Strengthening an Apex Seal: Please Read
01-18-02 | 06:39 AM
#1
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Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
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From: Stinson Beach, Ca
Strengthening an Apex Seal: Please Read
Would shotpeening or cryo freezing help at all, maybe save you from that "one time" when they would normally go from a mis-shift
Shotpeening - soul assasin has them on mazda 2mm 3piece seals, says "it makes it alot stonger i have ran 1.8 bar numerous times on accident of course with no problems."
CryoFreezing - They're doing it to "cross drilled" brake rotors to keep them from "cracking" like they do sometimes when not forged with the cross drilled holes.
They were also talking about cryofreezing other rotary engine parts, but I don't know if anything has been done yet.
Here is the thread in which it was talked about. https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=43725
Anyone have anything to add on to this?
Like how do you shotpeen. I've heard of a ball peen hammer, but was confused at first. Searched and thought this might help.
I grabbed that from http://www.shotpeener.com/learning/spo.pdf and had to retype it myself because its a PDF (!$@!@$)
And for CryoFreezing, here is the quote that badass7 so well explained it.
Has anyone else heard of people shotpeening or cryotreating their apex seals to strengthen them so they can get that one accident more out of them. Or possibly treating them so that they coould take higher boost etc etc.
Also anyone have any other experience with these two methods or any other methods of strengthening metals/materials in any other fields?
Possibly a combination of the two would help even more. Shotpeen then Cryogenically Treat the seal, or maybe the cryo treatment would somewhat cancel out the stotpeenings benefits, and just provide its own instead of a combined effect.
Anyways I'm going to end this now, and please any information you have to share and contribute on the two methods would be great. Maybe we can help a few people from their engine blowing.
Thanks,
Ben Martin
Shotpeening - soul assasin has them on mazda 2mm 3piece seals, says "it makes it alot stonger i have ran 1.8 bar numerous times on accident of course with no problems."
CryoFreezing - They're doing it to "cross drilled" brake rotors to keep them from "cracking" like they do sometimes when not forged with the cross drilled holes.
They were also talking about cryofreezing other rotary engine parts, but I don't know if anything has been done yet.
Here is the thread in which it was talked about. https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=43725
Anyone have anything to add on to this?
Like how do you shotpeen. I've heard of a ball peen hammer, but was confused at first. Searched and thought this might help.
Shot peening is a cold working process in which the surgace of a part is bombarded with small spherical media called shot. Each piece of shot striking the material acts as a tiny peening hammer, imparting to the surgace a small indentation dimple. In order for the dimple to be created, the surface fibers of the material must be yielded in tension. Below the surface, the fibers try to restore the surface to its original shape, thereby producing below the dimple, a hemisphere of cold-worked material highly streesed in compression. Overlapping dimples develop an even layer of metal in residual compressive stress. It is well know that cracks will not initiate or popagate in a compressively stressed zone. Since nearly all fatigue and stress corrosion failures originate at the surface of a part, compressive stresses induced by shot peening provide considerable increases in part life. The maximum compressive residual stress produced at or under the surface of a part by shot peening is at least as great as half the yield strength of the material being peened. Many materials will also increase in surface harndess due to the cold-working effect of shot peening.
Benefits obtained by shot peening are the result of the compressive stress and the cold working induced. Compressive stresses are beneficial in increasing resistance to fatigue failures, corrosion fatigue, stress by corrosion cracking, hydrogen assisted cracking, fretting, falling and erosion caused by cavitation. Benefits obtained due to cold working include work hardening, intergranular corrosion resistance, surface texturing, closing of porosity and testing the bond of coatings. Both compressive stresses and cold-worked effects are used in the application of shot peening in forming metal parts.
Benefits obtained by shot peening are the result of the compressive stress and the cold working induced. Compressive stresses are beneficial in increasing resistance to fatigue failures, corrosion fatigue, stress by corrosion cracking, hydrogen assisted cracking, fretting, falling and erosion caused by cavitation. Benefits obtained due to cold working include work hardening, intergranular corrosion resistance, surface texturing, closing of porosity and testing the bond of coatings. Both compressive stresses and cold-worked effects are used in the application of shot peening in forming metal parts.
And for CryoFreezing, here is the quote that badass7 so well explained it.
Originally posted by badass7
Just curious, Cryogenic Treatment of metal sounds like a great idea. I know many racing teams use this treatment on their engines and other parts. Why/Has anyone attempted to do this to the internals of a Rotary engine??
When metal is initially formed at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature the atoms & molecules are disorganized and there are weak particles in the metal called Austenite, these are actually large unstable particles of carbon.
