Color single diagram finished!
07-12-04, 03:46 PM
#27
Rotary Enthusiast
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I vent my purple to open air, capped the yellow, ditched the charcoal can a long time ago, so no line is needed.
Lastly, I ditched my oil PCV and other line in favor of a neg pressure greddy oil catch can. This line goes from the oil neck to the intake side of the turbo creating constant vac.
Lastly, I ditched my oil PCV and other line in favor of a neg pressure greddy oil catch can. This line goes from the oil neck to the intake side of the turbo creating constant vac.
07-12-04, 04:26 PM
#28
Rebreaking things
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Originally posted by donny
The OMP injectors dont use a vacuum. The vacuum lines running to the intake are for venting purposes and emissions only. There is a 1-way check valve built into those injectors allowing air OUT and not in, so there is no possible way for them to use vacuum. The oil is brought up those lines via the "oil metering pump" thats why it is called a pump.
The OMP injectors dont use a vacuum. The vacuum lines running to the intake are for venting purposes and emissions only. There is a 1-way check valve built into those injectors allowing air OUT and not in, so there is no possible way for them to use vacuum. The oil is brought up those lines via the "oil metering pump" thats why it is called a pump.
I personally believe the valve is used to prevent the motor from sucking too much oil in under vacuum. All the shops I have talked to have confirmed this. Damon believes it is used to prevent oil starvation at startup. This may also be true, but KD Rotary often plugs the air vents when doing single turbo installs. Dave is a Mazda trained mechanic. I find it hard to believe Dave would do this if Damon is correct.
Whatever the case, it seems worthwhile to keep the nipples on top of the valve open. If you decide to do so make sure they get a filtered air source because they will draw air directly into the combustion chamber. I was thinking of putting two small filters on top of mine-like what is used for the solenoids.
Last edited by CCarlisi; 07-12-04 at 04:30 PM.
07-12-04, 04:32 PM
#29
Ee / Cpe
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I had my omp injectors out a week ago... i was able to blow through each side, no check valves that i could find.. Maybe mine are fubar'd though..
(i dont give a **** either way cause i run haltech)
(i dont give a **** either way cause i run haltech)
07-12-04, 11:51 PM
#32
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Originally posted by Michael Filippello
Ok, I looked at a 3rd gen engine that is apart at Maztech. On the LIM there is a hole that exits the manifold just above the primary intake ports. This hole is fed air via the nipple with the yellow line as stated. This hole, lines up with a slot on the center housing just above the two intake ports. This slot has two small holes that pass through into the injector seat/ oring area. One hole for each injector. They do not go into the engine as I previously thought. They are as decribed in the quote above. I would like to know in more detail, how it works.
By the way, I also looked at a center housing from a different year/model, and it had these two holes also. I assume it was a 2nd gen turbo motor but I am not sure. Jeff was busy and I was not able to find out. Many people just cap this line yet have the stock primaries
I believe this is from lack of understanding its exact function. If we don't know what it does, then we don't need it. Just cap it is what i always get for a response. Mazda put it on multiple years so it is not unique to the 3rd gens' over needed systems and must be important. I have kept mine functional but the majority of people I have asked are always unsure what it does and just say cap it.
Mike
Ok, I looked at a 3rd gen engine that is apart at Maztech. On the LIM there is a hole that exits the manifold just above the primary intake ports. This hole is fed air via the nipple with the yellow line as stated. This hole, lines up with a slot on the center housing just above the two intake ports. This slot has two small holes that pass through into the injector seat/ oring area. One hole for each injector. They do not go into the engine as I previously thought. They are as decribed in the quote above. I would like to know in more detail, how it works.
By the way, I also looked at a center housing from a different year/model, and it had these two holes also. I assume it was a 2nd gen turbo motor but I am not sure. Jeff was busy and I was not able to find out. Many people just cap this line yet have the stock primaries
I believe this is from lack of understanding its exact function. If we don't know what it does, then we don't need it. Just cap it is what i always get for a response. Mazda put it on multiple years so it is not unique to the 3rd gens' over needed systems and must be important. I have kept mine functional but the majority of people I have asked are always unsure what it does and just say cap it.Mike
Mike
pic works for me too
07-16-04, 11:00 AM
#33
RX-7 Bad Ass
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The vacuum line going to the primary injector seat is to help fuel atomization at low load. You get a differential pressure, and it helps with atomization.
The '87-88 turbo 2nd gens only had it for the primary injectors, and the '89-91 turbo 2nd gens had it for both primary and secondary. I've never looked at the 3rd gens, though - obviously they have it on the primary, not sure about secondaries.
Regardless, it's a Good Thing. Keep it.
Dale
The '87-88 turbo 2nd gens only had it for the primary injectors, and the '89-91 turbo 2nd gens had it for both primary and secondary. I've never looked at the 3rd gens, though - obviously they have it on the primary, not sure about secondaries.
Regardless, it's a Good Thing. Keep it.
