Bullseye power S366 problems; any knowledgable diagnoses?
09-15-12, 01:17 AM
#1
I win
Thread Starter
Bullseye power S366 problems; any knowledgable diagnoses?
Car is a 93' Rx7 built motor from JPR, 3" exhaust, 2.75-3" intercooler piping, filter on compressor, SS feed and drain lines.
This is the 2nd center section within 3k miles I am dealing with, at idle it emits some blue smoke I know its burning some oil, after its warmed up the center section will emit smoke can smell the burning oil right away.
Driving sometimes on take off it leaves a massive smoke screen, I get compressor surge unless I get between 7-10psi then I finally hear the greddy BOV.
It also spits oil out on the compressor side not a lot I believe but defiantly spits a little out, the outside of the center section looks like oil was used to clean it off so its spraying oil out of the center section.
Does this oil problem with the turbo go along with the surging issue or is the surging a problem of its own?
I am assuming the center section is in need of a rebuild, does anyone know where I can acquire a rebuild kit? Also there is no restrictor in the oil feed line as I was told since its a journal bearing it should be fine without one, don't know if that matters. I rather not buy a 3rd center section for 700-900$ and have another paperweight so rather risk 100-175 on a rebuild kit and hope for the best
This is the 2nd center section within 3k miles I am dealing with, at idle it emits some blue smoke I know its burning some oil, after its warmed up the center section will emit smoke can smell the burning oil right away.
Driving sometimes on take off it leaves a massive smoke screen, I get compressor surge unless I get between 7-10psi then I finally hear the greddy BOV.
It also spits oil out on the compressor side not a lot I believe but defiantly spits a little out, the outside of the center section looks like oil was used to clean it off so its spraying oil out of the center section.
Does this oil problem with the turbo go along with the surging issue or is the surging a problem of its own?
I am assuming the center section is in need of a rebuild, does anyone know where I can acquire a rebuild kit? Also there is no restrictor in the oil feed line as I was told since its a journal bearing it should be fine without one, don't know if that matters. I rather not buy a 3rd center section for 700-900$ and have another paperweight so rather risk 100-175 on a rebuild kit and hope for the best
09-15-12, 01:50 AM
#3
I win
Thread Starter
Yea figured that at the very least but defiantly makes me feel better getting others input on this.
Would like to know if the surging goes along with this problem or if its from something else...
Also where would I be able to order a rebuild kit since I will be doing it myself. Another quick question the nut that holds the comp wheel on the shaft is threaded regularly correct?
Would like to know if the surging goes along with this problem or if its from something else...
Also where would I be able to order a rebuild kit since I will be doing it myself. Another quick question the nut that holds the comp wheel on the shaft is threaded regularly correct?
09-16-12, 10:19 AM
#5
If this is your second turbo that you've had problems with I would look at your oil return line setup. In all my years I've never blown a Borg Warner turbo. If you've had problems with two there's surely something wrong here. I can have it rebuilt for a reasonable cost if it's just the bearings but I refuse to give figures encase there's a shaft problem. Regardless I can keep below the $500 mark for sure.
09-16-12, 12:57 PM
#6
Car is a 93' Rx7 built motor from JPR, 3" exhaust, 2.75-3" intercooler piping, filter on compressor, SS feed and drain lines.
This is the 2nd center section within 3k miles I am dealing with, at idle it emits some blue smoke I know its burning some oil, after its warmed up the center section will emit smoke can smell the burning oil right away.
Driving sometimes on take off it leaves a massive smoke screen, I get compressor surge unless I get between 7-10psi then I finally hear the greddy BOV.
It also spits oil out on the compressor side not a lot I believe but defiantly spits a little out, the outside of the center section looks like oil was used to clean it off so its spraying oil out of the center section.
Does this oil problem with the turbo go along with the surging issue or is the surging a problem of its own?
I am assuming the center section is in need of a rebuild, does anyone know where I can acquire a rebuild kit? Also there is no restrictor in the oil feed line as I was told since its a journal bearing it should be fine without one, don't know if that matters. I rather not buy a 3rd center section for 700-900$ and have another paperweight so rather risk 100-175 on a rebuild kit and hope for the best
This is the 2nd center section within 3k miles I am dealing with, at idle it emits some blue smoke I know its burning some oil, after its warmed up the center section will emit smoke can smell the burning oil right away.
Driving sometimes on take off it leaves a massive smoke screen, I get compressor surge unless I get between 7-10psi then I finally hear the greddy BOV.