What cryogenic processing does is to convert these weak and unstable carbon particles into Martensite, which are very strong and stable carbide particles. This transformation takes place the same way that regular carbon (which is soft and weak) is converted into diamonds… which is the hardest most durable material know to man – IT TAKES VERY EXTREME PRESSURE! Diamonds are pure carbon, however they have perfectly aligned carbon atoms!
In Cryogenic Processing the EXTREME PRESSURE comes from the physics of freezing to –300 degrees and the resultant contracting of the metal. This contraction, which would also happen under extreme pressure, forces the atoms & molecules to align and fit together tightly.
Once the metal warms back up to atmospheric temperature and pressure the molecules return to their normal spacing however now they are now highly organized, forming one virtually continuous strength piece of metal without the stress spots and weak particles that were in the metal prior to Cryogenic Processing.
Under a microscope you can actually see that the surface of the metal has become much smoother. This smoothing greatly reduces friction (which greatly reduces heat) and increases the resistance to wear of the metal up to 500%.
Cryogenic Processing works for all kinds of metal or metal alloys and some plastics such as nylon.
Motorsports racing enthusiast have their engines, drivetrains, & suspension parts Cryo’d to increase strength by up to 50% and can double the life of engine & drivetrain parts that are subject to wear.
Cryogenic processing is a one-time process that lasts for the life of the item.
Cryo’d metals can be machined or sharpened as much as you like and will retain all the improved properties throughout their life.
You should expect at least twice the life for all Cryo’d metal items that wear!
POSITIVE RESULTS FOR INCREASED STRENGTH AND LIFE
ARE GUARANTEED OR YOUR MONEY BACK !!!!!
Just curious, Cryogenic Treatment of metal sounds like a great idea. I know many racing teams use this treatment on their engines and other parts. Why/Has anyone attempted to do this to the internals of a Rotary engine??
When metal is initially formed at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature the atoms & molecules are disorganized and there are weak particles in the metal called Austenite, these are actually large unstable particles of carbon.
What cryogenic processing does is to convert these weak and unstable carbon particles into Martensite, which are very strong and stable carbide particles. This transformation takes place the same way that regular carbon (which is soft and weak) is converted into diamonds… which is the hardest most durable material know to man – IT TAKES VERY EXTREME PRESSURE! Diamonds are pure carbon, however they have perfectly aligned carbon atoms!
In Cryogenic Processing the EXTREME PRESSURE comes from the physics of freezing to –300 degrees and the resultant contracting of the metal. This contraction, which would also happen under extreme pressure, forces the atoms & molecules to align and fit together tightly.
Once the metal warms back up to atmospheric temperature and pressure the molecules return to their normal spacing however now they are now highly organized, forming one virtually continuous strength piece of metal without the stress spots and weak particles that were in the metal prior to Cryogenic Processing.
Under a microscope you can actually see that the surface of the metal has become much smoother. This smoothing greatly reduces friction (which greatly reduces heat) and increases the resistance to wear of the metal up to 500%.
Cryogenic Processing works for all kinds of metal or metal alloys and some plastics such as nylon.
Motorsports racing enthusiast have their engines, drivetrains, & suspension parts Cryo’d to increase strength by up to 50% and can double the life of engine & drivetrain parts that are subject to wear.
Cryogenic processing is a one-time process that lasts for the life of the item.
Cryo’d metals can be machined or sharpened as much as you like and will retain all the improved properties throughout their life.
You should expect at least twice the life for all Cryo’d metal items that wear!
POSITIVE RESULTS FOR INCREASED STRENGTH AND LIFE
ARE GUARANTEED OR YOUR MONEY BACK !!!!!
Has anyone else heard of people shotpeening or cryotreating their apex seals to strengthen them so they can get that one accident more out of them. Or possibly treating them so that they coould take higher boost etc etc.
Also anyone have any other experience with these two methods or any other methods of strengthening metals/materials in any other fields?
Possibly a combination of the two would help even more. Shotpeen then Cryogenically Treat the seal, or maybe the cryo treatment would somewhat cancel out the stotpeenings benefits, and just provide its own instead of a combined effect.
Anyways I'm going to end this now, and please any information you have to share and contribute on the two methods would be great. Maybe we can help a few people from their engine blowing.
