Just wondering who out there are using Water or Meth Injection. If you don't mind answering a few basic questions, that would be nice.

What brand?

Boost triggered or rpm as well?

Where did you mount the nozzles?

What size nozzles?

What boost do you turn it on?

Anything to watch out for?

Do you feel it coming online?

Lastly, did you notice a difference in EGTs?

Thanks,

Anthony

 

this is sort of like well i have never run methanol but i did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night....

i did a lot of research last winter on the subject of Auxiliary Injection (AI) and came to a solid conclusion that for me 100% methanol was just what i needed.

if you are able to invest some time on the subject i suggest you go to Turbobuick.com and read the entire 60 plus pages of threads in the "Alcohol, nitrous and propane tech" section starting w page 1. it traces in real time the evolution of AI starting w water and progressing on to where it is today. it is probably the single best AI resource that exists... and yes, there are links to various other reads on the subject.

it will answer all the questions you might have... what to run, how to tune, what to expect and whom to deal with.

i have just finished installing all the components of my Alkycontrol system. i have a 4 gallon Jaz fuel cell located in the spare wheel well as far back and to the pass side. my pump is located underneath the car just in front of the half shaft drivers side protected by the black plastic undertray. it's the perfect fd location. 2 of the 3 modules of my progressive controller are located next to my battery behind the passenger seat in the package compartment. my controller sits on the bezel between the steering wheel and the dash. the J&S knock retard gauge sits next to it. dual nozzles locate in the elbow as per specific advice from Julio. all lines braided SS w brass fittings for methanol.

IMO it is extremely important to deal w the right vendor. most systems really aren't set up to run 100% methanol without degradation or malfunction. since you "tune up" w methanol it is essential that there be NO failures in the system, such as blowing a fuse on your pump etc.

i have enough developmental stuff on my car so i took the postion that i did not want to ride any learning curves as far as alcohol... there alot of new web cos out there. i do wish them luck but i don't want to "evolve" with them.

Alkycontrol (Julio Don) has over 1300 alcohol systems in customer hands. i like to work w racers. Julio is out flogging his Pontiac Turbo TransAm just about every weekend. his 232 cu in ( 3.8 liter) V6 stock bottom end 3870 pound car runs 10.5 at 132 mph on pump gas and his methanol system.

232 cu in 3870 pounds 132 mph... pump gas. enough said.

i wanted plug n play. i have it.

as to alcohol deployment:

it reads off the GM 3 bar map sensor and is fully adjustable. yes, you can tee into the one you might already be running. there are a bunch of new progressive controllers on the market. my vendor has been selling his for over 5 years and he is an electrical engineer.

there are certain things re the controller and the pump that really need to be right....

nozzle placement:
he recommends the nozzles be placed in the elbow so they will have time to "flash." i was thinking the LIM but he said the alcohol would work better a bit upstream. he's the doctor.

as to tuning... if you don't change either timing or boost you will make less hp. the whole deal is you can advance the timing, prob about 3-4 degrees, and boost. most of the buick guys use knock readings to tune.

as you probably know alcohol drag cars often don't even use intercoolers. the alcohol does the job. my friend Jose Leduc runs his 700 plus hp 2 rotor RX3 w no intercooler at boost levels that i can't disclose at the end of the run his UIM is so cold you don't want to put your hand on it.

expect lower egts around 100 to 200 degrees when properly tuned.

i should fire up my car in a couple of weeks and will share what i learn. i think methanol was made for our cars.

i highly recommend you check out the turbobuick alcohol section. any tech questions i call Julio Don 727 526 9724. florida. he is always happy to talk shop. BTW, he goes by the name of Razor on the buick site...

good luck,

howard coleman

 

bravo, howard coleman, I always enjoy reading your well presented and thought out posts. I knew there was a reason I still browse this site like a bad habit.

AnthonyNYC - to answer your questions, I'll give some info about my water only system

What brand?

DIY, 100psi Shurflo pump w/ accumulator tank (holds 100psi of water pressure at the solenoid for ZERO lag time building/injecting high pressure water), 4.9 gph nozzle.

