MaxDuo

I'll probably give you one sometime soon :P

oneevilwankel

thanks for the welcomes..well when he came in i couldnt really sit and chat..i work at eckerd and i was running the register..so i didnt get to see his car..and you are right bahama isnt that far at all..i ride through one part of that when i go out to my cousins house near orange county speedway..but thank again..and by the way when is it you guys meet at the char-grill?

r0t0rhead

iTrader: (12)

Hey guys, Just poked my head in here and thought I'd add my 2 cents worth to the "debate" at hand.

I agree with Ashraf on the foibles and cost ratios of the various 7's and Miata's. On a typical day I have both the challenge, and priveledge of test driving a variety of 7's. Might be an '84 RX7GSL- SE or a highly modded 3rd generation RX7 with a single turbo & 500 God Fearing HP, maybe an automatic Convertible, or a turbo Miata. On weekends when I can afford to-I go racing- Road Racing- no Track Day restrictions. not into Dragg either. Everything from Spec Racer Fords to an SCCA ITS class RX7 to C-sports racers and even a Trans-Am Series tube chassis Corvette.
So what? Who cares? How is this relevent to the debate?

Because (IMHO)every car is a machine and should be driven and enjoyed for what it is! I get a different rush from driving a convertible through the Mtns. than I do by nailing turn 12 at Rd. Atlanta. Different but just as much fun!
Bert is also correct- we rotorheads just don't enjoy the satisfaction of driving our cars. Its also the comraderie with fellow enthusiasts plus the feeling we get when the damn thing just looks right and we look back at it when we park it. Come to think of it,its not just RX7's but anything automotive that's really neat.
Ya'll have fun- I gotta go test drive a BMW M6 then get back to work on my Maserati Bi-Turbo- it wants a new clutch, and tuning too!

GTUser

I also welcome you to the Drive-Ins. Here is the link to the page with all the directions to the Char Grill on Strickland, https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...&page=12&pp=10, we meet on the second and fourth Saturdays of each month at 6:30 PM. We'd love to have you join us and see if the meetings are right for you. Check the last meeting out on page 65 I post the pics from that drive-in.

Bert

GTUser

Bryan from RotorSports Racing sent me some pics from their last race at Road Atlanta, thought y'all might enjoy seeing them:
1.

2.

3.

Also how many people want to go in on the group buy for the spark plug wire sets that have offered. All that can let me know by PM or at the first August drive-in.

Bert

oneevilwankel

thanks for telling me when it is..i already know how to get there..i used to go there and to the goodberrys adjacent to it..and i have been craving some char-grill burgers and one of those awesome shakes..ahhh..but you just gotta prmoise you wont laugh at the car..she is a little trashy bc the motor is going bad(very bad)..and its two different colors haha

NCTII87

good lord those are some big pictures! haha, that car is sweet though. glad to see its in front of all the miata's....

GTUser

OOPs, sorry for those pics, didn't mean to supersize'em. Try these:
1.

2.

3.

NCTII87

much better! appreciate it bert. that an s4 or s5?

bond007

I may carry out a strongly worded intellectual argument but at least I don't resort to name calling. Apparently I have misjudged my audience with a few exceptions that I can count on one hand.

My enthusiasm for my Miata could be equated to the same the zeal that is exhibited by any RX-7 owner, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gen. So who is truly more open-minded? The person who only owns and works on x gen RX-7 and thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread and scoffs at the other generations of RX-7 or someone who plays with and has driven all sorts of RX vehicles, recognizes that they all have unique characteristics and virtues, and is happy to work with all of Mazda's unique vehicles?

BTW: I met someone online who doesn't believe that an RX-7 was made after 1985, so how does THAT make you 2nd and 3rd gen owners feel? Uh-huh. I thought so.

