My Twin Scroll SSAC Manifold
#28
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400hp Pro-rally cars use TS, if its good for them its good for me. It makes a big turbo act like a small turbo below 5k. Personally I think thats a good thing.
Whats with all the hate?
Whats with all the hate?
#29
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i don't think you need to get to the melting point to damage the integrity of the metal. there will be a lot of pressure on that flap and there is a very large surface area to absorb heat with little means to dissipate the heat. and mind you it will always be in the exhaust stream where as the s4 twin scroll flapper sits out of the way when not in use
very nice fabing. it will be interesting to see the results.
very nice fabing. it will be interesting to see the results.
#30
development
Originally Posted by BackyardSog
So how are you going to regulate the flapper position?? boost conroller?
patiently awaiting results...
#31
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by mwatson184
Sorry if I missed it, but will the actuator be activated by boost or RPM?
Originally Posted by BackyardSog
So how are you going to regulate the flapper position?? boost conroller?
This will take some experimentation to get right. This is why: My guess is solenioding it to make it "pop" open just before desired boost is bad b/c it will make my boost pressure oscillate due to the turbine energy dropping off so fast. Due to this I have "guessed" a psi interval over which to open it. This value was choosen to be 5psi. That means if my desired boost level is 15psi, the actuator will open from 10-15psi. In actuallity I want the minimal interval length to maximize boost response but not one so short that it makes boost oscillate.
Originally Posted by turbine
i don't think you need to get to the melting point to damage the integrity of the metal.
Originally Posted by turbine
there will be a lot of pressure on that flap and there is a very large surface area to absorb heat with little means to dissipate the heat.
This is very true. I tested the flap at 1200F above the manifold temp and clearanced it for this "worst case" senario.
Originally Posted by dubulup
probably a solenoid...since he's using a stock actuator...the haltech will tell the solenoid when to open the flapper.
I like the input, let's hear more.
Justin
#33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Ceramic Coating the Flap
I ceramic coated the flap with this CBX coating:
http://techlinecoatings.com/BulkEngine.htm
I hope it will help reduce the temperature variation between the flap and the manifold. The closer these are in temperature the less chance there will be of the flap expanding to the point that it binds.
http://techlinecoatings.com/BulkEngine.htm
I hope it will help reduce the temperature variation between the flap and the manifold. The closer these are in temperature the less chance there will be of the flap expanding to the point that it binds.
#35
Senior Member
Thread Starter
GT4088 Turbo ordered!
Well I just ordered a Non-BB GT4088 with a 1.34 A/R hotside. Hopefully in the next month or so I will have some boost vs. rpm graphs with and w/o the twin scroll actuated.
Justin
Justin
#36
Very interesting reading so far in this thread, look forward to seeing what results you get and hope all goes well
Have an idea to contribute that may help to a certain degree with the heat issue, and may also have other benefits.
Have been looking at a lot of WI threads recently, some concerning injector placement, and as well as the usual pre-turbo, pre-IC, post IC, TB, etc, injecting into the exhaust manifold was mentioned. Thought it maybe might help with your design? Water spray would cool the EGTs and due to the expasion would probably increase the flow rate aswell, possibly helping what you'll already be achieving with the twin scroll design. All should aid the VE.
Thinking about experimenting with something similar myself, already planning on pre and post turbo injection points, but thinking about this aswell to effectively change the A/R. The theorys there (I think!) just haven't seen it done yet anyway, although im sure its been toyed with.
Have an idea to contribute that may help to a certain degree with the heat issue, and may also have other benefits.
Have been looking at a lot of WI threads recently, some concerning injector placement, and as well as the usual pre-turbo, pre-IC, post IC, TB, etc, injecting into the exhaust manifold was mentioned. Thought it maybe might help with your design? Water spray would cool the EGTs and due to the expasion would probably increase the flow rate aswell, possibly helping what you'll already be achieving with the twin scroll design. All should aid the VE.
Thinking about experimenting with something similar myself, already planning on pre and post turbo injection points, but thinking about this aswell to effectively change the A/R. The theorys there (I think!) just haven't seen it done yet anyway, although im sure its been toyed with.
