Double_J

iTrader: (28)

Subscribing to this. Great work guys!

g14novak

iTrader: (1)

I haven't read through the past 10 or so pages to check, but if you can modify the compression ratio on these, couldn't you go up over 10:1? Wouldn't this be super effective with NA cars? Say going 13:1 or 14:1 compression. The aluminum makes the rotating assy lighter so you can still rev high and the high comp = torque. Maybe I'm completely lost here.

eastcoastparts

iTrader: (1)

Well you are not lost that for sure. We will be testing a set of 10:1 rotors in the next few weeks. We are also working a new compression chamber so we can go to 11:1 and then 13:1. It should work i see why not. The horse power on a N/A set up with 13:1 rotors, has to be incredible and we will try it.

helghast7

iTrader: (6)

ohhhh interesting maybe i can finally give my FC a little kick

ultimatejay

iTrader: (1)

I've heard from some top builders that higher compressions don't make any more peak hp in a rotary motor. Jim Merder from racing beat said that he dynoed 8.5,9.7 and 10.1 rotors and all of them produced about the same peak hp but the 10.1 rotors made more low end torque and power and hence the reason Mazda put it in the Renesis. He was telling me it had something to do with the shape of the rotor housings. The rotary engine is far different from a piston engine when it comes to compression, but it looks like you will be confirming this. Good luck and I hope for the best.

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

Another reason to run a higher compression ratio is efficiency. The more you compress the air/fuel mix, the closer you get to a 100% utilization of the energy offered by the fuel. This is one of the main reasons why diesels are more efficient than gas engines. Diesels run 18:1+ and huge boost levels (the old 7.3L Ford Powerstroke ran ~30psi of boost w/a ~18.5:1 CR) to gain efficiency. While it may not increase top end power much, it will help with keeping the energy in the engine and not going out the exhaust as unburnt fuel.

Awesome updates. Looking forward to seeing these products hitting the market. How did the billet front plate testing go?

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

there has definatly been quite a bit of share of discussions regarding this, and the concessus is like mention, not much more peak hp, for the extra stress that this puts on the engine, not sure if its worth it in that sense.

enzo250

You can't compare diesel engines to rotary's let alone gasoline piston engines..

Diesels run on detonation, so they will run better with more compression/boost/heat..

Less compression allows more air/fuel to fill the camber and with that more power will be achieved.. 8000hp FC/TF cars don't run alot of compression.

Rx7_Nut13B

iTrader: (1)

What 7.3L Ford ran 30+/- pounds stock, none of them

A stock 7.3L Turbo will fuel cut at 23-25psi of boost.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Higher compression ratios with the 10a-13B geometry won't make more power as the air fuel mix is ignited before top dead center when the trailing side of the combustion chamber (split along the minor axis of the housing) is larger than the leading side of the combustion chamber.

This expanding combustion must then travel through the slot in the rotor to the leading side of the rotor before it can exert force in the correct direction to make power.

So if you have too small a slot in the rotor for the expanding combustion to pass into the leading side of the combustion chamber as the power stroke continues you will exert a force against the power of the engine as the combustion pushes back against the rotor on the trailing combustion side.

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

No, you can't compare diesels to any gasoline engine from a fuel standpoint, however a higher compression ratio will result in a more thermally efficient engine, regardless of fuel or engine type (piston vs. rotary).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

Abstract;To avoid knocking phenomena, the authors have developed a new piston-crank mechanism with a couple of leaf-shaped gears to move piston faster than of usual engine near TDC. Higher brake thermal efficiency was obtained because of the high compression ratio and the lower cooling loss, however the engine speed was limited up to 1600r/min. A new mechanism of an eccentric cam system for higher engine speed was designed and built. Engine test up to 3000r/min was achieved to verify this concept. (author abst.)...

From: http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/articl...06A0851765.php

A final bit of reading for you (from a Fundamentals of Thermal Fluids (Thermodynamics) book):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kme...ciency&f=false

Sorry for getting off topic OP. Staying tuned for more updates

ultimatejay

iTrader: (1)

^ Yeah, that's what Jim Merder from RacingBeat was saying. Like I said and Enzo said before, a rotary engine is totally different from a piston engine and you cannot compare the two.

jantore

I must say you guys are doing a hell of a great jobb with this.

