Well I tuned the old Haltechs F3 and F7 .I now have the P F C. I didnt get a really big loss cause those were NA but there is a larger difference when in Louisiana. While we are surrounded by swamp and the gulf our the humidity gets reall bad and the temp extreme are there. We hit zero with snow like last year w/ low humidity and then in August we hit 109 with 100% humidity. three days a week in the summer its get so hot that the Gulf produces two hour showers that then boil off the cement. Believe me.....I lived in L.A. ,San Fran Bay Area, and Miss. It s different here. We do see a performance difference that extend past the ECU's compensation. This is one of the old ones..........50?60's?
Carl I wish you the best on that turbo.Iknow you really want that resolved.Keep us informed on the turn around.
Art

 

The 50s & 60s was a joke It is a big challenge, no doubt, that is why some piggy backs are prefered over stand alone components by some. In Nor Cal, we range from ~25-105, but 45-400 is more the norm. Carl

 

Spoke to Precision, they will honor the warranty, stated "no problem" I also had a conversation about restrictors with them, VERY INTERESTING. I will start a new thread, but in a nutshell, anyone with 50 weight oil, and or over 80 psi of oil pressure has a time bomb with Garrett JOURNAL bearing turbos. DBB REQUIRE per Precision and ATP a ~.035-.040 restrictor, or risk blowing the seals. For a journal bearing turbo, both recomend .08-.1" restrictor above 80 psi of oil pressure(nearly all FCs, and FDs). I told them I was usig Mobil 1 20-50wt, and they stated that the 50wt would be a problem in Dino oil, but probably not synthetic. Either way, The two of the largest Garrett distributors are NOW recomending restrictors.

Before anyone jumps up and says" but they are restricted internally", that is precisely why the restrictor is required, otherwise, you blow out the internal restrictor, and then the oil seals. SO, that means most of us running un-restricted are playing with fire. I had one on my old Garrett TO4B from 10 years ago, and it came with a restrictor on the turbo, approx. .1" dia. I will do some more calling, but for now, Precision says to call them with your specific pressures, oil weight etc. they, and ATP stated a -4 feed, and a -10 drain. Note that they also stated the -3 lines now being sold (on Ebay, and by ATP) are still too large to permit use w/out a restrictor.
Where was this info the last two years while I was researching turbos? I do not know, but there is alot of mis-information out there for sure. Good thing is Precision was very firm in their statement that as long as the turbo did not show signs of abuse they would warranty it. I will get all this confirmed with Garrett/Precision/ATP, and then get it stickied. i knopw we have all discussed oil pressures before, but rarely did we talk oil weight, or specific pressure ranges. I will be measuring my oil pressure at the turbo for set-up moving forward, and hopefullywill be able to post ideal rotary specific(FC, someone else will need to do FD) restrictor sizes. Of course if you have an FC race car, then you would use the FD spec restrictor. That's it for now, I guess i just lost the opportunity to tune my car for now, mazfest, and another ~500 in assorted expenditures related to getting the car tuned... BUT we finally have a better handle on the restrictor issue. I will cross post this to the existing restrictor thread. Carl

 

sorry i just found this thread.

that turbo has definate potential!! i think it was like 325ish whp @ 6000 rpm. i told the dyno guy to set the machine for 7k twice, but i guess he didn't hear me either time. i had barely gotten the afr's into the 10's. it was so rich on the first pull it was misfiring!!

so with the curve of the graph, it looked like it would have put right around 360-365 whp @ 7k rpm. not bad!!!

afr's were around 10:1@ 6k, and leaned to 10.5 @ 7k (like i said, one pull....not enough time to get them dialed).

timing was VERY conservative @ 12 degrees @ 15 psi. we didn't have a working egt, so that kinda freaked me out enough to drop it that far.

split was 15ish in the vacuum areas, 4-5 degrees @ zero, and climbed to 20 degrees @ 15psi....conservative.

all tuned up, and depending on how much timing we can get away with with the 114 octane, 400 whp should be easy to get with 10.8-11:1 afr's.

i don't know exactly where carl wants to stop with the power, but we'll get a working egt on there and take another trip to the dyno with a new turbo and see how it goes.

 

oh yea, mustang dyno too, so add 12-14% if you want dyno jet numbers.