#37
Senior Member
Thread Starter
WI into exhaust manifold
Originally Posted by ScuttleRX
Very interesting reading so far in this thread, look forward to seeing what results you get and hope all goes well
Have an idea to contribute that may help to a certain degree with the heat issue, and may also have other benefits.
Have been looking at a lot of WI threads recently, some concerning injector placement, and as well as the usual pre-turbo, pre-IC, post IC, TB, etc, injecting into the exhaust manifold was mentioned. Thought it maybe might help with your design? Water spray would cool the EGTs and due to the expasion would probably increase the flow rate aswell, possibly helping what you'll already be achieving with the twin scroll design. All should aid the VE.
Thinking about experimenting with something similar myself, already planning on pre and post turbo injection points, but thinking about this aswell to effectively change the A/R. The theorys there (I think!) just haven't seen it done yet anyway, although im sure its been toyed with.
Have an idea to contribute that may help to a certain degree with the heat issue, and may also have other benefits.
Have been looking at a lot of WI threads recently, some concerning injector placement, and as well as the usual pre-turbo, pre-IC, post IC, TB, etc, injecting into the exhaust manifold was mentioned. Thought it maybe might help with your design? Water spray would cool the EGTs and due to the expasion would probably increase the flow rate aswell, possibly helping what you'll already be achieving with the twin scroll design. All should aid the VE.
Thinking about experimenting with something similar myself, already planning on pre and post turbo injection points, but thinking about this aswell to effectively change the A/R. The theorys there (I think!) just haven't seen it done yet anyway, although im sure its been toyed with.
I have never heard of injecting into the exhaust manifold!? I cannot see any gain to this. Before the turbo? This seems completely wrong to me. Your turbo
is an energy extracter. Vaporizing water takes alot of energy. This energy would otherwise be extractrd by the turbo and made into useful work via the engine. I dont mean to attack, just curious as to what the idea is behind WI into the exhaust?
Justin
#38
Yeah before the turbo (on the hot side), I never seen it done either, but I heard it discussed in theory a few times by some knowledgable enthusiasts (more knowledgeable than me!) and thought I would mention it
I thought for your application the main benefit would be the cooling action (just recalling what you said about possibly heat issues affecting the flap) as it would limit temps, like you say vapourising of the water will use a lot of heat energy.
I dont think it would take energy from the turbo though, if anything the expansion from water into gas would increase flow a touch? I think this was the benefit there were discussing more rather than cooling.
I shall have a hunt for the threads I got this info from, as you can tell im not fully conversed in what im preaching (!), its something I was planning to look at at a later date and your thread madde it pop back into my head.
If theres some theory backing it up it might be something I toy with, im off the road for the winter so have plenty of time to play, if it proves fruitless, i'll just plug the injector hole and be done with it
Can see your points in your reply, like I say i'll go hunt them threads and get back to you
I thought for your application the main benefit would be the cooling action (just recalling what you said about possibly heat issues affecting the flap) as it would limit temps, like you say vapourising of the water will use a lot of heat energy.
I dont think it would take energy from the turbo though, if anything the expansion from water into gas would increase flow a touch? I think this was the benefit there were discussing more rather than cooling.
I shall have a hunt for the threads I got this info from, as you can tell im not fully conversed in what im preaching (!), its something I was planning to look at at a later date and your thread madde it pop back into my head.
If theres some theory backing it up it might be something I toy with, im off the road for the winter so have plenty of time to play, if it proves fruitless, i'll just plug the injector hole and be done with it
Can see your points in your reply, like I say i'll go hunt them threads and get back to you
#39
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...ection+exhaust
Here ya go, not much on this one I think, think I recall a more detailed one somewhere, a.r info bottom end of first post
Dont think you have to register but its a good forum anyways if ya do
Here ya go, not much on this one I think, think I recall a more detailed one somewhere, a.r info bottom end of first post
Dont think you have to register but its a good forum anyways if ya do
#40
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Originally Posted by ScuttleRX
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...ection+exhaust
Here ya go, not much on this one I think, think I recall a more detailed one somewhere, a.r info bottom end of first post
Dont think you have to register but its a good forum anyways if ya do
Here ya go, not much on this one I think, think I recall a more detailed one somewhere, a.r info bottom end of first post
Dont think you have to register but its a good forum anyways if ya do
I didnt have time to read past the first page of that thread but it seems like you might be confused. When they say they are running WI preturbo, they are refering to the intake side not the turbine side....basically putting a nozzle between the filter and the turbo inlet. Then they mention how it lowers egt's because the heavy humidity thats now in the intake air makes for a cooler combustion because the water absorbs a lot of heat thru vaporization when its combusted....hence lower EGTs. Unless the thread wildly changes in teh next pages (which granted I didnt read) I know that on page one they arent refering to placing the nozzle pre turbo on the exhaust side to cool egt's. If thats what you were thinking, they just had you confused.
