Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

It has never made sense to me for people to run –AN Fuel lines, Bigger Injectors, and then restrict the whole thing using stock Fuel Rails. (By the way, using a -6An line to your rails is actually more restrictive than stock.) It’s the same mentality as putting on a 5” tip on a 2” Exhaust pipe. It won’t flow any more than the narrowest restriction. Your stock rails are that restriction.

If you’re gonna re-do your fuel system, don’t overlook your rails. Putting –AN fittings on stock rails is no help either, do it The Right Way. You need larger injectors, lines, a good pump, and good rails for FUELVOLUME.

Thanks to Crispeed,

Here are what REAL FUEL RAILS look like. The -10AN fittings are welded on, so there will never be a fuel leak problem.

On to the Pics (Sorry, some are old)

Primary Fuel Rail…








This Primary Rail is for an FD, but the Block and Intake is from a Cosmo-RE

Secondary Fuel Rail…









Guess What? He’s selling them as a kit now, and has prepared the final jigs for mass production. If your interested in either Primary, Secondary or both Fuel Rails, give him a PM, and see if he’ll hook you up.

setzep

Well time to stir the pot a little

1. How is running a -6 line more restrictive then stock, my stock line was 5/16 od?
2. It's doesn't matter if the stock fuel rails are the most restrictive point in the system, thats where the fuel pressure regulator is.
3. You really like to use that word volume don't you?? Truth is fuel pressure is more important than volume but without volume there is no pressure so they are related.
4. What makes you think the way you did your fuel system is "The Right Way"? It may work but if you ask me it's overkill to say the least.

Lets do a execise.
Say the typical turbo 13b has 2 550cc primarys and 2 1600 secondaries. Thats a total of 4300cc's woth of fuel (at 100% duty). Lets convert that into GPM. 4300cc/16.38(16.38cc/Cubic inch)=262.51 cubic inches. 262.51/231 (231in^2 in a gallon) = 1.13GPM. So if your fuel injectors were held open they would pass 1.13GPM at 43.5psi (I think thats the right pressure they test injectors at). I think a popular pump is a 255lt/hr, thats only 1.12gpm. How much pressure drop through the system do you think there is @ only 1.12gpm?? I'd say almost nothing, probably how riceracing is able to run the stock FB lines on his car.

ok, let the flames begin

Node

iTrader: (1)

Thats sick looking. Very nice.

luiml73

iTrader: (1)

Hey alex, Is your car at crissspeed's shop right now? The reason I ask is because my friend was over there last weekend, and he told me he saw a Badass FB there. So I figured it might be yours.

Bridgeported

Those rails look VERY nice. There is a point where they need upgraded for sure... not sure what that point is, but you might as well do it when you upgrade your injectors/pump/lines. Save yourself some time, and it won't cost you more b/c you will need ot upgrade them in the future anyway.

VERY NICE RAILS!

3rdGen7

Humph... and to think I was running his *** down for some time to get him to do my whole fuel system ..now that I bought all the parts to make it myself he comes out with a kit ...sheesh ..just my luck

sub-zero

Contact Josh ( Silver7) for both rails. Great rails and very decent prices.

rxrotary2_7

i just listed an auction for a primary rail i have. here is the link.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6755

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

You would wouldn't you..

Go Look at an FD Fuel line, and a -6AN line. The -6AN has a smaller internal diameter than the Stock FD line. If you're gonna upgrade your fuel lines, go with a -8AN or bigger, otherwise you're wasting time and money.

You are correct, they are related. A smaller line may be able to provide the same volume at a higher pressure. But ask yourself - WHY Upgrade then? You can run more power by turning up the boost too - Why upgrade Turbo's?

There is a point where you are passing their efficency rating and you are maxing out the system, making everything run at higher stress levels. When you do that, there is less margin for error.

Plain and simple - More volume = Less pressure on the whole system (lines, fuel injectors, and most importantly, that poor little fuel pump...

The "Right Way" is total unabashed, self promotion, with a little bragging thrown in. - Sorry about that. As I said in that beginning of that thread, There's a hundred different ways to do it. Of course I am going to think mine is the right way.

Overkill? For now it is. Remember Cam, I am only shooting for 375-400 rwhp for now. Eventually, when the speed bug bites me (and it will), I will port that Cosmo engine and go for crazy numbers. I can't let AJC13B have all the FB fun. When I do that - I won't have to even think about the fuel system. It's already there.

I don't want to have to upgrade twice, and spend more money while doing it. There's no such thing as too much fuel volume in an EFI enviroment (properly tuned).