This sounds an awful lot like the 911 guys that think the 914/924/928/Boxsters aren't a Porsche. You think that we are a bunch of zealots...imagine a bunch of zealots with a lot of money to spend...

technonovice

In praise of Ashraf, his FD ran ok when he put it on stands. He made a mature and wise decision to pre-emptively act upon some warning signs. He could have run the car for who knows how long before something catastrophic occured. He exercised discipline that many on this forum have lacked. An owner's discipline & education are key in reliability of any car.

rotarymike

iTrader: (1)

Wow, such hostility. You know, I've known Ashraf for about 4 years now and I've never noticed any particular *****-ness. He can be a bit pigheaded at times, but we who are a bunch of folks who drive, spend money, and time on cars ranging from 25-9 years old with no real collector value with issues obtaining reasonably priced parts (for the older cars, parts at all). Hello, Pot, my name's Kettle. I see you are just as black as I am.

For Ashraf, the FD is his idea of wicked fun. I (being his FC friend) don't like them as much, because although they can be fast, they don't (to me) possess the 'soul' that FB, FC, and FE do. I like driving to be fun instead of terrifying, and the FC to me is the best vehicle for that. I've driven a well-modded FB and a mostly stock FC on the track, and the FC more easily interprets my instincts into successful smooth lines. On the other hand, I've also driven and enjoyed a Camaro, an MR-2, and driven the snot out of some econo boxes you wouldn't believe could be that fast. I like a little more character out of my hard-driven cars than I can get out of an FD... just a personality mismatch. That was almost overcome by the white on black FD, but I no longer buy a car because it's pretty.

Being an FC Turbo owner, it was natural to compare technology and prices with Ashraf when we first met. FD parts are more expensive for a good marketing reason: FD people, statistically, can and will pay more. My downpipe, from the most respected company in the business was $80 or so. The same product for an FD tends to run close to $300. Having analyzed the RX-7 community from a marketing and business operations perspective the FC and FB people typically just don't have the money. The exceptions to that want their classic FB to be pristine, or their FC is a dedicated track car and no longer a street car. I bought my FC for $2300. I bought my FB for $150. He bought his FD for $20,000, which is an amount higher than anything I've spent on a car although the Subie came close. Subaru performance parts, BTW, are priced similar to FD parts, and those engines aren't as bulletproof as you've been led to believe. Marketing at work, we hates it.

Why did I look at the demographics? Well, as a mechanic by trade and businessman by education, I want to make money doing something I like, such as make things for cars and if necessary work on them. The sad truth is that the FB and FC people won't pay. They whine about no one fixing their cars, and then you offer to fix their cars, they are willing to pay little or nothing. Then the individual I'm specifically thinking of took his car to a local rotary shop of ill repute and got quoted a price much higher than mine. Look, people, I cannot afford to consider every FC owner with a screwed up car a charity. I can look at it, I can tell you what to check, but if you want half an engine's worth of parts and several days labor then there better be money involved - I don't make enough to give everyone a freebie. I've done almost that - I replaced and engine for a fellow once, 24 hours straight roll in to drive out, swapping everything external to the engine and then having to troubleshoot his burned used components versus his unknown used components. I think I got $400 for this, which if you do the math is $16 an hour.

Find a shop that charges that.

I've installed simple race electronics (headset mic and audio to a radio) for $50 an hour and had the well-informed buyer think that a bargain. Ashraf has worked on several FDs with full disclosure of the (sometimes extensive) costs up front, and no one has quibbled. As an aircraft mechanic I regularly billed $85 an hour for certified work.

I guess I've rambled a bit, but the type of behavior this thread is exhibiting is the reason I quit hanging out with the Camaro crowd.

BTW, more of my friends have Miatas now instead of RX-7s, and none of them are the Sunday-drive versions. The best driver in our club, as well as the fastest, are both Miata drivers... and have owned and loved RX-7s too. Someday I may own a Miata, if the turbo engine doesn't spruce my FC convertible up enough to be fun. Maybe I'll buy an RX-8 someday, since those drive with some character as well. But I will never dis one of our club unless he's being a total idiot in the face of all proof.

rotarymike

iTrader: (1)

Wanted to add:

1st gen - cheap to buy, cheapish to mod, limited performance without drastic engine changes. Then, you're limited by the antiquated suspension. But VERY fun, which is why I still have mine.