Getting a 10:1 bilett rotor in my 4 rotor would be nice.

Any plans for the future to maybe make a custom made center plate and front plate. To be able to send water from the center plate back around the rear plate, and forward around the front plate. And then have the water come out in the center plate on the exhaust side.

Now that would be a great mod for a 4 rotor, to help the cooling alot.

What would the price be on 4 10:1 bilett rotors? Id be interested in that for my 4 rotor

Push 11 000 rpm on it

JT

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I cant agree 100 % with horse power and compression comments. We know for a fact that if you have 8.5:1 rotors and you go up to 9.7:1 your horse power and torque increases. Now, there is a limit to how high you get up with the compression, until we can design a new compression chamber. We are working on new chamber designs and we should be testing them next year.


No one is disputing that you gain power going from 8:5:1 to 9.7:1. We are just stating that there is a limit to raising the compression ratio that beyond which it no longer produces more power on the current rotary. It seems to be in the 9.7:1 to 10.0:1 range.

The horse power on a N/A set up with 13:1 rotors, has to be incredible and we will try it.

This is what we were responding to.

What compression ratio did Mazda's own NA racing engines use? They did have special light weight cast rotors since the 13G at least which came in CRs of 7.5:1, 8.3:1 and 9.4:1 rotors from what I have seen.

eastcoastparts

iTrader: (1)

I have heard the same and i guess that i can agree. I have talk to carlos lopez, kilo and other engine builder out there and they all tell me the same. But, the option are very limited. What we are doing to get more answers is; building a set of aluminum rotor with the highest compression that we can get as long as we have a chamber. (same chamber that we have now) Check the HP and torque at the highest level of compression and work our way down to 10:1. We will have to re-machine the same rotors a few time and this way we will know for sure what happen when the compression goes up on a rotary. Once we have this information we will be testing some new chamber that we have. We believe that the reason that the rotaries might loose power with high compression is the chamber configurations. We hope to have some time in the middle of next year for this test. Later this month we will be testing 10:1 compression billet rotors vs 8.5:1 billet rotors. This will give us some ideas.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Yes, that is awsome that you can start with high CR and work your way down to where it starts to gain or lose power all on the same rotors.

I look forward to seeing some dyno graphs of engines with these rotors and hope you can prove "common knowledge" wrong on both the areas of best compression ratio and aluminum too soft for apex seal slots.

I acknowledge the fact that Mazda did not create perfect engines, but just the best they could within cost constraints.

Double_J

iTrader: (28)

Is it safe to assume that most of the power gains are coming from the fact the rotors weigh less compared to stock? If i didn't spend a fortune this year on my car I would love to try these out!

sonick117x

Woooo finally done reading all 21 pages! I can't believe the progress that you guys have made! Absolutely revolutionary.. no pun intended. I can't wait til these are more commonly available. You guys deserve so much credit for your innovation... CONGRATULATIONS

K!NCH

iTrader: (2)

So are these race only parts or street/daily use too? Also what about mpg?

n0ferz

iTrader: (4)

They are doing tests as well on daily driven cars!

Judge Ito

I personally don't like ligther rotors.. I have been watching a few cars using these rotors and i have seen a significant amount of torque being lost due to rotors being ligther. in the world of drag racing, ligther is not better.

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

That could be fixed with a heavier flywheel if that's what you're after

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

somewere back in these 21 PAGES he Stated that these rotors would provide Great Benefits for all types of applications, With the EXCEPTION OF DRAG.

Obviously they're not marketing them to the drag market, but it's odd the frist testing they did was in a drag car( a 2 rotor 800rwhp+) nonetheless!

i'm looking forward to renesis port-cut(no overlap) 20b's with 13 to 1 compression and 5 pound rotors. 500-600 na hp at 10k rpm or more. Makes my horny.

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

I think the point of that test was to just show that the seal can stay in there even with a good amount of boost, and not really the fact of how quick can the car go.

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

Judge, I know you've done alot of drag racing, but what about circuit racing?

I'd really like to see comparison with the same block just different rotors in there on a track and watch the acceleration graphs.