New Rotor technology
12-29-08, 10:13 AM
#303
Running the billet rotors at the orlando import event
At the orlando speed world event in December. Our datsun was able to run 5 passes. We were able to finish in third place. This car was being run at 26 psi of boost with a turbo 2, street port set up. If you would like to check our the videos from the event. Here is a link;
http://www.youtube.com/user/enjauto
http://www.youtube.com/user/enjauto
12-30-08, 09:45 PM
#305
That is a good question, why? Please let us know the answer when you find it.
All i can tell you is that we did it. We were the first to put this Billet rotor in an engine and got them to work after all of the negativity of the rotors being to soft or melting and so on. May this is your answer, no drive to make new things. some time people think to much on the maybe's. About the million of dollars and the 30 years, whats new? The rotor have not chage, the plates have not change, the seals have not change, only size. We are making the changes with all of our parts. Starting with our throttle bodies, then our water pumps, our ALS seals and now our rotors. This did not take millions of dollars only desire and love for the sport. Our goal is to come with new parts that will me this incredible engine an increase on performance and more life and this is what we do.
Thank you
Edgar Perez
Presidet
E&J Autoworks
All i can tell you is that we did it. We were the first to put this Billet rotor in an engine and got them to work after all of the negativity of the rotors being to soft or melting and so on. May this is your answer, no drive to make new things. some time people think to much on the maybe's. About the million of dollars and the 30 years, whats new? The rotor have not chage, the plates have not change, the seals have not change, only size. We are making the changes with all of our parts. Starting with our throttle bodies, then our water pumps, our ALS seals and now our rotors. This did not take millions of dollars only desire and love for the sport. Our goal is to come with new parts that will me this incredible engine an increase on performance and more life and this is what we do.
Thank you
Edgar Perez
Presidet
E&J Autoworks
Everyone ask why hasn't Mazda done this? I feel they actually have but I can't prove it. If they did, I think the main reason they ditched the idea was for longevity reasons. In the beginning it was imperative that Mazda build these new rotary engines to be reliable and consumer friendly. Mazda could not afford to build an engine that MAY only last a few thousand miles. It took them years and years to get the apex seals right. 40 yrs later the apex seals are still a work in progress however, the rotors they developed have stood the test of time. Mazda like any other manufacturer think the same way. IF IT AINT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!
On the 1st page of this thread someone made the comment about the potential wear of the seal grooves. I think that may have been one of Mazda's concerns. Running an engine for short periods at high output (Which isn't something Mazda R&D the rotary for back in the day) isn't nearly the same as running an engine with carbon building gasoline and varying temperature changes in a consumer market for thousands and thousands of miles. Mazda better than anyone of us knows what kind of conditions we put these engines through. In a consumer world these billet rotors would have to easily survive 100,000 miles or longer to be even considered for production use.
To the person running his rotary in the 24hrs race. Edgar, please make it possible for him to get a set. A ton of longevity & reliability concerns can be either confirmed or denied after this one event. R&D can either happen really fast or really really slow. It's your choice because you have the product and you are in the drivers seat.
Last edited by t-von; 12-30-08 at 09:48 PM.
12-30-08, 10:07 PM
#306
We all appreciate the effort you guys are putting in this. I too am trying to find ways to help with the R&D of rotary's. I've been saying this for years, there's not nearly enough R&D going on at Mazda. Really how could it? They are only one company. They need our help and as many other resources as possible to further help the R&D of rotary engines.
Everyone ask why hasn't Mazda done this? I feel they actually have but I can't prove it. If they did, I think the main reason they ditched the idea was for longevity reasons. In the beginning it was imperative that Mazda build these new rotary engines to be reliable and consumer friendly. Mazda could not afford to build an engine that MAY only last a few thousand miles. It took them years and years to get the apex seals right. 40 yrs later the apex seals are still a work in progress however, the rotors they developed have stood the test of time. Mazda like any other manufacturer think the same way. IF IT AINT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!
On the 1st page of this thread someone made the comment about the potential wear of the seal grooves. I think that may have been one of Mazda's concerns. Running an engine for short periods at high output (Which isn't something Mazda R&D the rotary for back in the day) isn't nearly the same as running an engine with carbon building gasoline and varying temperature changes in a consumer market for thousands and thousands of miles. Mazda better than anyone of us knows what kind of conditions we put these engines through. In a consumer world these billet rotors would have to easily survive 100,000 miles or longer to be even considered for production use.
To the person running his rotary in the 24hrs race. Edgar, please make it possible for him to get a set. A ton of longevity & reliability concerns can be either confirmed or denied after this one event. R&D can either happen really fast or really really slow. It's your choice because you have the product and you are in the drivers seat.
Everyone ask why hasn't Mazda done this? I feel they actually have but I can't prove it. If they did, I think the main reason they ditched the idea was for longevity reasons. In the beginning it was imperative that Mazda build these new rotary engines to be reliable and consumer friendly. Mazda could not afford to build an engine that MAY only last a few thousand miles. It took them years and years to get the apex seals right. 40 yrs later the apex seals are still a work in progress however, the rotors they developed have stood the test of time. Mazda like any other manufacturer think the same way. IF IT AINT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!