Thanks,
Ben Martin
01-18-02 | 07:10 AM
#2
Meesto Spakaro
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 489
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From: Redondo Beach, CA
re: crotreating
the internals of the engine currently expand and contract at the same rate to provide optimum sealing. (thats why it's best to warm up and cool down the engine properly after driving)
By only treating the apex seals, you will be ruining this consistency since the apex seals expansion rate will differ from the rest of the engine...it would take a lot longer to warm the car up so it would seal correctly-- it would be too much of a hassle and uneconomical for a daily driven car. The only alternative would be to cryo everything
the internals of the engine currently expand and contract at the same rate to provide optimum sealing. (thats why it's best to warm up and cool down the engine properly after driving)
By only treating the apex seals, you will be ruining this consistency since the apex seals expansion rate will differ from the rest of the engine...it would take a lot longer to warm the car up so it would seal correctly-- it would be too much of a hassle and uneconomical for a daily driven car. The only alternative would be to cryo everything
01-18-02 | 12:54 PM
#6
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Massachusetts
What's the reason to strengthening the apex seal? So the motor won't pop right? Now what causes the motor to pop? DETONATION! One way to not blow your engine is to avoid detonation. Say you treated your seals and it's a LOT stronger. You drive hard and your motor detonates, the apex seals doesn't break because of the nice treament you gave it but you know what will? The next internal component of the engine, your end plate. I would just skip all of the seals treatment BS and tune the car right. No flame intended.
Tony S.
Tony S.
01-18-02 | 12:55 PM
#7
Old [Sch|F]ool
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,637
Likes: 466
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Shotpeening is like sandblasting but with much bigger media. Basically it hardens/densifies the metal at the surface, which is the most important part because cracks start at the surface.
Shotpeening is very popular for connecting rods for this reason... you polish and shotpeen them so they have no surface irregularities (which start cracks) and the surface is hardened.
I doubt the benefits of shotpeening apex seals, given that they're already hardened from the factory. Cryo treating is something that half of the industry believes in and the other half believes is snake oil. The believers say it works because it takes heat treatment one step further, heat treating is heating something and then cooling it in a certain way, cyro treating is cooling it even further and then bringing it back up to normal in a certain way. Same theories, different direction.
Shotpeening is very popular for connecting rods for this reason... you polish and shotpeen them so they have no surface irregularities (which start cracks) and the surface is hardened.
I doubt the benefits of shotpeening apex seals, given that they're already hardened from the factory. Cryo treating is something that half of the industry believes in and the other half believes is snake oil. The believers say it works because it takes heat treatment one step further, heat treating is heating something and then cooling it in a certain way, cyro treating is cooling it even further and then bringing it back up to normal in a certain way. Same theories, different direction.
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01-18-02 | 07:41 PM
#8
inteligent extratarestril
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
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From: The Sunny B.O.P, New Zealand
Originally posted by Bucrx7
What's the reason to strengthening the apex seal? So the motor won't pop right? Now what causes the motor to pop? DETONATION! One way to not blow your engine is to avoid detonation. Say you treated your seals and it's a LOT stronger. You drive hard and your motor detonates, the apex seals doesn't break because of the nice treament you gave it but you know what will? The next internal component of the engine, your end plate. I would just skip all of the seals treatment BS and tune the car right. No flame intended.
Tony S.
What's the reason to strengthening the apex seal? So the motor won't pop right? Now what causes the motor to pop? DETONATION! One way to not blow your engine is to avoid detonation. Say you treated your seals and it's a LOT stronger. You drive hard and your motor detonates, the apex seals doesn't break because of the nice treament you gave it but you know what will? The next internal component of the engine, your end plate. I would just skip all of the seals treatment BS and tune the car right. No flame intended.
Tony S.
01-18-02 | 11:23 PM
#9
Passenger
Posts: n/a
a product of tuning sometimes is detonation. For those of us that have to do upgrades one at a time this requires alot of tunning. This leaves are larger margen for slite mistakes that we are all capable of. Inturn The end result is detonation. I think a stronger apex seal is a fix for a problem that plaegues most of us.
I real like the idea of a epex seal shatering before it is able to do damage.
I real like the idea of a epex seal shatering before it is able to do damage.
01-19-02 | 12:19 AM
#10
Thread Starter
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
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From: Stinson Beach, Ca
How about that little bit of protection. I mean not all of us are expert tuners and may do it ourselves. Oh well, serves ya right for not being safe.
Anyways you guys sound to me somewhat like corky bell about water injection. It's not needed at all and is an excuse for improper tuning. And I know quite a few of you (modified turbo RXs) run water injection and think his opinion on that is wrong.
Anyways you guys sound to me somewhat like corky bell about water injection. It's not needed at all and is an excuse for improper tuning. And I know quite a few of you (modified turbo RXs) run water injection and think his opinion on that is wrong.
01-19-02 | 03:26 AM
#11
inteligent extratarestril
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
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From: The Sunny B.O.P, New Zealand
if you shot peen the apex seals 'for that little extra protection' how are you gonna prevent it from possibly cracking the end plate? you gonna shot peen that too? maybe you gonna bore the housings and stick 6 or 8 extra dowels down the spark plug side of the motor????????????
its all band aids, where is RICE RACING when we have a good topic for him?
its all band aids, where is RICE RACING when we have a good topic for him?
Our beer sucks here and so does our gasoline.
