850 primaries and 4x 1500 secondaries is a bees dick off 9000cc at 4 Bar base, revs definitely matter in terms of full power resolution too, if it's peaking 7000-8400 vs a PP or semi at 9000-10500 there is a fair whack less dead time and more effective flow without going fire hose spec.


That turbo will be at max shaft speed and falling off efficiency at that point. Without being calous if someone has an ecu that capable and isn't running a very tight overboost limiter, egt, fuel pressure differential, lambda fail to gate pressure/rpm or full cuts they deserve a rebuild to think about effort vs reward for next time.

Likewise if you really think you need 3 high pressure pumps, what you need is a mechanical pump and a small high pressure pump for start assist.

 

Not trying to state right or wrong, but another perspective is not to be stressing out the fuel system at max demand. Even OEMs employ this strategy. The injector brand/type can possibly influence the decision some depending on how accurate they flow at short mS intervals. Another consideration is the fuel flow balance between primary and secondary flow paths. Still further, using water-only vs water-alcohol vs no injection can influence the decision as well. There are numerous considerations at play.
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I am shooting for 650rwp. I am going for (2) ID1350CC Primary and (4) 1700CC Secondaries. These are the only 2 injectors that are 100% stainless internals for E content fuels.

I am also planning to go to the firewall and use a -8AN Y to split into the primary and secondary fuel rails(parallel) as opposed to stock loop setup. The both back out to FPR. Hoping this will maximize balanced flow to both rails.

Eric

 

As far as I know every XDS injector - the only current production ID injectors (the rest are old stock I believe) - are completely stainless. Prior to the XDS terminology changeup there were a few models that weren't completely alcohol safe.

 

I heard David Mazzei used the unmodified Bosch 2200cc cng injectors in his 4 rotors with good results and likely using the same on his new 5 rotor? Anyone else have any experience with them?

 

@ iceman4357...

Here's a note from the Injector Dynamics site should you have any inclination to utilize 93+ petro:

"The minimum fuel mass of the ID1700x is low enough to provide stable stoichiometric idle and cruise mixtures on E85, but too high to consistently deliver the same on gasoline, on most engines.

If you need flawless drivability on gasoline, the ID1300x will provide this while delivering enough fuel for approximately 150hp per injector on E85."

Conclusion: I'd go w ID1300x primaries & ID2600x secondaries for your power goals, which should give you plenty of head room when running e85.

 

On the flip side with large ports (accepting low VE), very soft timing, more idle throttle/air to reduce lope and 12.5AFR/0.85 lambda target for smooth idle as most people run (if they didn't port it just for brap idle) you are probably not far (possibly in favor of resolution on the 13b) from 500cc/cylinder recip piston lambda 1 idle injector on time using 1300s with the 1700s on a 13b. The flow split for charge mixing would probably be better with 2600cc secondaries too.

Just doing the maths the on time should actually be decently higher on 650cc rotor at 0.85 lambda than 500cc per cylinder trying for near stoic with 1300s, let alone 400cc or 325cc/cylinder 4 bangers. You have to remember guys with 1.3/1.5, 1.8L 4 cylinders, 1JZ, RB 25/26 are probably looking at these injectors too and people have been idling pump fuel rotaries on 1600 and 2000cc injectors for a long time.

edit, quick google suggests Subaru guys see no difference in idle quality too.

 

I'm pretty sure @10sec rx7 hates them and tells everyone to steer clear of gas injectors due to inconsistent performance.

 

I don't think there is any reason not to do 2600 secondaries.

 

real 2200's are ok if you look after them, the 1600 long EV1 plug are bad....

 

Good to know and thanks. If they worked in a 1000+hp 4 rotor for years then surely it cant be all bad. Iirc David mentioned to run a 6 micron fuel filter before the injectors and if you premix then the oil in the fuel acts as a lubricant which prevents corrosion. The important bit is to get them flow matched and the injector data supplied should help with tuning.

https://www.speedingparts.co.uk/p/fu...00cc-ngi2.html

 

Injector Dynamics hasn’t sold the original style injectors in many years. They’re all XDS style now; 1050, 1300, 1700, 2600. Some people claim they’re overrated.

