How is this for a response & power set-up?
11-08-10, 04:49 PM
#1
How is this for a response & power set-up?
I hope this is not a silly question cause I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to turbo sizes and trims etc. but would this be the ultimate response & power set-up for around 400-450whp?
- A-spec GTX3574R T4 divided .84 (if Sean was nice enough to make one when GTX35R became available, if it's doable of course) kit
- Full-race twin-scroll manifold or similar A-spec manifold
- Dual wastegates
Or maybe GTX3582R is enough as it is?
I was going to buy an A-spec GT3574R kit but now with the introduction and hype of new turbos like GTX and BW EFR, I'm trying to see if i can get an even better single turbo set-up with help of Sean. I've sent way too many pm to him so I went public this time with my question.
I'm weighing all my options real carefully before I buy the parts due to my location because if I make the wrong decision, I can't sell my parts to anyone else easily like you guys in US. So I want to do it right the first time and I also want to have my cake and eat it too (iow ultimate power & response set-up)
The more I think the more confused I get...... single scroll, twin scroll, single wastegate, dual wastegates, T3, T4, Tial Housing.......... decisions decisionssss
- A-spec GTX3574R T4 divided .84 (if Sean was nice enough to make one when GTX35R became available, if it's doable of course) kit
- Full-race twin-scroll manifold or similar A-spec manifold
- Dual wastegates
Or maybe GTX3582R is enough as it is?
I was going to buy an A-spec GT3574R kit but now with the introduction and hype of new turbos like GTX and BW EFR, I'm trying to see if i can get an even better single turbo set-up with help of Sean. I've sent way too many pm to him so I went public this time with my question.
I'm weighing all my options real carefully before I buy the parts due to my location because if I make the wrong decision, I can't sell my parts to anyone else easily like you guys in US. So I want to do it right the first time and I also want to have my cake and eat it too (iow ultimate power & response set-up)
The more I think the more confused I get...... single scroll, twin scroll, single wastegate, dual wastegates, T3, T4, Tial Housing.......... decisions decisionssss
11-08-10, 11:32 PM
#2
The fastest responding turbo manifold will be a completely divided twin wastegate setup, with the least amount of bends, and the gentlest bends possible. A divided turbine housing with the above manifold will response faster than a Tial turbine housing, or a open volute housing. A T3 1.06 Gt35R with the above manifold will have the fastest response for those power levels in my experience.
11-08-10, 11:35 PM
#3
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Keep in mind if you choose to run dual WGs they'll most likely be dumped to atmosphere instead of being plumbed back into the DP due to complexity of piping. This is very loud and not very streetable in most people's opinions...... this is coming from a guy with a full 4 inch turboback exhaust 
11-09-10, 11:25 AM
#4
The fastest responding turbo manifold will be a completely divided twin wastegate setup, with the least amount of bends, and the gentlest bends possible. A divided turbine housing with the above manifold will response faster than a Tial turbine housing, or a open volute housing. A T3 1.06 Gt35R with the above manifold will have the fastest response for those power levels in my experience.
Also, OP, what kind of irons/housings will you be using and what kind of ports?
11-09-10, 05:35 PM
#6
You can only cross reference A/R Ratios that use the same turbine wheel.
A 1.06 T3 or T4 ( again same turbine housing just different flange) is probably smaller than a .84 T4 P trim. Regardless the bigger P trim turbine wheel is a lot laggier than a Gt35R's turbine wheel.
Jimmy, yes the 1.06 is a better balance for the power levels.
A 1.06 T3 or T4 ( again same turbine housing just different flange) is probably smaller than a .84 T4 P trim. Regardless the bigger P trim turbine wheel is a lot laggier than a Gt35R's turbine wheel.
Jimmy, yes the 1.06 is a better balance for the power levels.
11-09-10, 06:38 PM
#7
The fastest responding turbo manifold will be a completely divided twin wastegate setup, with the least amount of bends, and the gentlest bends possible. A divided turbine housing with the above manifold will response faster than a Tial turbine housing, or a open volute housing. A T3 1.06 Gt35R with the above manifold will have the fastest response for those power levels in my experience.
i have a new gt40r sitting on it that i think is too big with my stock ports though. now i gotta decide what to get. anyone wanna trade? lol
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11-09-10, 06:55 PM
#8
silver ghost
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Keep in mind if you choose to run dual WGs they'll most likely be dumped to atmosphere instead of being plumbed back into the DP due to complexity of piping. This is very loud and not very streetable in most people's opinions...... this is coming from a guy with a full 4 inch turboback exhaust
11-09-10, 07:18 PM
#9
I see full boost (14psi) by 3,700-3,800 rpm on my A-Spec 500R 1.06 divided T4, 3" DP, 1 TiAl 44mm WG re-routed, magnaflow in midpipe, RB duals. Great response and it pulls hard to 8,200 rpm. This is all on a long runner manifold... I keep hearing short manifold would spool even quicker.
