebook
"Sixth car in a row running on one of these new 340lph in-tank fuel pumps dropping pressure as the fuel heats up. Decided to do a simple test tonight. Left car idling for like 30 mins and sure bet base pressure went from 40 to 25psi! It never fails. I have yet to see one application not experiencing this problem.
So far this is only happening on one particular brand. Care to guess? LOL!"
and
" Last week on another application it started happening after about 10 dyno runs where the pressure would start to drop at high rpms. Let the car sit for 20 mins and problem went away. Once they a replaced with walbros the problem went away."

 

255 LPH= 4.25 Lpm (4,250 CC/Min) @ base pressure

1600x2=3200cc/min @ 100%
550 x2= 1,100 cc/min@ 100%

youll never really setup up your system to run over 80% duty cycle which is a controlable limit, so 3,440 cc/min@ 80%

if you upgrade your primaries to 750 or 850 you will want to look @ dual pumps if your running high boost, not only will you max the flow of 1 pump but the stock single line will get close to max also

your rasing fuel pressure 1:1 with boost so if you set base @43, 20 psi boost look at the pumps performance @ 63PSI, flow drops off with pump pressure rising..... some more drastic than others

 

just run dual stock denso pumps, I run my stock denso pump 400 hp no problem.

I rewired the fuel pump and it gets 13v constantly, and i have the same turbo as you.

I'm going for 20 psi and just adding a extra stock denso to the mix and should be fine

 

What special adapters? I just got a new one from the rx7 store and it didn't come with adapters. I thought it was a direct swap for my supra pump.

Has anyone had first hand issues with the 044 pump?

 

supra pump is fine

 

your 60-1 at 16 psi might be making 62 pounds per minute. tops. that's 897 CFM or 467 SAE rotary rwhp. of course you could be making less, i am looking at optimum.

467 takes 100,792 BTUs or .868 GPM of gas. that's 3285 CC/Min.

you have 2 X 720 and 2 X 1600 for a total of 4640

so your duty cycle at 467 hp should be 71%

you may have lost some fuel flow due to your pump/voltage/filter.

i datalog my fuel pressure and consider it a necessity.

that's a real nice link (above) re fuel pumps.

i have run a Supra pump w a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump and i have rock solid fuel pressure at 507 rwhp. i am running 1400 CCs of meth which makes the pumps job a bit easier.

howard

 

sorry, had to abbreviate my post, here's the rest of the story as i see it....

your new turbo can make 500. best size your fuel for it one time as a previous post states:

"we ALL know once you have 400, your gonna want 450. and with a turbo that can make
500"

so, 500.. is 107,847 BTUs or .929 GPM of gas or 3516 CC/Min X 1.176 = 4134 CC/Min Gross so you can run 3516 at 85% duty cycle. you should have a bit more so you can run richer than 11.3 if you wish.

i am unsure as to your primaries.. you use 72, i am assuming they are 720s.

using the fuel pump data from the link at 65 gross psi... (that might be 40 static and 25 boost)

Bosch 4270 at 12.5 amps
Aero 4073 at 13.9 amps
Denso 3278 at 16.6 amps
Walbro 2979 at 10.4 amps



FWIW, i have run a Denso and made 507 w zero pressure fall off at 20 psi w the aid of a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump set at a 20% Volt gain. i have run this setup since 1999 and am still using the same pump. Voltage is key to output. the study does not disclose the V. all of the above pumps will output more w higher V.

do remember that the rotary requires approx 30% more air and fuel V a piston engine so don't use piston hp numbers unless you make the correction.

howard

 

I am running my 60-1 FC on a sngle bosch 044, should beon the dyno next week. If I ever need more, I could go dual 044.

I went with the best in tank pump that I could afford.

 

Supra Pump or a Bosch 044 will both do the job for the power level your shooting for.. Bosch gives you some wiggle room if you want some more power later.

 

Walbro won't cut it. Either a supra or bosch 044. At 20 psi you may be running out of pump if you just run a single one.

 

Thanx for all the info!!! Im def. Gonna come back here for the stuff posted. I wemt ahead and ordera supra pump. Bdc will be tuning it in about two week.

 

Take a look at the Apexi BNR 33- I have it and it can drain a lake.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm
http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/parts_i...exi_bnr32.html

John

 

 

@ 16psi you will be out of fuel with the supra pump on that turbo...

 

Howard, you are omitting injector dead time from your fuel calcs. No injector flows 80% of its static flow at 80% duty cycle...

 

i do agree with you re dead time and flow.

given the fact i have not taken that (as it turns out important) fact under consideration i thought i would visit one of my logs and do the calculations.

i am working on a log where i made 506.83 SAE hp at 7296 RPM at 75.1 duty cycle.

12.0 AFR

506.83 X 1.92 is 973 CFM is 67.24 pounds of air per minute.

at 12 AFR that is 5.603 pounds of gas per minute

5.603 pounds is .882 gallons per minute.

.882 X 116,090 = 102,448 BTUs to make 506 rotary at 12 AFR

i was injecting 1419 CC/Min of meth or .374 gallons per minute
.373 GPM X 57,250 = 21,411 BTUs from meth

102,448 - 21,411 from meth = 81,037 needed from gas.

according to my logged duty cycle (75.1) and my injectors

call them 880 & 1650 X 2 i can make 5060 nominal.

5060 X .751 = 3800 CC/min

3800 = 1.003 GPM or 116,438 BTUs

but i actually was using 81,037 BTUs

therefore in this case deadtime/lag decreased net delivery by 35,401 CC/Min or 30%

i imagine lag varies a bit between injector designs which have greatly improved over the years. further, since part of dead time is probably a constant due to it being mechanical in nature, lag probably decreases w ontime. ( less than a Ms at low load/rpm and 20 Ms higher up the load rpm range.)

the above run was in 09 running obsolete V the newer EV14 injectors. i ran an FJO Peak and hold converter on the secondaries.

anyway, bottom line is it appears you are quite correct as to including deadtime and it is consequential.

i am quite certain it decreased gross delivery by 30% and as such that needs to be cranked in to the calculations.

my error.

it will be interesting to see where i end up on the dyno shortly. i may need a bit more capacity.

howard

 

I want to be clear. So if I'm registering .85 DC the actual fuel delivery might be ~60% (.70 x .85) of injector's rated flow??

So Howard, anyway knowing what would the resulting BSFC @ peak power be using petrol only?