Yet how many people heard the often unspoken jewel stated by Rob Dahm in his video achieving 700 whp with the S4 FC and Garrett G40-900 regarding the window of injector timing opportunity for fuel to either enter into the the rotor housing chamber or to instead slam into the side of the rotor? The truth of the matter; timing and window of opportunity are the all in all of it.
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^^ Exactly! They're all XDS now
from the xds2600 tech page:
My setup is 1050/2600 for pump fuel

 

there is so much confusion. I called ID injector directly. He said that you can run the 2600, but because its a plastic design it can swell with E fuel content.

 

Can anyone offer any known references for it having ever been a specific issue?

…

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They might have got confused with "Ether" fuels (MTBE, ETBE, TAME)

 

We were specifically talking about E85 when he made that comment.

I had 3 different sources tell me that the 1300 and 1700cc were all steel construction and that they would suggest for E85(or mixture of). Bob with FIC, Aaron from Full Function(formerly worked for ID Injectors), and ID Injector tech directly. No idea if that is 100% accurate or not. lol

If I remember correctly, ID mentioned that the 2600 is a modified version of the smaller injector and used some plastic pieces to achieve that flow rate. Again, dont know if that is 100% true either, just what I was told. There seems to be A LOT of grey area around getting straight answers on injectors. Hence the Bosch EV14 vs ID injector debates.

Eric

 

Very interesting and I found some interesting info about unmodified Bosch injectors! It seems Bosch sells stainless steel internal injectors up to 1400cc, like this one https://www.speedingparts.co.uk/p/fu...or-1400cc.html

However, anything above 1500cc doesn't seem to have stainless parts according to the seller and confirmed by them (Speeding).

That got me curious about ASNU's 1500cc injectors (which i currently use), which they say are stainless steel. They flow nearly identical to the 1400cc Bosch injector, but ASNU provides ECU tuning data, which is very helpful. However, it does make you wonder if there's a connection... Maybe it's not a coincidence that ASNU's biggest injector the 1500cc and the unmodified 1400cc Bosch is the biggest stainless internal. Obviously, i doubt ASNU will confirm of deny if their 1500cc is basically an unmodified 1400cc bosch?

So what do you get for nearly triple the price?
ASNU state "All ASNU Performance Injectors have a multi-hole orifice cap, cut using the latest laser technology for greater accuracy and repeatability. Using this technology allows us to produce injectors with specific spray patterns and flow rates to meet the customers' exact requirements. The seven-hole orifice cap that we use in most of our injectors in the lower end of the range (300-1000cc) offer an ideal combination of Fuel Flow, Fuel Distribution and Fuel Atomisation. The seven holes produce smaller fuel droplets that will burn more efficiently, giving more performance and more laps for less fuel. This is a critical factor and should be considered when comparing ASNU injectors to any other Performance injectors. Correct combustion is not about how much fuel you put in the engine, but how efficiently you get the fuel to burn and that alone will determine the engine's combustion performance. Achieving a designated BHP does not always mean that you will achieve the maximum performance of your engine. ASNU Performance Injectors will allow you to maximise the engine's power curve and give instant throttle response and maximum fuel economy."

So their marketing material looks promising, whether or not its true....is a difficult thing to test. The positive is the customer service from ASNU has been faultless.

There's also IDX with their 2600x injectors, which seem like a modified Bosch 2200cc made specifically for ID which they tinker to get a 2600x. The more important thing is to get the injectors flow matched.

Strangely it seems like modifying Bosch injectors is a thing!

On balance, it makes sense to go with a modified injector like ASNU or IDX which has injector data making your tuners life easier. However, for those capable of mapping their own cars. A flow matched set of the unmodified bosch injector could be worth a closer look.

I'm waiting on Speeding to answer a couple more questions about the bosch 1400cc and the 2200cc injector, but on paper the 2200cc injector gives the lowest dc.