 

TATS HAWT

 

Hey Dave, glad you made it home (dropped him off ~15 minute before his flight). I agree the turbo is a good one in terms of spool, although I really want around 450 to the wheels with as fast a spool as I can get(I know I've always said 500, and it will be capable of that, but probably not on the track for 30 minutes at a pop). Problem is this car has to be able to to that for 30 minutes straight as it is a road race car, and last a couple seasons. If it was a street car, 500 would be NP IMHO. So, once I confirm it is the turbo, I should have it back together in a couple weeks. Dave, do you happen to remember what sort of oil pressure we were seeing? The 300ftlbs of torque(Mustang dyno) @4000rpm is what I am most excited about, imagine 14split @ 18-20psi (if I am talking out my **** LMK) Based on what you saw, what do you think of Kabooski's 520rwhp dyno @20 psi on C16? That was on a Microtech, larger port, same manifold, and exhaust. Thanks agin fot your work Dave. I would recomend Dave for electrical, and tuning based on my experience. He was professional, courteous(stayed at my house for three days), and efficient. He worked on my car in my garage, and was always focused and working. Most of the time he was working on the car, I was not there. My wife commented every time she took a peak out in the garage to offer him some food, or drink that he was always working diligently. Thanks again Dave, sorry it went the way it did with the turbo. regards, Carl

 

Thats nice to hear when people care about the work they are doing for others.
BTW who is Dave?

 

Thats nice to hear when people care about the work they are doing for others.
BTW who is Dave?Oh and thanks Carl for gettingthat oil restrictor info.....thats worth a lot of money to people in the future!

 

On the restrictor issue, the info is "developing " IMHO, I think the "restrictor thread" will hash it all out. There are definitely two schools of thought on this as is often the case when information is limited by the manufacturer. dave is Dave Segalla(Guitar junkie) He is mainly known for his engine building, but seems very competent in these other areas as well. Dave can speak up if he likes as to what he mainly likes to do. He is located in So Cal, 8 hours from me, so getting him to work on my car is a little costly due to the travel involved. Since we did not complete the tune, I can only say that he was methodical, and conservative in the early stages of the tune. He was able to trouble shoot electrical problems on the car very quickly. As an example, he had the knowledge, and confidence to identify Bosch relays as defective brand new(we bought them that day), rather than spend hours looking for what he had done wrong. Carl

 

dave is me

if we wanna milk power from the split, we can always try the "cheater" system we talked about before.

for those of you who don't know, if you take your signal leads for your trailing coils and hook them up to leading coils, then turn the split to zero at all points in your map, you can effectively run zero split with NO chance of the trailing firing before the leading.

but when you play with the split, you're just trying to milk every last bit of power out of it... we'll hit our hp goal with a conservative tune and plenty of room to spare.

as far as what i LIKE doing.....errrrr, ehhhh, well, whatever people will pay me to do--i got rent to pay

 

The restrictor in my GT40 journal bearing is not something that can be "blown out" as it's part of the CHRA casting. Doesn't oil weight thin with temperature? Wouldn't a 15W-50 really be a 15W at temp? I think I'll switch back to synthetic regardless here pretty soon just in case! I see just over 60 psi at idle when the oil is cold, somewhere in between 40 and 60 when hot and over 100 at WOT.

 

it's actually the other way around, although the oil does thin as it gets hot.

modern oil is cool-- they've got these long chains of bunched up hydrocarbons that unravel at higher temps to keep the oil from thinning out too much. that's what your 5w30, 20w50 etc...is referring to.

 

Yeah, in a nutshell, 15W50 flows like 15 weight oil at low temp and a 50 weight oil at high temp. But a 15 weight oil at low temp is still a lot thicker than a 50 weight oil at high temp, even though straight 50 weight oil is much thicker than straight 15 weight.

-Max

 

Thats what Im talking about...........but what about high rpm and boost.Would signal of 0 split still have some time difference due to actual plug location?HMMMM . Carl did this setup?Wooooohoooo!

 

na, carl's car has a little bit different ignition setup.

for you haltech guys, it's running the cas into 2 black boxes (8509's?--which it wouldn't need), ignition setup is on hall effect, and set to direct fire, using 3 msd 6a's as ignitors.

definately not the way i would have set it up if i were doing it from scratch, but it works.

but talk to anyone running a 20b with an e6k and they'll tell ya how it goes.

 

My set up will be pretty conservative, remember this is for road race 30 minutes at a time, 15-20 of those at WOT, and all above 4500-5000rpm. That is tough on any engine, and brutal on a rotary due to all the heat we need to get rid of. I will have an Aquamist 2D installed next time as well. We willprobably leave the ignition system alone until winter when all the stock wiring is coming out, and a new flying lead is going in. Carl

 

what about my P F C?

 

it'd probably work, since you have your trailing map.

it's been a long time since i did a pfc... does it have your actual timing degree numbers in the trailing map, or just the degrees of split? if it's the degrees of split, turn them to zero and tune the leading map. if it has your actual degrees, just treat them the same way you would the leading map.

 

IF you have the Datalogit to go with the PFC you can tune trailing independent of leading AND tune it by split as well if you want to do it that way. I wouldnt recommend having the PFC without the Datalogit for anyone running serious modifications (single turbo, etc...)

 

Yes as mike said but I would like to make sure that the signal NEVER delays or cross for any ungodly reason and blow up under full torque load.

 

i can't stand the pfc... the only time i'd ever use it is if i wanted an fd to pass smog legally. well, almost legally.