11-09-10, 08:04 PM
#10
TiAL's 1.03 35R turbine housing is framed off of the T3 volute though it will flow better and offer better power. Running that setup will give you very similar response if not better response in some cases as a 35R T3 setup. We've done a few and they perform well, almost too well if not gated properly. I would look at running the GTX35R with the TiAL housing, and dual gates will help up top. If not that setup a divided .84 3574R would be the next step up from there. It might be touch off the 1.03 in response but it will make more power easier, and it will certainly not drop out between shifts like the 1.06 on the 62mm can. It would also perform very well being fully divided with twin gates. Usually my recommendation is divided T4. I drop down to the TiAL's when someone wants response, (being it is T3 framed) but not wanting to make huge power numbers. I would say if you're dead set on 450whp+ the 3574R will be the better choice. If you're dead set on 450whp as a maximum, the TiAL GTX would be nice not only is it lightweight and stainless, you need a total of three v-band clamps to assemble it four if your dual gated, doesn't get much simpler
~S~
~S~
Last edited by Zero R; 11-09-10 at 08:07 PM.
11-10-10, 05:03 PM
#11
Hmmm since GTX3574R is out of the question, looks like I have two options:
GTX35R with Tial 1.03 turbine housing + dual wastegates
GT3574R + dual wastegates
Leaving whp and response aside, the only disadvantage I see with Tial set-up is that let's say it's not what I want it'll be harder for me to go bigger or smaller in V-band tial set-up without buying another manifold whereas i can easily change to some other T4 turbo in GT3574R set-up incase I want something else.
Decisions decisions.........
GTX35R with Tial 1.03 turbine housing + dual wastegates
GT3574R + dual wastegates
Leaving whp and response aside, the only disadvantage I see with Tial set-up is that let's say it's not what I want it'll be harder for me to go bigger or smaller in V-band tial set-up without buying another manifold whereas i can easily change to some other T4 turbo in GT3574R set-up incase I want something else.
Decisions decisions.........
11-15-10, 01:51 PM
#12
I will try FP HTA 3586r T4 divided with Full race manifold and dual wastegates. The billet 3586r should spool like gt3582r but has more hp potential. 75 lbs/min flow is way out of usual
gt3682r. I am going to use it on a stock ported motor for higher exhausts speed.
gt3682r. I am going to use it on a stock ported motor for higher exhausts speed.
11-15-10, 03:12 PM
#13
^^ Sounds good. When are you doing this project?
So far I've only decided that I'll run a dual wastegate set-up (unless I test a BW 8374) but I'm still not sure about the turbo yet. My top priority is the turbo with best response/least lag for 400+ whp. Of course it should have some extra whp potential for possible future boost increase and methanol injection.
Options so far:
GT3574R
GTX3582R
GTX3582R Tial 1.03
BW 8374
FP HTA3586R
What's more is while I'm deciding on a turbo I have to think about the future incase I decide to change to a bigger or smaller turbo. I don't know how it is in our neighbour country (probably easier since you're in EU) but here it's a pita to get parts in. I would prefer to just change turbos without needing to change manifolds, wastegate set-ups etc. In that respect I belive a T4 set-up gives me more options but a T3 or a Tial set-up can give better response.
So far I've only decided that I'll run a dual wastegate set-up (unless I test a BW 8374) but I'm still not sure about the turbo yet. My top priority is the turbo with best response/least lag for 400+ whp. Of course it should have some extra whp potential for possible future boost increase and methanol injection.
Options so far:
GT3574R
GTX3582R
GTX3582R Tial 1.03
BW 8374
FP HTA3586R
What's more is while I'm deciding on a turbo I have to think about the future incase I decide to change to a bigger or smaller turbo. I don't know how it is in our neighbour country (probably easier since you're in EU) but here it's a pita to get parts in. I would prefer to just change turbos without needing to change manifolds, wastegate set-ups etc. In that respect I belive a T4 set-up gives me more options but a T3 or a Tial set-up can give better response.