Stephen
#41
Hi Stephen,
Its only a very small bit on the first page that refers to what I was talking about, its towards the bottom of the very first post. It crops up again later in the thread but theres no new information. Think it may have been on a WI forum I saw a more detailed thread about it.
Like you say majority of the rest of the thread relates to pre-turbo injection (what im really interested in )
Andy
Its only a very small bit on the first page that refers to what I was talking about, its towards the bottom of the very first post. It crops up again later in the thread but theres no new information. Think it may have been on a WI forum I saw a more detailed thread about it.
Like you say majority of the rest of the thread relates to pre-turbo injection (what im really interested in )
Andy
#42
Ooops, just noticed bit im talking about is in second post, i'll cut and paste to save confusion, is only a snippet anyways but explains what im talking about...
Quick note on A/R changes with WI: If you inject water directly into the exhaust, then it rapidly expands and turns to steam. In doing so it takes heat out of the exhasust, but the volume gain more than makes up for this. Tricky to implement, but can be used to change the effective A/R of the turbine, giving you a much wider operating range. MSD do a system for 2 strokes that uses this effect to change the effective tuned length of the exhaust to improve scavenging.
#43
Rotary Motoring
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Injecting water into exhaust system before the turbine has been done on rotaries to improve spool.
I remember reading one forum members accounts of doing this a long time ago, but don't remember if it was here or Nopistons.
Summary- it works great, but easy to crack manifold w/ thermal shock, complex and water will run out as well. In my opinion you might as well use a real anti-lag system as the race cars use (even if they use intake manifold water injection) w/ air bypass and exhaust manifold fuel injection. You already have a tank of gas and air all around you. Of course this is hard on exhaust system parts as well.
I remember reading one forum members accounts of doing this a long time ago, but don't remember if it was here or Nopistons.
Summary- it works great, but easy to crack manifold w/ thermal shock, complex and water will run out as well. In my opinion you might as well use a real anti-lag system as the race cars use (even if they use intake manifold water injection) w/ air bypass and exhaust manifold fuel injection. You already have a tank of gas and air all around you. Of course this is hard on exhaust system parts as well.
#44
Thanks for the info Blue TII, if you do stumble across them threads again would be good if you could post them up, something id like to read about even if I do decide against doing it.
Dont really think it would suit my application atm anyway as im sequential twins so spool up isnt much of an issue, good on a big single though I reckon.
So is a real anti lag a similar thing then just igniting air/fuel in the manifold rather than using water expansion?
Dont really think it would suit my application atm anyway as im sequential twins so spool up isnt much of an issue, good on a big single though I reckon.
So is a real anti lag a similar thing then just igniting air/fuel in the manifold rather than using water expansion?
#46
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ScuttleRX
Sorry im seem to be distracting from the original thread, shall I start a new thread or is it ok here for now?
Justin
#48
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Twin ****! haha
Originally Posted by ScuttleRX
How is this coming along matey, had chance to test it yet?
Upon disassembly it looks like the flap broke away from the rod that was supposed to turn it. The engine blew under bad detonation (which hadnt been a problem until this point), I think it was caused by the flap sticking and causing increased back pressure and a boost spike (20psi from the peak hold setting).
The car ran really good before this. It got 15psi by 4200rpm on a GT4088 with 1.34A/R.
Well back to the drawing board. No more twin scroll for me.
Anyone want to buy a modified SSAC manifold?
Justin
#50
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Ah man that sucks! Sorry to hear about that. It's unfortunate for you especially after puting in the hard work.
If anything, blame it on the SSAC Manifold!!
If you do decied to give it another go, maybe you should try it with the HKS cast Manny?
If anything, blame it on the SSAC Manifold!!
If you do decied to give it another go, maybe you should try it with the HKS cast Manny?