It also spits oil out on the compressor side not a lot I believe but defiantly spits a little out, the outside of the center section looks like oil was used to clean it off so its spraying oil out of the center section.
Does this oil problem with the turbo go along with the surging issue or is the surging a problem of its own?
I am assuming the center section is in need of a rebuild, does anyone know where I can acquire a rebuild kit? Also there is no restrictor in the oil feed line as I was told since its a journal bearing it should be fine without one, don't know if that matters. I rather not buy a 3rd center section for 700-900$ and have another paperweight so rather risk 100-175 on a rebuild kit and hope for the best
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09-18-12, 12:33 PM
#9
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Instead of getting a bunch of mis information, why don't you have Jim at JPR diagnose and fix it? He is more then capable then any keyboard warrior.
09-18-12, 04:58 PM
#12
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First off not every car is the same so what works on one doent mean it works on all of them.
#1 what is you oil pressure like its probably high as hell .
#2 what is your oil return line like i wanna see it sloped downhill to the return no up hill turns or bellies in it.
#3 I HAVE A .060 RESTICTOR IN MY TO4S. rotaries tend to have nasty oil pressure much more than piston engines.
#1 what is you oil pressure like its probably high as hell .
#2 what is your oil return line like i wanna see it sloped downhill to the return no up hill turns or bellies in it.
#3 I HAVE A .060 RESTICTOR IN MY TO4S. rotaries tend to have nasty oil pressure much more than piston engines.
09-19-12, 08:14 AM
#13
First off not every car is the same so what works on one doent mean it works on all of them.
#1 what is you oil pressure like its probably high as hell .
#2 what is your oil return line like i wanna see it sloped downhill to the return no up hill turns or bellies in it.
#3 I HAVE A .060 RESTICTOR IN MY TO4S. rotaries tend to have nasty oil pressure much more than piston engines.
#1 what is you oil pressure like its probably high as hell .
#2 what is your oil return line like i wanna see it sloped downhill to the return no up hill turns or bellies in it.
#3 I HAVE A .060 RESTICTOR IN MY TO4S. rotaries tend to have nasty oil pressure much more than piston engines.
I thought non ball bearing turbos were not supposed to use oil restrictors.
09-19-12, 12:28 PM
#14
die bitch! 
journal bearings require slightly more oil than a BB unit. usually you want to regulate the oil pressure down to 40psi, maybe even slightly lower. oil pressure differential tuning can be tricky because oil pressure is not constant in the engine, and some setups have modified the engine oil pressure even higher! with a BB turbo you can run a bit less but with the journal bearings you should start mid range and work down jet size from there. i see more turbos die from excessive oil pressure than a lack of it, but take that with a grain of salt because going too far clamping down oil can severely cut the ability of the CHRA to shed heat which causes friction and wear.
"Reduced Oil Flow - The ball bearing design reduces the required amount of oil to provide adequate lubrication. This lower oil volume reduces the chance for seal leakage. Also, the ball bearing is more tolerant of marginal lube conditions, and diminishes the possibility of turbocharger failure on engine shut down."
ATP TURBO - The Premiere Provider of Turbocharging Components
if you really want to know, you can adapt an oil pressure gauge between your restrictor and the turbo to see what oil pressure the turbo is actually seeing. i never see anyone actually do it, even though that pressure can tell you if it is a problem or not. too much oil pressure can kill a turbo almost as quickly as none at all, but the difference is that the seals are usually the only parts compromised.
too small of a drain line or oil backing up in the drain line hose can create excessive oil pressure on the feed side as well. one thing to consider is the REW block has 2 drain ports on the engine from the turbos, using a single drain port with the stock diameter may be too small for your drain setup.
if the car is roughly tuned or not tuned at all, this can dilute the oil with gas. diluted oil will eat bearings, hence the question if the oil smells heavily of gas, turbo bearings will get chewed up before engine bearings will due to the conditions they have to meet.
the turbo may look like a simple part with a simple function but you can't just feed it oil and expect it to work flawlessy. we are talking about parts with components spinning in excess of 100,000 RPMs with marginal sealing characteristics, more rigid sealing would hinder turbo performance dramatically so it is always a fight for balance versus performance.
but i do agree with Ernie, sometimes if you keep having issues it is best to spend a little time and money to have a professional look it over. spending $500+ at a time per rebuild you are on the losing end.