 

I'm still learning about injector angles, but I wanted to ask, are these numbers ATDC or BTDC? I am also a street port, so I figured these would also be a good base for me. my AEM only does SOI, and my car runs ok, but I think it could be better (there is some sputtering here and there on light throttle, and so hesitation on things like downshift throttle blips). I've found some literature from Mazda that states an S5 engine used 95 deg BTDC under 3K RPM and 185 deg BTDC above 5k RPM (with a linear advance in between), so your numbers would be similar if they are BTDC.

 

I have used 2000+ ID2600X injectors with a 0 Failure rate. Not a single seized injector. I don't believe I have had a scenario of a dirty injector either.
We use 10 micron fuel filters for all our fuel system installs and I think this is key to injectors surviving the test of time.

the 2200CC Bosch injector is a good injector, very nice to tune with. The reason I stopped using them was seeing how much variation of flow we saw from batch to batch, for the hobbyist who is only building one car it may be appropriate, for a shop who is looking for repeatability and consistency, it was not the best option for me. Yes we pay a lot of extra $$$ for the luxury of consistency but in my opinion it is worth it. Of course just my opinion. Bosch allow up to 5% variation I believe on their motorsports injectors, not sure what they deemed acceptable on their CNG injectors.

 

Hi mate, this is a very tricky and complex topic. I'm no master but will share factual data on this topic courtesy of Adam from Link ECU's.

Remember, there is a "TDC" every 360degs.

Link SOI injection timing numbers are referenced as BTDC. Please be 100% confident this is the same in the AEM. If its TDC, ATDC or BTC etc, you need to check with AEM or an expert who can convert those numbers because it is VERY IMPORTANT you get this right, otherwise your engine is toast!! This is an advanced topic and should not be something newbies try to mess with for the sake of fun. Leave it to stock AEM values if you dont understand enough about this topic or about tuning in general.

For a Link ECU on stock port FD3S engine the fuel injection value is 130BTDC. This is after the exhaust port closes (confirmed by Adam at Link and this is their base SOI value).With a ported engine the "overlap" region will get wider meaning the exhaust port will close later so you will have to start injecting later. This means your start of injection will need to move to the right meaning smaller BTDC numbers. So you will need to trial and error smaller BTDC values and by that i mean smaller numbers than 130BTDC.

"I've found some literature from Mazda that states an S5 engine used 95 deg BTDC under 3K RPM and 185 deg BTDC above 5k RPM (with a linear advance in between), so your numbers would be similar if they are BTDC"

90BTDC below 3k rpm seems to work well for a Streetport and even a semi pp I've tuned. Smooth throttle response below 3k rpm.

185 deg BTDC above 5k RPM - This is wrong for link ECU. Remember 130BTDC is when the stock exhaust port closes. 185BTDC means you are injecting directly into overlap/open exhaust port.
Some guidance to get you into the right ball park.
90 BTDC to 3krpm or 4krpm depending on your port.
120BTDC for a large street port above 3-4krpm to redline.
Semi PP, J port, PP etc 90 - 110 deg.

Hope this makes sense, if it doesnt stick with the base fuel injection value as the ECU engineers should have picked that value for a reason.

 

that’s why I asked if anyone knew of any documented issues with the 2600 because I’ve never heard of any. Thanks for sharing as always.
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Agree with the IDX and ASNU injectors, the reliability, consistency and the injector data is worth the extra monies.

For the 2200cc bosch how or where did you get injector data for deadtimes or pulse width adders at different base fuel pressures? I believe speeding offer flow matched services for the stock 2200cc injector to have 1% or less variance. I may give it a go if i can find injector data.

 

Injector data isn't easy for Bosch injectors. It's all 2nd hand information most of the time. Another reason ID is a go to, they actually have the equipment and know how to provide good data. Most other companies do not

 

Yes very true injector data alone is worth is additional premium.
I've found some speculative data which suggest the Bosch 2200cc was the base model for the older ID2000 and the data is transferable. Will test and see if it works.