Dale
07-16-04, 12:22 PM
#34
Big Snail
So you can vent the charcoal canister and totally eliminate the blue vacuum line in the diagram? And if you are going to run premix you can just plug the nipples on top of the oil injectors..correct? Gonna be doing the single install soon any help would be great. Thanks..Tony
07-19-04, 01:33 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by DamonB
Not true.
The injectors are above the OMP and once the engine (and therefore OMP) is switched off the oil will siphon back down the OMP lines and into the pump. Then at the next engine start the OMP would have to prime the lines again before ever getting oil into the engine, thus starving it of OMP oil at startup.
That valve in the injector is like putting your finger over the tip of a straw. If you dip a straw into a glass of water the straw fills with water but runs out as soon as you lift it from the glass. If you put the straw into the water and then put your finger over the end you can then pull the straw out and hold the water in. That's exactly what the little valve on top of the OMP injector does; once vac is gone the diaphram closes across the top and holds the oil in the OMP lines so it can't drain back.
The OMP injectors would still function normally with the engine running without vac present on the valve, but the oil would siphon after shutdown. This means at startup the engine seals get no lubrication as the OMP has to prime the lines again.
The injectors are above the OMP and once the engine (and therefore OMP) is switched off the oil will siphon back down the OMP lines and into the pump. Then at the next engine start the OMP would have to prime the lines again before ever getting oil into the engine, thus starving it of OMP oil at startup.
That valve in the injector is like putting your finger over the tip of a straw. If you dip a straw into a glass of water the straw fills with water but runs out as soon as you lift it from the glass. If you put the straw into the water and then put your finger over the end you can then pull the straw out and hold the water in. That's exactly what the little valve on top of the OMP injector does; once vac is gone the diaphram closes across the top and holds the oil in the OMP lines so it can't drain back.
The OMP injectors would still function normally with the engine running without vac present on the valve, but the oil would siphon after shutdown. This means at startup the engine seals get no lubrication as the OMP has to prime the lines again.
correct me if I'm wrong.
07-19-04, 07:32 AM
#36
Perpetual Rebuilder
Originally Posted by Michael Filippello
yes, I capped it at the UIM and at the Oil filler neck. The 94 and 95's do not even use the PCV as I understand. The factory eliminated it. I just did the same
mike
mike
It is not always possible to hook into intake side of turbo so you will have to keep the PCV valve if you cant.
Oh and I know this from experience so pay attention!
07-19-04, 08:54 PM
#37
Perpetual Rebuilder
Oh and by the way I did the following on my setup.
Capped the yellow line at the LIM.
Capped the orange line at the metal line near the front of the secondary fuel line.
Removed the purge control, and catch tank and vented charcoal to atmosphere.
Pulled my FPR line from the back of the UIM near the MAP sensor.
Ran the purple lines to a filter then to atmosphere.
Oh and of course I dont have caps on the lines that go through the LIM.
Also it was my uncolored/unfinished drawing you started with and I am glad someone has taken this further than I did - unfortunately I dont have the time I used to when I started it.
Oh and you need the change "their" to "there" on your drawing. And there really is no debate - you need one or the other of the orange or aqua-marine.
Capped the yellow line at the LIM.
Capped the orange line at the metal line near the front of the secondary fuel line.
Removed the purge control, and catch tank and vented charcoal to atmosphere.
Pulled my FPR line from the back of the UIM near the MAP sensor.
Ran the purple lines to a filter then to atmosphere.
Oh and of course I dont have caps on the lines that go through the LIM.
Also it was my uncolored/unfinished drawing you started with and I am glad someone has taken this further than I did - unfortunately I dont have the time I used to when I started it.
Oh and you need the change "their" to "there" on your drawing. And there really is no debate - you need one or the other of the orange or aqua-marine.
10-14-04, 07:06 AM
#38
development
Originally Posted by dcfc3s
The vacuum line going to the primary injector seat is to help fuel atomization at low load. You get a differential pressure, and it helps with atomization.
Also I ran the purge system just like stock with out the solenoid (Haltech) and all seems to be well, no gas smell with a full tank.
10-14-04, 01:45 PM
#39
Tenseiga
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Originally Posted by dcfc3s
The vacuum line going to the primary injector seat is to help fuel atomization at low load. You get a differential pressure, and it helps with atomization.
The '87-88 turbo 2nd gens only had it for the primary injectors, and the '89-91 turbo 2nd gens had it for both primary and secondary. I've never looked at the 3rd gens, though - obviously they have it on the primary, not sure about secondaries.
Regardless, it's a Good Thing. Keep it.
Dale
The '87-88 turbo 2nd gens only had it for the primary injectors, and the '89-91 turbo 2nd gens had it for both primary and secondary. I've never looked at the 3rd gens, though - obviously they have it on the primary, not sure about secondaries.
Regardless, it's a Good Thing. Keep it.