"Reduced Oil Flow - The ball bearing design reduces the required amount of oil to provide adequate lubrication. This lower oil volume reduces the chance for seal leakage. Also, the ball bearing is more tolerant of marginal lube conditions, and diminishes the possibility of turbocharger failure on engine shut down."
ATP TURBO - The Premiere Provider of Turbocharging Components
if you really want to know, you can adapt an oil pressure gauge between your restrictor and the turbo to see what oil pressure the turbo is actually seeing. i never see anyone actually do it, even though that pressure can tell you if it is a problem or not. too much oil pressure can kill a turbo almost as quickly as none at all, but the difference is that the seals are usually the only parts compromised.
too small of a drain line or oil backing up in the drain line hose can create excessive oil pressure on the feed side as well. one thing to consider is the REW block has 2 drain ports on the engine from the turbos, using a single drain port with the stock diameter may be too small for your drain setup.
if the car is roughly tuned or not tuned at all, this can dilute the oil with gas. diluted oil will eat bearings, hence the question if the oil smells heavily of gas, turbo bearings will get chewed up before engine bearings will due to the conditions they have to meet.
the turbo may look like a simple part with a simple function but you can't just feed it oil and expect it to work flawlessy. we are talking about parts with components spinning in excess of 100,000 RPMs with marginal sealing characteristics, more rigid sealing would hinder turbo performance dramatically so it is always a fight for balance versus performance.
but i do agree with Ernie, sometimes if you keep having issues it is best to spend a little time and money to have a professional look it over. spending $500+ at a time per rebuild you are on the losing end.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 09-19-12 at 12:50 PM.
09-20-12, 12:09 AM
#18
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when ive seen this happen it was either the return was choked, to small and my favorite one (non rotary) some guy tapped his oil pan to low that the oil would get back up and pool at the turbo lol.
09-20-12, 03:20 AM
#19
From experience, yes the real stuff. My journal bearing turbo was putting a very small amount of oil into the compressor cover. However each cold start between the 3rd minute of running and the 5th minute of running it would blow a fair amount of oil smoke. I'm presuming colder than 2minutes running the oil was not burning off and after 5minutes of running the oil was burning before it made its way to the exhaust tip.
Anyway my test results, which did indeed fix my problem.
4.5bar /65psi oil pressure at 1500rpm. Using a -4AN line from the front plate into a graduated container not flowing through the turbo., the oil flow was 825cc in 12 seconds.
I repeated the test with the same -4AN line pumping through the turbo, draining into the graduated container. This time I got 700cc in 15 seconds.
I installed a 1.0mm flow restrictor into the turbo oil feed and got 300cc in 15 seconds, measured at the turbo oil drain, this also fixed the smoke problem, but I was hoping for around 1500cc/min oil.
This is with an excellent condition 17.5mm early oil pump and a 95psi rear oil pressure regulator on a freshly built motor being held at 1500rpm.
I came to the conclusion that 1.0mm was slightly too small for my journal bearing turbo, and 1.5mm would be too big because it more than doubles the flow area.
I had decided to drill my restrictor out to 1.2mm, however I broke my rear plate in my engine before I got a chance
Anyway my test results, which did indeed fix my problem.
4.5bar /65psi oil pressure at 1500rpm. Using a -4AN line from the front plate into a graduated container not flowing through the turbo., the oil flow was 825cc in 12 seconds.
I repeated the test with the same -4AN line pumping through the turbo, draining into the graduated container. This time I got 700cc in 15 seconds.
I installed a 1.0mm flow restrictor into the turbo oil feed and got 300cc in 15 seconds, measured at the turbo oil drain, this also fixed the smoke problem, but I was hoping for around 1500cc/min oil.
This is with an excellent condition 17.5mm early oil pump and a 95psi rear oil pressure regulator on a freshly built motor being held at 1500rpm.
I came to the conclusion that 1.0mm was slightly too small for my journal bearing turbo, and 1.5mm would be too big because it more than doubles the flow area.
I had decided to drill my restrictor out to 1.2mm, however I broke my rear plate in my engine before I got a chance
09-20-12, 12:22 PM
#20
It wasn't me!!
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It's unfortunate that your pleasant attitude isnt consistent throughout the forum, Ernie insults you and take it without batting an eye lash..
In all things, you make the choice to help, no one is breaking your hand to help, so stop looking for praises.
Thanks anyway for your help on the forum!
Cheerios ole chap
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