Yes, I added those mods a couple weeks ago, and I added some fuel for them to be safe and the tune was a little rich. Then I added these injectors and put in the right lag time settings and 2200 into the pfc.

so you ran the larger turbine housing and exhaust w the 1600s? how much additional fuel did you add? and it was how much rich?

what were the two housing A/Rs?

then after the above you added the injectors and it was very lean?

any other changes? base fuel pressure unchanged?

maybe you got sent a wrong set of injectors or possibly a bad set. something doesn't make sense here.

Yes I ran the larger 1.32 A/R turbine housing and 4" exhaust with the 1680s. It wasn't a given % across the map, I made a few map changes at the same time, but overal there was only like 2-3% more fuel and it was running like low 11 afr, just a little richer, overall the larger housing and bigger exhaust didn't make a big difference in afr. It did however reduce boost lag and the car feels like better bottom end and midrange power because the turbo gets up to boost a few hundred rpm quicker, I did lots of test to confirm this. Going from a .96 undivided housing to the 1.32 divided housing, with the same divided manifold. I didn't get it back on the dyno to check for a peak power increase and do better tuning, I wanted to do all that after getting these injectors installed. Yes the afrs were much leaner once it hit about 10 psi boost and above, above about 4k rpm. No other changes and no changes in fuel pressure. I'm not done tuning so I'll let everyone know how it turns out soon.

Any other tuners out there have experience switching from 1680s to 2200s ?

Just a thought, did you take out the resistors when you switched to the 2200s?

Yep, I was waiting for someone to ask that haha.

I wonder if the pfc needs more for the lag time settings, because with The other injectors a lower lag time setting will make Afr leaner, and the lag times from Id are lower than all the other injectors we use.

did you get lag settings from Jon at FIC?

he sent me settings which seemed to ballpark me for the brief initial road run (13 psi, modest rpm).

No, I'm gonna call him tomorrow. Can you share your settings from him please? I'd like to try different lag time settings when I go out for some tuning tonight. Thanks

give me a minute

Thanks. Those are the numbers I'm using for 44% base fuel pressure. So you installed these and afr's were in the same ballpark? From 1680s. Mine were way off. Red injector wire connected to the thicker injector wire from the harness that tests positive with key on.

i am not using those numbers as i am running 4 1000s as secondaries... i will be on the dyno thur or fri and should have additional info

howard

Cool, I forgot you already told me that. Sounds good

yeah its funny thing cause when i switched to ID2000 secondaries on the pfc i had to increase my base map quite a bit to keep my afr of 11.3 at 14psi. but i was shocked to see that my injector duty cycle at 80%. im running to4s xs engineering single turbo. ID725/ID2000. I used dead times listed on ID's website. I dont know what the target afr's were for the 1680cc injectors as i purchased the car not running with the map installed on the power fc. haha i may not explain myself right since i just got out of knee surgery today lol so please excuse if im not making sense

I'm not done tuning and haven't tested past 19 psi yet, but my idc's are also looking higher than they should be comparing before and after logs. And when I select Fuel Duty % from the drop down list in the datalogit base map, the duty cycles are just a tad bit more than they were before with 1680s, comparing base maps. With these bigger injectors the idc is supposed to be a good bit lower, I don't get it..

You have some issues. Be very weary while its on the dyno/street when your tuning.

Ya i am being very careful tuning it, that's why I started off adding 20% more fuel to the map when I first found out during the first injector transition test that something was off and it was running much leaner as soon as the transition started and when it was getting into boost.

These injectors will definitely not be worth it (to get back on topic lol) if I don't figure out why they seem to be flowing less than the old bosch 1680s.

My FIC2000s and denso plugs arrived yesterday. Technically they are 2200cc like the IDs right?

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/5926/img2507b.jpg

So is this their data that they generated?

Yes, they flow 2200 at 43.5 psi, or 2225 going by ID's test flow rates.

The table is the same as the table on ID's site.. so they probably didn't generate that data. Does that make it worth it more to buy the ID's, no.

I'm thinking my issue might be due to the fact that I had .40 lag time correction for the 1680s, possibly causing the tune to be richer compared to the settings I'm using for the 2200s, because with a .40 lag time for the 1680s added to the 14v InjSc (ms) vs BatV lag time of .768 that equals 1.168 total lag time. http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html says the 14v lag time for the Ford Motorsport 1680s (bosch) is .94, .94 - .768 (.768 14v lag time default pfc setting for the stock 850 secondarys) equals .172 lag time correction. My lag time correction used was .40, which is a big difference of .228 (.4-.172) . Perhaps I need to run a .228 lag time correction with the lag time settings for the 2200s to get my afr in the ball park of what is was before with the same maps for the 1680s.

I will test this out soon, I'll keep my tune as it is at the moment and see if the afr gets much richer when I start to add lag time. I didn't get to go out last night to test. also waiting for John at Fuel injector connection to call me back to talk about all this. I just confirmed the part numbers on my fuel injectors, I did get the correct injectors lol.