Boost triggered or rpm as well?

boost only

Where did you mount the nozzles?

cold side of IC pipe, just before the stock elbow (not aluminum so it won't absorb the cooling effects)

What size nozzles?

single 4.9gph, however, I feel this is small for the amount of boost I run; 17psi and I see ~80% duty cycle w/ 550/1680 fuel injectors. I'm only injecting about 8-9% water.

What boost do you turn it on?

15psi, just before max boost.

Anything to watch out for?

system won't turn on in a failure mode. even better would be...your system won't fail if you tune for it. I use it only as a safety blanket...my car runs faster without it, but still won't blow up without it.

Do you feel it coming online?

nope

Lastly, did you notice a difference in EGTs?

haven't installed my EGT probe, but on the same tune as without water, I'd have to say its a sure bet they are lower.


future plans for my system, install the EGT, and a flow meter (http://www.snowperformance.net/prodd...p?prod=SI%2D10), and run a meth/water mixture, and tune a little more aggressive...less fuel, and more timing. Currently running 10.9 A:F with 17 deg. advance.

 

Thanks guys for the detailed responses.

Anthony

 

Anthony,

I'm running 50:50 water:methanol

What brand?
Coolingmist

Boost triggered or rpm as well?
only by boost. One comes in at 4psi, the other at 10psi

Where did you mount the nozzles?
Greddy elbow and cold side of intercooler

What size nozzles?
don't remember but low flow one at the elbow higher one at the intercooler. However, during a tuning session with Steve Kan, the car would "bog" when the second one came online. Also he saw the AFR increase by 1 point. I am currently switching the second nozzle to a 1.3gph one....I'm not running big boost. 1bar on 99spec twins

What boost do you turn it on?
see above

Anything to watch out for?
I realized during the last autocross that you have little time to look or find out if you have your WI on or off, or if you know it failed. I accidently hit the on off switch and turned it off and never knew it!!! If your tuning for it, listen to howard and invest in a good system that has TONS of fail safes. I'm just running it for safety.

Also, if you plan to run methanol you can't use an aluminum tank as it will create a reaction and make salts.

On that note, when I took off my intercooler I noticed that down stream of the second injector at the coupler, I must have gotten some pooling of water/methanol as it looks to have some salts there...I haven't pulled the elbow off to look there

Do you feel it coming online?
no, but my car is noticably SLOWER with it on. During the tune, we did a back to back run with it on and off and both Steve and I noticed it was slower. I hope this will be better with the lower gph nozzle.

Lastly, did you notice a difference in EGTs?
Didn't have an EGT but Goodfellas noticed a 100 degree drop.

 

My system consists of a ShurFlo 150 psi pump and 700ml accumulator, 3/8 inch 300psi rubber hoses (until the shutoff solenoid) , two solenoids , one of which is for my IC sprayer , which also runs of the WI system . AQUAMIST , monitoring system (DDS3 , senses reservoir level and actual flow it has settable upper and lower flow limits which "trip" a pair of outputs that can be incorporated into your system for the ULTIMATE safety ) , their water injector (HSV) and one 1.0mm nozzle (for nowmaybe) . The actual control of the injector and the solenoid is handeled bu my ECU via a programable PWM output and a on / off output for the solenoid . the WI system is set to come on at about 10 psi up and I've seen up to 300 deg less on my last motors exhaust, and I have the jet located on the outlet pipe of my FMIC about 3 feet from my TB.
Take a look at this kit , its a bit more expensive , but its GREAT !!! , http://www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection/

 

I found a easey way to inject a H20/alki mix. Back in the 1950 to 1970 range. ( pre efi black box stuff ) From what i read, they used to tap into boost pressure to power the system. The basic idea is this: Tap into the boosted side of the intake with a hose and run this into a tank holding your H20 mix, then use a second hose from the H20 tank, and using a misting nozzle to spray the H20 mix into the inlet of the turbo. More boost=more H20!!
It's a self metiring system! I love old school!! Lots of outher parts im not geting into here to make it work. I will do a write up on it soon in great detail.
I plan on doing this with my 1979 RX-7!

 

^inject H2O at 1-10psi...will that atomize before blasting your compressor blades??