2nd gen - medium expensive to buy ($5000 for a nice S5 T2), can be nearly as expensive as an FD to mod or as cheap as a 1st gen depending on what you're starting with and where you want to end at. Very capable car. Simple exaust mods make an FC straight-line as fast as a stock FD.

3rd gen - still moderately expensive to buy ($10-20K) and very expensive to mod. Exhausts, computers, suspension, aero stuff, all more $. Drives like a cup car and requires same skill to drive really fast.

RX-8 - pretty reasonable new car price, no idea about mods yet but expect FD prices.

Miata - cheap to expensive ($2000-24,000) depending on what you get and what you want. Cheap to mod (think production economies of scale). Fun to drive.

What do you want to drive? It's a personal question. It is different for everyone. I wouldn't drive an FD, or Ferrari, or Supra, or modded turbo FC to work every day. I'd be limited to walking within a year and maybe in jail or a ditch.

What do you want to work on? I really enjoy working on my FB, because I am free to engineer, improve, improvise. It was pretty reliable, despite having run for a while with the timing 30 degrees out (not my fault) and sitting for 3 years... until I started modding it with exhaust, home-built EFI, different engine, etc. I don't mind too much working on my FCs because I've done so much of it that it no longer takes a long time to fix stuff. Does that mean that FCs are nonreliable? No, it means I've owned 6 as daily drivers and no one ELSE could work on them. My FC Turbo never stranded me or broke down badly until a coolant seal went at close to 170,000 miles. I do to an extent mind working on FDs mostly because the engineers were bitch-whipped by the designers and there is more mechanicals than there is approprate space under the hood.

But what I really like is driving RX-7s. If I could do that without ever working on them, I would. THAT is my hobby and THAT is my passion, not the turn of wrench on bolt or the sound of the lift motor. The surge of boost and the squall of tires at cornering limits is why I do this crazy hobby. It's why I can justify selling my last running RX-7 to buy parts for the ones that don't.

What Ashraf is saying is that you'd be better off, in terms of time and money, to start with a car prepared more or less how you'd want it. This isn't something you can find as an FC... modded ones usually don't get sold until something catrastrophic happens. We keep them as long as they run. But FD owners, judging by ebay ads and other evidence, DO mod their cars and then sell them. I know I could more easily justify keeping my 90 T2 worth $3000 or so to my girlfriend if we suddenly became pregnant and needed the money than I could a $15,000 FD. Regardless if I've spent almost the FD amount on the engine, the FC is essentially still worth the same amount it was when I bought it, or less.

You know, Porsche and BMW people are as fervent about their cars as we are. Some more so. Do they adamantly work on their own vehicles? Not as a large percentage of owners. (marketing research, done via some of the UNCG marketing libraries, supports that). Their parts are as, if not more, expensive than FD parts. The potential used BWM owner is told to expect at least $2000 in maintenance per year. With a committment to that amount, the car can be maintained such that it will run nearly forever. It is said that to buy a Ferrari you need to be able to afford two, to pay for maintenance. This is what Ashraf is getting at. If you spend $15000 on an RX-7, you need to have some more cash in the bank to pay for repairs. The amount of repairs tends to go up in both average cost and in frequency for modified cars. I've seen so many people buy a marginally maintained car and spend their time and money on mods, and end up with a car that's very fast. When it runs. Which isn't often. And when they finally break down and redo everything, either themselved or with a shop, the amount of time and money spent is astonishing, and disenheartening.

If you ARE mechanically inclined, there is nothing special on any generation of RX-7 save the engine internals. Troubleshooting on ANY car is a lost art only learned through long experience. That long experience is what he is telling you to look for, him or otherwise, when you are considering a car.

GTUser

I think we've all spent way too much time trying to explain what Ashraf or any of the respondents said 4-5 pages ago. This is the same type of discussion that generated the interest in a new group several months ago and that seems to have turned out OK, but we're wasting alot of RAM trying to convince each other of things that we're not going to change our minds on. We all enjoy our cars for the individual reasons we have and are willing to spend money and time on them. We should freely give our opinions when asked and leave it alone when we don't have any solid input. Opinions are like dipsticks, we all have one and you shouldn't stick it where it isn't needed.