You DO know that you don't want to run 100% duty on your injectors, - EVER. With Larger lines you get more volume, less pressure, and less duty cycle. I don't want to have to go over 75% Duty cycle now, or in the future.
With 720 primaries, and 1600 Secondaries, I think I am good to go.

Cam, I know what your're trying to get at.
In theory, you are correct. When you apply these things to a car in real life, there are wayyyy too many variables to consider that screw up the numbers substantially. The type of fuel pick-up, the kind of filters, Any kinks in the lines, - are they crudded up? Are the fuel injectors working properly, or are you using aged injectors. I have seen these things with my own eyes, and the differences can between identical systems was substantial.

Also, Unfortunately, Fuel systems like the one you mentioned cannot be calculated properly. A Rotary throws things out of whack & Boost really screws up the formulas. The Fuel Injection Calculator that is on the net for second gens isn't that accurate when you throw Higher Boost and Big HP into the mix.

Again, it's better to have a larger safety margin.

Rice Racing is in a league of his own. He has built his car from the inside out, and know what the limits of his system are. He runs water injection and a host of other goodies. which affect the whole system in general. I don't know if he really runs stock fuel lines or not, but Peter is on top of his game. On the GSL-SE, the stock fuel lines are very nice sized too. I am using the GSL-SE fuel pick-up because it is essentially the same diameter as a -10AN line. I could have probably gotten away with using the stock lines for about 300hp or so.

Either way, I doubt RiceRacing would think that an upgraded fuel system and or rails would be a bad idea.

No Flames here, you have valid points. I am trying my best to answer them in layman's terms. After all, we are Turbo FB brothers here. We need to keep each other in check.

No Luis, That's not mine. The one he saw is nice, but it's been sitting there for a long time. The owner needs to come and get it, as Cris hasn't worked on it in a long while. (I can't say I blame him, nobody does Big time work for free)

50tooslow

Not to get off subject, sorry. Oh my god who is the chick in your sig?
Sorry again but man she's hot.

Bridgeported

That's what I was thinking! I clicked on her pic to see more pics, but I got that funny top lifting flash. Damn. Oh well, it was cool too

82streetracer

iTrader: (1)

so whats the hp limit on FD and FC fuel rails.

im setting up my system right now.

Im looking at 400 MAX on race gas, but even that is probably optimistic.

will the stock rails work.

setzep

Sorry, didn't know that you were specifically talking about the FD lines.

My point was I didn't see a need up upgrade to a degree that far. At the fuel flows we are talking about I doubt there is much of a pressure drop with a -6 line. 1.12 gpm isn't a lot of flow (255lt/min pump). I just don't think we will be anywhere close to the the level where we need -10 lines.

I'm not sure how more volume is going to put less stress on the system? Your pump is going to determine the volume, not the line size.

hehe, only 375-400 rwhp. You plan turning that sucker into a drag car in the future?

I suppose when you are shooting for 2000rwhp you'll have the line size already there

I hear what you're saying about Steve having all the fun But his fun comes at great expense.

Of course I know that 100% duty is not what you want to run. I was just saying that as a worst case scenario to calculate fuel flow.
Once again, larger lines may hold more volume, but your fuel pump has all the say about what the flow rate is. It really doesn't matter what how much fuel the lines can hold.
How do you get less pressure in the system with larger lines? The pressure in the system is determined by the fuel pressure regulator not the line size (unless they are too small and assuming your pump can keep up with they system demand)
If you never want to go over 75% duty on your 720/1600setup thats only good for 500bhp (assuming 40psi pressure drop across the fuel injectors).

I was just giving an example of how little flow the "upgrade" fuel pumps flow. At1.12gpm there is going to be almost no pressure drop across the fuel system, even with stock FD lines (if they have a ID larger than -6). I'm willing to bet when people upgrade there lines and see a improvement it's due to a old/dirty fuel filter or old cruddy lines, not because of the actual line size.

I doubt he would think it's a bad idea to get new stuff in there but I'm not sure he would recommend -10

I'm with ya 100% on that one

setzep

I'm not sure you can find the limit of the stock FD/FC fuel rails without dynamically testing them on a flow bench. But remember every system is going to be different due to, line size,fuel filter, fuel pump, suction line/strainer...ect...ect... But the FC rails have been proven to well over 400bhp. The best way to test your system is to install a pressure gauge on the fuel rail itself and watch the pressure as you drive, put a load on the engine, going into boost. If the pressure starts to drop you need to upgrade one of the items in the fuel system.

Or you could just go the dirrectfreak way and run the biggest/best over everything and be done with it

82streetracer

iTrader: (1)

then I dont NEED to change them.

Thanks.