Dale
This is the same as the omp. That's why the vac is there to help atomize the oil. While your doing this make sure the check valve works otherwise you lose compression
10-14-04, 02:12 PM
#40
development
I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about?!?
no check valves involved...well, only on the purge system to prevent my gas tank from filling with boosted air :EEK: nothing to do with compression
Vac to help atomize oil? with what air? ummm, I definitely don't understand that statement.
how would atomizing air/fuel lean out your idle? if anything you'd get a better burn of the mixture, smoothing out your idle.
no check valves involved...well, only on the purge system to prevent my gas tank from filling with boosted air :EEK: nothing to do with compression
Vac to help atomize oil? with what air? ummm, I definitely don't understand that statement.
how would atomizing air/fuel lean out your idle? if anything you'd get a better burn of the mixture, smoothing out your idle.
10-14-04, 09:14 PM
#41
Tenseiga
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the omp nozzels don't see vaccum. It allows air and oil to get sucked into the combustion chamber.
draining your oil with the oil filler cap on takes longer (not ours since it has holes).......... same deal......... revmove the cap and your oil flows better...... (air displacing used oil).
That's the easiest way i could think of but not a perfect model of the omp system............
for the idle it will due to the computer using less fuel do to a more complete "burn" or combustion stroke since it's atomized better.
draining your oil with the oil filler cap on takes longer (not ours since it has holes).......... same deal......... revmove the cap and your oil flows better...... (air displacing used oil).
That's the easiest way i could think of but not a perfect model of the omp system............
for the idle it will due to the computer using less fuel do to a more complete "burn" or combustion stroke since it's atomized better.
10-15-04, 02:24 AM
#43
Originally Posted by donny
The oil is brought up those lines via the "oil metering pump" thats why it is called a pump.
10-15-04, 07:55 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Actually the oil metering pump is not appropriately named since it isn't a pump at all. It is an oil metering valve. There is a rotating valve inside it that opens based on ecu signals sent according to what rpm and load the engine is at. The old mechanical pumps just used a rod to open them based on throttle position. The oil itself is pushed through the lines with pressure from the same oil pump that sends oil through the engine.
10-15-04, 02:09 PM
#46
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IC piping would be bad for omp
if there is a flat section you could use the brass hardware fittings found in lowes/home depo and just tap the fitting in. Not sure how brass/alum welds together but if it can be done i would go that route.
if there is a flat section you could use the brass hardware fittings found in lowes/home depo and just tap the fitting in. Not sure how brass/alum welds together but if it can be done i would go that route.
Originally Posted by the_glass_man
So much confusion! My head is spinning! 
Where's a good place to get the line fittings to weld into the intake/IC piping?
Where's a good place to get the line fittings to weld into the intake/IC piping?
10-15-04, 02:19 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by little rotor
I agree completely. I pulled an FD OMP apart and studied it. I came to the conclusion that the reason the pump is driven by the engine is that it distributes oil to each nozzle at the required time in much the same way as a distributor routes spark to the correct HT lead. It isn't a pump at all and relies on oil pressure. This made me wonder about the kits that replace the pressurized engine oil with a non-pressureized resovoir of two-stroke oil. If the OMP works like I think it does then no oil would be injected.
It does not rely on oil pressure. If you trace it back on the front cover it is fed by an oil return line.
therefore the non-pressureized systems will work fine.
The oil is pulled up by the intake stroke of the engine.
I think we're way off topic here
10-15-04, 08:22 PM
#48
So do we leave the LIM extra nipples vented or should we cap them?
The fuel rail (Purple) and OMP (Yellow) lines can just be vented to air, but should have some kind of filter, correct? Any benefit to running them before the turbo on the intake side as just opposed to using a crank case filter?
The Aqua/Orange (Oil filler neck) can be eliminated with one single line to a vented catch can? Correct?
The blue one can be eliminated with the charcoal canister all together.
The fuel rail (Purple) and OMP (Yellow) lines can just be vented to air, but should have some kind of filter, correct? Any benefit to running them before the turbo on the intake side as just opposed to using a crank case filter?
The Aqua/Orange (Oil filler neck) can be eliminated with one single line to a vented catch can? Correct?
The blue one can be eliminated with the charcoal canister all together.
10-15-04, 08:38 PM
#49
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dont' need caps on the lim
your colors ares witched.
The purple are the omp nozzles
the FPR is the green
the primary injector air bleeder is the yellow
if you use a catch can you can take out aqua/orange.
i don't run the blue even on my stock twins (yes on removed charcoal).
your colors ares witched.
The purple are the omp nozzles
the FPR is the green
the primary injector air bleeder is the yellow
if you use a catch can you can take out aqua/orange.
i don't run the blue even on my stock twins (yes on removed charcoal).
10-15-04, 08:41 PM
#50
Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru
dont' need caps on the lim
your colors ares witched.
The purple are the omp nozzles
the FPR is the green
the primary injector air bleeder is the yellow
if you use a catch can you can take out aqua/orange.
i don't run the blue even on my stock twins (yes on removed charcoal).
your colors ares witched.
The purple are the omp nozzles
the FPR is the green
the primary injector air bleeder is the yellow
if you use a catch can you can take out aqua/orange.
i don't run the blue even on my stock twins (yes on removed charcoal).