On the 1st page of this thread someone made the comment about the potential wear of the seal grooves. I think that may have been one of Mazda's concerns. Running an engine for short periods at high output (Which isn't something Mazda R&D the rotary for back in the day) isn't nearly the same as running an engine with carbon building gasoline and varying temperature changes in a consumer market for thousands and thousands of miles. Mazda better than anyone of us knows what kind of conditions we put these engines through. In a consumer world these billet rotors would have to easily survive 100,000 miles or longer to be even considered for production use.
To the person running his rotary in the 24hrs race. Edgar, please make it possible for him to get a set. A ton of longevity & reliability concerns can be either confirmed or denied after this one event. R&D can either happen really fast or really really slow. It's your choice because you have the product and you are in the drivers seat.
Nice spiff for your friend.
12-31-08, 04:32 AM
#312
I believe Curtis Wright was using steel apex seals in the IRC-6 when it found excessive wear on the aluminum rotors in 1959 due to bell mouthing of the seal groove. Their program to develop a steel rotor tip insert for the aluminum rotor led to the development of the oil jet cooled I beam rotor that we know today.
NSU was using carbon seals in the aluminum rotor KKM-250 (though they tested hundreds of materials in single and multipiece seals) and later switched to steel for production engines.
Mazda's early aluminum rotor prototypes used steel seals initially and switched to carbon/aluminum seals for early production engines.
All the Wankel patent license holders were contractually required to participate in the Wankel consortium in which all technical advancements were freely shared.
NSU, Curtis Wright, Mazda, Mercedes, Citroen, OMP (Evenrude/Johnson), Suzuki, Norton and Fitchel&Sachs and more were trying to develop production rotaries in the 60s.
A couple of example of '60's developments that we think of as cutting edge today, Mercedes pioneered the ceramic apex seal and semi direct injection (exactly like new 16X) and Curtiswright came up with tungsten carbide (cermet) rotor housing lining and center support bearings in intermediate plate.
NSU was using carbon seals in the aluminum rotor KKM-250 (though they tested hundreds of materials in single and multipiece seals) and later switched to steel for production engines.
Mazda's early aluminum rotor prototypes used steel seals initially and switched to carbon/aluminum seals for early production engines.
All the Wankel patent license holders were contractually required to participate in the Wankel consortium in which all technical advancements were freely shared.
NSU, Curtis Wright, Mazda, Mercedes, Citroen, OMP (Evenrude/Johnson), Suzuki, Norton and Fitchel&Sachs and more were trying to develop production rotaries in the 60s.
A couple of example of '60's developments that we think of as cutting edge today, Mercedes pioneered the ceramic apex seal and semi direct injection (exactly like new 16X) and Curtiswright came up with tungsten carbide (cermet) rotor housing lining and center support bearings in intermediate plate.
01-04-09, 03:09 AM
#316
no offence ... but i don't think all that much testion was done on them yet to make it out into production ... I'm just saying this to help this company out ... because as i believe we all would know as soon as anything happens (at the expense of a customer that is) this could all fold in ...
01-04-09, 07:37 AM
#317
no offence ... but i don't think all that much testion was done on them yet to make it out into production ... I'm just saying this to help this company out ... because as i believe we all would know as soon as anything happens (at the expense of a customer that is) this could all fold in ...
If these guys feel confident in there product who are you to say that they aren't? If Y O U feel that way about these rotors then just don't purchase any of them (yet).....
-J
01-04-09, 09:37 AM
#320
no offence ... but i don't think all that much testion was done on them yet to make it out into production ... I'm just saying this to help this company out ... because as i believe we all would know as soon as anything happens (at the expense of a customer that is) this could all fold in ...
If you ask me, these guys are doing something very interesting and taking a smart course by starting with drag and working "down" through racing applications.
01-04-09, 10:33 AM
#321
Will work for horsepower
How many sets of high tec pistons get burned up ever year due to bad tuneing so alot is going to depend on the buyers.
And im sure eastcoast will help all they can to protect there customers!
And im sure eastcoast will help all they can to protect there customers!
01-04-09, 10:52 AM
#322
sorry i wrote that comment pretty late last night and came out kinda wrong. Out of curiousity, how many hours in total was done on the engine? I would personally like to see how the rotors look like after all this incar testing.
Now on the other hand, the faster we sell them around the more testing can be done through different people. I've got a hunch that mr Crispeed might be getting some to play with, wonder if Jesus would do the jump too.
Now on the other hand, the faster we sell them around the more testing can be done through different people. I've got a hunch that mr Crispeed might be getting some to play with, wonder if Jesus would do the jump too.
01-06-09, 01:24 PM
#325
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNK6q...hlight=4+rotor
its right about the 4:10 mark