Hey maybe something is wrong with ur setting? I am 550, ID 2000 with aeromotive stleath pump, sard fpr base pressure at 40, and same turbo as system urs, in third gear wot I am seeing 59% injector duty.

What lag time settings did you use for the batv table and next to front secondary and rear secondary ? Did you do your own tuning and notice a lean condition or have to add alot of fuel to your map? I'm going to test out different lag settings soon today.

actually car was tune by waynespped with 1300 cc, I just upgrade to ID 2000 and aeromotive pump, and test it before I was getting 89-93% injector with the 1300cc setup. I have not went back for any tunning witht he new setup, Anyway there is another thread BY the famous (AGRH) I believe his user name is he had the numbers figure out by using 40 psi fuel pressure, I just adjust to his setting.

I did do some searching and didn't find anybody recommending any different lag settings than what is supplied from ID, also no other mentions of leaner afr's. so I'll have to do the testing

Hey I think I mis spell his user name, it's ARGHX he is the fellas that put out allot of info, incase you still can't find here is the info below.
The injector settings were discussed here: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fjo-injector-driver-installation-895398/page2/

The Datalogit does let you enter very high values for the secondary injectors. It is the Commander that maxes out. So far a popular approach for the ID2000 is to directly enter the injector lag vs battery voltage information into the settings 5 table. Then you can leave the normal lag "trim" adjustments (available in the Datalogit but also in the commander) to zero.

Using that method with a base pressure of 40psi the size should be 2200 and lag settings are:

16V - 0.380
14V - 0.500
12V - 0.688
10V - 0.964
8V - 1.476

For higher base pressure this chart has been supplied by Injector Dynamics:



there are a couple different approaches/settings people are using for overlap and transition. see the thread listed above for one approach used by thewird, who is using ID1000's as primaries
__________________
-- 1988 Rx-7 Turbo II, T04R
-- 1999 Toyota Corolla

-- Sold: 1997 Infiniti Q45 Touring
-- RIP: 1988 Rx-7 GTU, 172rwhp all motor
-- RIP: 1989 Supra

With a +.22 lag time correction for these injectors my afr are about .45 AFR richer than they were with a 0 lag time correction (with the lag time vs voltage table setup with the lag times from the ID site). For example my 4000 rpm 16000 pim map cell average afr went from 10.99 afr to 10.54 afr, testing was two back to back 3rd gear pulls on the street to about 4500 rpm.

This is a significant difference, but still not as big of a difference as it should be because my afr were leaner by alot more than .45 afr after switching from the 1680s to these bosch 2200s. I may have to go back out and test more lag time correction.

Would the best lag time correction be when the afr are as rich as they can be? Would that mean the fuel injector timing is optimized when afr is richest?

Maybe I should start a new thread about all this.

Ya I've read all that, and I've used all those settings, but it's just not right when comparing the afr during tuning after putting in the correct settings, alot more fuel had to be added to my map which raises idc and makes it pointless to run these bigger injectors, unless I can get the same flow and same afr from these injectors with the same fuel map I was using before with the 1680s, which would lower the idc and then have enough injector to run more boost.

FWIW, i just talked to Luke, my tuner, and he had no problem w them on a 1000+ hp Supra. he also said he had lots of headroom.

i will be on the dyno monday for sure (snowstorm thur/fri) and will have more concrete info.

howard

ok Thanks Howard.

The ID Injector's are top notch quality!

Although i was told that all the ID2000's were recalled and being replaced with 2200's

That doesn't really make sense, the id2000 Are 2200s, its just a name for them.

More testing done. +.23 lag time correction is working good. After analyzing more datalogs, the extra lag time actually does make the secondary injectors inject more fuel, it increases the pulse width, I can see this in the chart window and the monitor window. With 0 lag time correction, the secondary injectors inject a very small amount of ms less than the primary injectors, and with the .23 lag time correction they inject basically the same pulse width, this results in more fuel and richer afr. and the injector duty cycles are actually coming down. My tune is now too rich so when I lean it out a little the idc's will come down even farther. So I'm getting closer to how it should be. Also I'm now using 30% transition setting so the injectors start the transistion sooner and meet up to the same pulsewidths alittle sooner, this is working better too. And now using .3 Sec transition (ms), and injector overlap of 3 3 2 is better than using 7s which cause too much of a rich spike at the beginning of the transition.

it is good to hear you are moving in the right direction...

i am doing some empirical lag determination and would really appreciate some data from a dyno run.

i would like to know your injector duty cycle, your AFR, your HP (pls state whether SAE or Standard) and your injector size.... i believe they are 850/1600. also what AI you run and the jet size. (all data at your top tick)

ideally one of your 500+ runs.

thanks

Attached is my 528 hp dyno pull datalog file. 850s/1680s. I'm glad you asked, I just looked at that datalog and see that the pulsewidth for the secondary injectors (1680s with +.40 lag time correction) is significantly more than the pulse width for the primary injectors, when compared to my current testing/datalogs with the 2200s. So with that +.40 lag time correction the pulsewidth for the secondarys divided by the pulsewidth for the primarys is larger than it is right now, this might explain why my tune was so much leaner when I first started testing/tuning with the 2200s because the pulsewidth for the secondarys was a little less than the primarys.