We've all expressed our opinions and that's just what they area OUR opinions. I can enjoy my 7 without any real concern what anyone thinks about it or how I drive and maintain it. It is my car, my money, and my time. Its my hobby and lets all enjoy or cars and share our interests when we can. I can appreciate everyone's opinion and the fact that you are free to express it on line.

technonovice

You sound like an individual who is secure with his car. No cockiness to emotionally camoflauge a fragile ego. I wish more forumites would be so reasonable. I enjoy my RX-7 and nothing anyone can say can upset me. I am confident I made the best choice for me.

NCTII87

i think i'l stick to the rx7 meets, the miata's can stay at the mazda sports car meetings. i just dont feel like we all work on one level here. Just really didnt like the vibes i got from some people at a meet that thought that no one had anything worth a **** but that a miata. i mean, he did a good job again, considering... we'll let that one speak for itself.

technonovice

Really? That surprises me. The majority of the folks have RX-7s. Most of the Miata drivers also own or have owned RX-7s. Oh well. There is no harm in going where you are more comfortable.

GTUser

Yes, and amen to both you guys. We have what we have because it is what we want and enjoy. I really like all the RX7 gens and I think the Raleigh Drive-In crowd has a pretty good sense of humor and enjoys kiddin' back and forth about our cars, our attitudes and our opinions. I think that is what makes this forum and our meetings so much fun, We enjoy each other and appreciate our 7s.


Techno, Welcome to the discussion. that is the only attitude, after all we own, maintain, and drive 7s and that is enough to rejoice in everyday. God has blessed us with this wonderful machine and allowed us to share our life and finances with it. I own a rotary vehicle, therefore I have more important things to worry about than what someone thinks of how I use and care for it.

Dave, I also agree with your very wise conclusions. We have the best cars in the world, probably in the universe, and we know how to keep them running, 'nough said!

I have heard, now it is only rumor, that God invented the rotary on the in the first 7 days He would never have been able to rest on the 7th day, he would've spent that day tuning and dynoing his 7. He waited a few million years until he had the other important stuff in the universe up and working. Have y'all noticed that all universal forces are rotary, the planets rotate on their axises, the solar systems rotate arount their suns, the galaxies rotate around a central point, even electrons rotate around their nuclei, and we have engines that go round and round. Can we get anymore harmonious with our universe and God's eternal plan?

Looking forward to the 14th and that kick-*** 8 over near Steve.

technonovice

I think we all have to be careful that our behavior does not mimic our criticism. I think some of the posts here have treaded perilously close. Bert has made a diligent effort to moderate this discussion. Each group...any group... will offer various benefits and shortcomings. Perhaps they are incomparable. There does not have to be a choice between them.

Each can be asset to the community fostering different aspects to the passion of our cars based on the interests & talents of the members. There is no need to disrespect anyone or insinuate fault within a particular group to tarnish its integrity. Any organization that brings people together for good intentions deserves credit.

I am glad folks are getting together Saturdays. It is inspiring to see growing local enthusiasm for the rotary. I appreciate the work that MSSCCNC has done the past few years to keep the flame going and the technical knowldge its members have .

rotarymike

iTrader: (1)

What I learned about, and liked about, the rotary community when I started doing things like the Super Street Tours and NOPI and the MSCW Rotary Expo stuff in the late 90s is that people from different aspects of the sport can get together and talk coherently and interestedly about technical things and generally have a good time.

We as a group decided before I left the top post that although we wanted to include pretty much any like-minded car enthusiast, we didn't want to be a generic car club, which is why it is the Mazda Sports Car Club of North Carolina instead of the NC RX-7 Club or something similar. We tried that at first, and didn't have enough people show to make it worth the 2 or more hour drive.