 

It takes fancy nozzles to create a very fine mist at low pressures. This is the system that Rice Racing used to use/sell. He had a check valve in there so it would at least wait until 2-3 PSI before it kicked in. I believe it's also the same system that the older Saab turbos were factory equipped with. I love the simplicity of the system but sourcing a nozzle that flows enough and mists enough at those low pressures seems difficult. I spent a bit of time loking for low pressure mist nozzles. Rice's nozzles were a modified/custom unit and from what I could find, they didn't seem to wear excessively.

There is also a school of thought that says pre-turbo WI increases the effeciency of the turbo significantly, be it high or low pressure system.

 

OK here is a taste of what i plan on doing. This is a rughf draft at best, but it should awnser your question, Keep in mind this is a cut and paste hack job from a pm!
As for the H20 set up, yes you can make a switch if you like. If you have some kind of " smart box " that has a nitrus controller, use this to controll a solinoid valve for the H20 rather than nitrus, or use a relay for both at the same time.
Or use a presure sensing switch + solinoid valve (cooling mist has these for $20.00 or so) to turn it on at a set boost levil.
Or run a solinoid valve with a throttel swtich (micro switch + relay)
Or find a spring type pressure sensing valve (adjustable saftey valve) it works just like a radiator cap or blow off valve, to much pressure and it will vent. just direct this flow into your H20 tank. ( this will be my choice )
Put one of these controlls on the outlet side of the tank so it gives a quick strong shot of H2O. ( tank dose not have to build up pressure first )

OH and a high flow oneway valve close to the turbo is manditory! keeps the tank pressurised and prevents back flow when your noot boosting. (cooling mist has these to)

To disable the system you could use a master switch (cut power to everything in the system) and manual valve's or somthing on the tank inlet/outlet. like the metal ones used for an air pump on a fish tank. (they make all sizes big and small)

Or an old water spiget mounted in the dashboard! I can hear them now, WTF IS THAT?!! LOL

It would be a good idea to use a valve so you can vent the pressure in the tank when you park it, just to be safe!! It would sound really cool to! (i wonder how many pepole would think you just blew a tire or somthing was wrong with your car! LOL) Just use a push button switch with a solinoid valve, PSSSssssst

Yeah, im a cheap bastard to! i find some of best things are the ones you make yourself.


I dont think the cooling mist injectors will work with this setup. They use 100 to 150 psi to atomize properly. If you run 10lb boost that should equal 10psi right?? Not to shure about that tho, never reaserched boost lb to psi diffrence's.
All the info on this setup said to use a plant mister nozzle, hand pump style (METAL ONE), they like 5 to 20 psi. and aim it at the center shaft of the turbo blade's ( intake side ) 1 or 2 inches away. some guy's even ran a solid stream into the turbo blade's to atomize it, but had problems with pitting the turbo blades. Witch tells me they had metal chunks pumping thru the engine. OUCH!!!!

 

I plan on trying an air brush as my injector nozzle, I will make a seprate"dry" line from the boosted side of the intake with a check valve set at a slightly lower psi than the H20 line. Air first then H20.

 

"There is also a school of thought that says pre-turbo WI increases the effeciency of the turbo significantly, be it high or low pressure system."

Yeah the heat is created at the blades! Not the intake.

Glad to see someone else has looked into this to!

 

Aquamist 2d but installed as a 1s.

Boost only. If I purchase an additonal component I can have the water inj increase with fuel inj duty cycle.

Single nozzle, Greddy elbow.

0.9 mm, the largest supplied with the kit.

9 psi. Basically an arbitrary # I picked .

I have nothing to add here after all the excellent posts above.

No, it is transparent to me.

Yes, peak EGTs dropped by approx 100 degrees F.

Also, I am injecting windshield washer fluid, which seems to be an inexpensive way to get water and methanol.

Here is the link to my install thread:

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=aquamist

 

Stellar, Howard. I am right behind you. I'll have mine done in a couple of weeks and hopefully it will be a kit that cacn be replicated on many other FC's. I feel so good about all of this. Infact, I haven't felt this good about something car-related since I installed the Haltech E6K on my car over 6 years ago. This will change the standard for pump gas and power on our RE's, my friend.

Stay tuned for more in the coming months.

B

 

wow B not even as excited as half bridge ports?

I have a Aquamist system that have been threating to install for the past 3 years or so.

when you comming out here B I wanna build a monster.

 

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ohol+injection


Some good info in this thread. As long as you ignore Iceblue's formulas lol.