For the 528 hp dyno pull, The peak pulsewidth for the primary injectors was 7.576, secondarys was 7.996. At that moment rpm was 5990, idc 75.4, 26223 PIM (24 psi), afr was 11.6, but this isn't where peak power was. More info for that dyno pull is here https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-dyno-121/528-rwhp-428-ft-lbs-24-psi-pump-gas-wi-973231/

For one of my tests today with the 2200s and a .23 lag time correction, primary injectors peak pulsewidth was 6.344 and secondarys was 6.320 at the same moment at 6963 rpm, 21703 pim (19psi), 75.7% idc, this was a 2nd gear pull spinning the tires cause the road is wet so I couldn't do any 3rd or 3th gear tests safely. I haven't turned up the boost higher yet. Afr was rich at 10.34. My tune at the moment is rich because I'm not done testing and tuning it yet. Currently using the large Aem .630 jet size injector nozzle, I think its 550cc, post fmic.

This information above is relevant mainly because it shows the differences in pulsewidths between the primarys and secondarys, with different lag correction settings. This information also suggests that I still may need to add more lag time for my 2200s to get the pulsewidths and afr where it was before with the 1680s. complicated stuff haha.

wow very impressive finding, btw how u manage to get the car idle with those 850? I thought hard to have it run smooth with 850?

It's Not always smooth but It's acceptable, not bad. I don't use negative lag either, because a negative lag correction lowers the pulsewidth to lean out the idle, which also leans out the whole map a little which then means you have to add fuel to your map and your Idc's go up, not a problem if you have plenty of headroom.

Damn I just realized my primary injector lag settings were at 0s when they are supposed to be at .04 like they always were before I installed these 2200s. I guess I accidentally zerod these out when I first entered in the 0 lag correction settings for the 2200s and I've been so worried about those secondary injector settings I didn't even notice my primary injectors setting was wrong. So this makes another small difference in AFR, 0 lag made my afr a little leaner when I first started testing with the 2200s. I feel stupid haha, but glad I found it. Now with .04 I'll be able to pull a little more fuel out of my fuel map and reduce idc.

nevermind, I have a bad headache maybe from all this haha, I forgot I changed the InjPr lag vs batv table with the correct numbers for the 850 secondarys (from the InjSc Lag vs BatV table) so then I could zero out the Primary lag time correction. although I wonder if that affects it at all, maybe I'll have to try all my previous primary injector settings and see if that changes anything.

Tom I think you on the right track. The injectors are top notch but it's the outdated power fc that prolly has lil tricks you have to do. As a I recall, no one really played around with deadtimes vs battery voltage setting for injectors until the ID's came out. Maybe the power fc is not so accurate on that part. Playing with the actual lag might be a better way to dial them in. I wish I could experiment with this on my car but it's all taken apart. I know I was dissapointed to see 80% idc on only 14psi on td04s with id725/id2000 injector setup with deadtimes off ID website

Lots of people have tested and given their observations on how the lag time affects the primary injectors afr at idle and at wot. I've done tests and I know that any little change in the lag time of the primary injectors will change the afr everywhere, so if you make it negative to lean out the idle for 850s your whole map will be lean.

I don't think there has been anybody to test out different lag settings for these 2200 cc injectors and share results on here as I am now doing. People have recommended various lag settings for the old 1680s, but not for these. Looking at all my datalogs of various lag time settings, it is clear to me that if you increase the lag time the Power FC simply increases the pulsewidth resulting in more fuel and richer afr. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like.

Agreed, and they do not need to be modified by anyone so no need to worry about "hammer punching" modification methods. These come from bosch to flow this volume. Part number is 0280158821 and can be had for anywhere from $130-$180. The only thing needed to fit them into a rail for the older style injectors is something ( http://injector-rehab.com/shop/14mm-...2-Adaptor.html ) to extend the length of the injector so the o-rings fall at the same length as the older style.

nvrmnd. sorry

Tom,

FWIW, i just did 27 dyno pulls on my EV14s and they flowed exactly as expected. (they were 4EV14 1000 CC injectors in my secondaries)

howard

Thanks for letting me know. The weather sucks here but I'll try to get to the dyno soon to finish tuning.

Hey Tom how do u get to load ur maps likes that?
I have been trying to figure on how get my maps post it but I can't figure on how to do it?
Khris

For dat(maps) files, Right click on the file, send to compressed zip folder. then upload that zip file onto here(manage attachments, upload). Datalogs are txt files which can be uploaded directly to here.