The problem any group, and this was certainly true of MSCCNC when I started it and ran it for what, 2 years? I digress. Point is, groups like this that want to do something other than a social meet need people willing to devote time and resources to get stuff done. When MSCCNC was started, within a year or so we had 60 members participating around half the time, and we started looking into doing an autocross or perhaps South Course at VIR for a day. We had some really decent events like the first RBQ in Clemmons that had Bruce Turrentine as a guest speaker and some guy who ran OneLap. The economy went south and people started not coming to meetings, selling the extra car (the RX-7 of course) and generally dropping out of site. My race partner totally vanished, as did much of my disposable income, and many of us were in a similar state.

Now MSCCNC is a group of friends with a common interest in cars. We've more or less retained the same core membership for the past several years even though many people have moved on to other vehicles. We try to welcome new people in but when you start talking about things that cost money (track day, enduro karting, autocross) and precious time you can't get any support. There is more to running a club than 1 person can do by himself, or even 2 or 3 people. Everyone has to have a vested interest, or nothing happens.

All we ask of people interested is that they come with an open mind, and not
foment discord. You may hear an opinion you don't agree with... that's good. We learn from comparing viewpoints.

If you as the Raleigh group are really that tight, you need to come to our meetings too, and together we can form a group big enough to get actual benefits like parts discounts at the dealerships, or a cheap track day here and there, or raffles for parts etc. etc. There's more out there than just a meal with good friends, but you need numbers to go after it.

If all you are after is some social bonding with other drivers of similar cars, which is by no means a bad thing, then have at it. I may see you at a meeting here or there, or you are welcome to come to one of ours.

NCTII87

i understand everything you all love about your club. its probably everything that we love about ours. i felt like when a msccnc member came that he felt he was much better than all of us. also, was stuck on road racing or w/e and due to this talked a little trash trying not to make it obvious. he checked out every car there and didnt really have anything good to say except, you did a good job, then added considering... i'd love to know what he was considering. i feel as if MSCCNC is a pure road racing, miata loving group that really has no interest for anything but those 2 from what i've heard. i've never heard anyhting good about the club from an RX7 owner. ahh, i dont know why im going on with this. i hate talking **** like this but i felt someone violated when others began doing the same in another way. i cant say lets all be one big happy family cause it wont happen. hows, "lets all be 2 big happy family's" sound?
ok, im retarded. steve and i are headed to winston salem, catch y'all later! FC's for life- haha!

rotarymike

iTrader: (1)

Well, there's only 2 of us (John and Ed) that road race, and although one of them has a Miata both actually race RX-7s. When you look at someone's car, if you are an experienced modifier it's polite to suggest improvements.

I don't know what your deal is. You are saying we're all Miata driving track fiends based on what? Did you ever come to one of our meetings? Do you even know the extent of our membership, those that don't read this forum?

I don't know you, have AFAIK never met you, and already I don't like you because you are prejudiced against people not also like you. Nothing personal, just communications differences.

Johny zoom

iTrader: (5)

I probably could add a little, but Its best to let this die, It's only creating more tension among Mazda groups.
Bert; I love the way you so poetically talk about your/our cars. Oh yeah Edgumicated is slang for educated Ill be at school next week, Does one week at VA Tech make me a hokie?

Steve/Dave I thought injectors were like bank accounts and Boobies (Bigger is better) No actually I didn't realize the s-afc wouldn't drop down enough to tune the injectors. I think I'll get me 4 720cc injectors. I'm going to offer to trade the 1600's for 720's if anyone is interested.
Josh; Ill bet all this rain has made you a nervous wreck! ha

There is a race this weekend saturday at VIR if any one is interested.
Take care
Johny

r0t0rhead

iTrader: (12)

Speaking of meetings- Mike -if you have a chance -try attending one of our Charlotte area meeteings- we're a bit informal -(we don't even keep minutes) but we have a good time! In general its more a social meeting rather than technical discussions. Personally I welcome the relief from the usual work related questuions. Anyway- we mix it up-from benchracing to football. Its usually a pretty eclectic & fun group that just happen to drive Mazdas.
Regards,
Bryan

r0t0rhead

iTrader: (12)

Bert- you are also welcome to attend and bring a friend too!