11-15-10, 03:39 PM
#14
Hmmm since GTX3574R is out of the question, looks like I have two options:
GTX35R with Tial 1.03 turbine housing + dual wastegates
GT3574R + dual wastegates
Leaving whp and response aside, the only disadvantage I see with Tial set-up is that let's say it's not what I want it'll be harder for me to go bigger or smaller in V-band tial set-up without buying another manifold whereas i can easily change to some other T4 turbo in GT3574R set-up incase I want something else.
Decisions decisions.........
GTX35R with Tial 1.03 turbine housing + dual wastegates
GT3574R + dual wastegates
Leaving whp and response aside, the only disadvantage I see with Tial set-up is that let's say it's not what I want it'll be harder for me to go bigger or smaller in V-band tial set-up without buying another manifold whereas i can easily change to some other T4 turbo in GT3574R set-up incase I want something else.
Decisions decisions.........
-J
11-15-10, 03:49 PM
#15
All I know is dual is better to control boost, avoid boost creep and sounds nasty but other things may also be a deciding factor.
11-15-10, 05:27 PM
#16
Is there a difference in response and top end power between wastegate set-ups; for example dual 44 vs. single 46 or 60 to atmosphere vs. single re-routed back to dp?
All I know is dual is better to control boost, avoid boost creep and sounds nasty but other things may also be a deciding factor.
All I know is dual is better to control boost, avoid boost creep and sounds nasty but other things may also be a deciding factor.
1, 2, 5 or 10 wastegates wouldn't make a difference on boost "creep" or "response" if they were put in the wrong place, the wrong size for said application, on a shitty manifold design or routed incorrectly. Whether you run one or two wg on the Tial manifold, the most important things to consider is location geometry, housing size, manifold design and desired boost level.
In your case, I would use a single 46mm gate, with either twin vent pipes feeding a Ypipe in the firstup bend from the rotor housing or a single vent pipe at the center of the Vband collector.
In any case, venting to atmosphere is ALWAYS better. I don't care what anyone tells you.
-J
11-15-10, 06:21 PM
#17
I will tell you one 44-46mm gate at the centre of the v-band collector isn't enough with a ported rotary on a TiAL 1.03 housing the gate needs priority, the only way to do that would be what I do already on our manifolds and have them come off the first bend into a merge at the gate it will work but you will also get better overall boost control, response, and power running the two 44's versus a 60mm.
~S~
~S~
11-15-10, 06:30 PM
#18
I will tell you one 44-46mm gate at the centre of the v-band collector isn't enough with a ported rotary on a TiAL 1.03 housing the gate needs priority, the only way to do that would be what I do already on our manifolds and have them come off the first bend into a merge at the gate it will work but you will also get better overall boost control, response, and power running the two 44's versus a 60mm.
~S~
~S~
11-15-10, 07:07 PM
#19
I've seen all the above at 60psi as well. If he ran one 44mm MV-R at the collector he's going to see well over 20psi. If he runs it as we run them currently he'll have good boost control and gate response, should work well. If he runs dual gates he'll make more power from better flow up top and have better control at lower boost levels. Theoretically (meaning if he chose to) if he runs high boost he will see a improvement with twin 44's over a 60mm. Sometimes you're stuck using twins at higher boost levels simply due to spring issues, this means you need to step down the gate to get the stiffer spring. Normally on a high boost application less gate is needed yes, however on a high boost app that flows very well one gate can hold you back. Another solution would be CO2 but we know he isn't going to be doing that. We also know he will be running somewhat normal boost levels. The high boost I'm referring to is 38psi+ trying to run 40psi on a 15lb spring doesn't work all that well and my guess is if he ever chose to run the 30psi the GTX is capable of the 15lb 60mm spring wont be ideal.
~S~
and my guess is if he ever chose to run the 30psi the GTX is capable of the 15lb 60mm spring wont be ideal.~S~
11-15-10, 07:17 PM
#20
I've seen all the above at 60psi as well. If he ran one 44mm MV-R at the collector he's going to see well over 20psi. If he runs it as we run them currently he'll have good boost control and gate response, should work well. If he runs dual gates he'll make more power from better flow up top and have better control at lower boost levels. Theoretically (meaning if he chose to) if he runs high boost he will see a improvement with twin 44's over a 60mm. Sometimes you're stuck using twins at higher boost levels simply due to spring issues, this means you need to step down the gate to get the stiffer spring. Normally on a high boost application less gate is needed yes, however on a high boost app that flows very well one gate can hold you back. Another solution would be CO2 but we know he isn't going to be doing that. We also know he will be running somewhat normal boost levels. The high boost I'm referring to is 38psi+ trying to run 40psi on a 15lb spring doesn't work all that well and my guess is if he ever chose to run the 30psi the GTX is capable of the 15lb 60mm spring wont be ideal.
~S~
and my guess is if he ever chose to run the 30psi the GTX is capable of the 15lb 60mm spring wont be ideal.~S~
Also, are you telling me that you have run 60psi on a Tial 1.03?
12-09-10, 03:15 PM
#23
A GTX35R with Tial SS turbine housing is still one of the options I'm considering but I found this during a recent search and thought it might be interesting.
It's written by David Buschur from Buschur Racing:
"I've done some recent testing against the Garrett GT turbine housing on our forward facing header and now with the Tial Vband turbine housing on a forward facing header.
I was told by Tial that the housing is based around the Garrett GT turbine housing and the results should be nearly identical.
The header primaries remained the same size and the basic position of the turbo is the same. The header I built for the Tial housing is a little bit different than our standard forward facing header. I do not feel it's different enough to effect the testing by much if any.
What I found was Tial is correct the two housings are very close in performance. I prefer to do testing back-to-back as everyone knows and in this case it was no possible. A few things changed, weather being one of them with intake air temps 20 degrees higher today on the average pull.
Boost levels were kept constant during the testing.
Over the average 4 dyno pulls from 2500 rpm to 8000 rpm, checking the RPM the engine hit 20 psi on the Garrett housing I found the average to be 4912 rpm to hit 20 psi. As I said, this was a month or more ago in cooler temps and such.
Today taking the average of 4 pulls with the Tial housing from 2500-8000 rpm, the turbo is hitting 20 psi at 4950 rpm.
We're talking about 38 rpm, not noticable but I am providing the best information I can.
Peak power and the overall curve appear the same. Comparing charts from over a month ago to todays with the other variables I am satisfied and confident in saying the Tial will produce the same curve from start to finish as the Garrett GT housing.
The benefits of the Tial are of course: Full V-band design, so it comes on and off very easily. Lighter weight, stainless steel housing for better heat control and it won't rust.
One of my big worries was I didn't want to lose any power anywhere in the curve. I'm confident based on hours of looking at datalogs and dyno sheets today that it's a great quality product!
I'll be leaving the housing on my car with the custom header I built."
Link: http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-eng...g-testing.html
What's intersting is no gain or loss in power or response, almost identical to Garrett housing
It's written by David Buschur from Buschur Racing:
"I've done some recent testing against the Garrett GT turbine housing on our forward facing header and now with the Tial Vband turbine housing on a forward facing header.
I was told by Tial that the housing is based around the Garrett GT turbine housing and the results should be nearly identical.
The header primaries remained the same size and the basic position of the turbo is the same. The header I built for the Tial housing is a little bit different than our standard forward facing header. I do not feel it's different enough to effect the testing by much if any.
What I found was Tial is correct the two housings are very close in performance. I prefer to do testing back-to-back as everyone knows and in this case it was no possible. A few things changed, weather being one of them with intake air temps 20 degrees higher today on the average pull.
Boost levels were kept constant during the testing.
Over the average 4 dyno pulls from 2500 rpm to 8000 rpm, checking the RPM the engine hit 20 psi on the Garrett housing I found the average to be 4912 rpm to hit 20 psi. As I said, this was a month or more ago in cooler temps and such.
Today taking the average of 4 pulls with the Tial housing from 2500-8000 rpm, the turbo is hitting 20 psi at 4950 rpm.
We're talking about 38 rpm, not noticable but I am providing the best information I can.
Peak power and the overall curve appear the same. Comparing charts from over a month ago to todays with the other variables I am satisfied and confident in saying the Tial will produce the same curve from start to finish as the Garrett GT housing.
The benefits of the Tial are of course: Full V-band design, so it comes on and off very easily. Lighter weight, stainless steel housing for better heat control and it won't rust.
One of my big worries was I didn't want to lose any power anywhere in the curve. I'm confident based on hours of looking at datalogs and dyno sheets today that it's a great quality product!
I'll be leaving the housing on my car with the custom header I built."
Link: http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-eng...g-testing.html
What's intersting is no gain or loss in power or response, almost identical to Garrett housing