01-19-02 | 03:13 PM
#13
GTR eater
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
From: Tucson Arizona
Originally posted by HWO
if you shot peen the apex seals 'for that little extra protection' how are you gonna prevent it from possibly cracking the end plate? you gonna shot peen that too? maybe you gonna bore the housings and stick 6 or 8 extra dowels down the spark plug side of the motor????????????
its all band aids, where is RICE RACING when we have a good topic for him?
if you shot peen the apex seals 'for that little extra protection' how are you gonna prevent it from possibly cracking the end plate? you gonna shot peen that too? maybe you gonna bore the housings and stick 6 or 8 extra dowels down the spark plug side of the motor????????????
its all band aids, where is RICE RACING when we have a good topic for him?
01-19-02 | 03:17 PM
#14
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 170
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From: Winnipeg,Canada
Hmmmm shotpeening an apex seal.about as efective as dropping a big rock on it.cryo treating smooths the surface out, not good, kinda defeats the idea the pores in the seal retaining oil to lube it IF you want to run high boost you should run IANETTI ceramic apex seals mazda motorsport part#0000-01-9113 and circlip your rotor gears.
Last edited by SOLORX7; 01-19-02 at 03:27 PM.
01-19-02 | 03:38 PM
#16
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 170
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From: Winnipeg,Canada
If your trying to run hi boost without that grade of fuel your begging for problems.You don't see any race teams stopping at the local Shell and saying we're on a budget just fill it with mid grade.
01-19-02 | 04:03 PM
#17
GTR eater
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
From: Tucson Arizona
ok i know you ugys have no clue on the jap scene but i am telling you that shootpeening is the way to go all the high horspower 7's do it, it ialmost a standard, as for gas the local jomo and nisseki pumps out 117 octane from the pump so i have no worries about that kind of thing. NO japanese use hurley or inaetti stock mazda seals best seals there are some run 2 poece seals but that about as extreme as the get for apex seals, the main thing is tuning but stock untreated seals only hold so much boost this spring i am tuning for 25 psi
01-19-02 | 04:09 PM
#18
Old [Sch|F]ool
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,637
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From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Well it would be nice to drive more than 100mi away from the nearest place that sells 114/116 octane race fuel, which is not only leaded (aka illegal for use on public roads) but also costs 4-5 times what "premium" pump 91 octane does. And in my case the closest place is 40 miles from here.
So what we gotta do is tune the best we can and then add some INSURANCE against breaking engines apart because Jake the BP man put the 87 octane fuel in the wrong tank at the gas station.
I know you should do this and you should do that but there's really no point in modifying to make a certain amount of power and then hamstringing it 90% of the time by running it at low boost because the fuel sucks. You might as well use nitrous if you want power that you can only access SOMETIMES...
So what we gotta do is tune the best we can and then add some INSURANCE against breaking engines apart because Jake the BP man put the 87 octane fuel in the wrong tank at the gas station.
I know you should do this and you should do that but there's really no point in modifying to make a certain amount of power and then hamstringing it 90% of the time by running it at low boost because the fuel sucks. You might as well use nitrous if you want power that you can only access SOMETIMES...
01-19-02 | 04:35 PM
#20
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Winnipeg,Canada
Are you sure they are shotpening the seals and not the rotor seal area? If your famillar with shotpening it shoots very small steel shot at high speed at the object ,apex seals are brittle and break if you do this,but if you shotpen the rotor seal area it adds some strength to that area.And just so you know the IANETTI seals are not a stock Mazda part,you can order it from Mazda motorsport but they are made by an outside company.TO Quote from the Mazda comp Cataloge "1 piece,3 mm,For high boost applications.Slightly shorter length to compensate for heat expansion.Can handle approximately 24 pounds of boost" SO if Mazda RECOMENDS this seal over their stock seal and they have FAR MORE experience with this than you or I ,who do you think is right?Do the law's of physics change from one side of the world to the other?
Last edited by SOLORX7; 01-19-02 at 04:59 PM.
01-19-02 | 05:15 PM
#21
inteligent extratarestril
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
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From: The Sunny B.O.P, New Zealand
that sounds like a load of bolloux to me, 24PSI is soo un exact its not funny, testing has shown that the stock 2mm seals can handle around 1200HP before breaking from sheer HP/combustion pressure - thats some INSANE HP, breaking apex seals is caused by detonation, saying a certani type of seal is good for 24psi is like saying cheese comes from milk, yes it does but there are many more factors to consider into the equation
01-19-02 | 05:24 PM
#22
GTR eater
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
From: Tucson Arizona
Originally posted by SOLORX7
Are you sure they are shotpening the seals and not the rotor seal area? If your famillar with shotpening it shoots very small steel shot at high speed at the object ,apex seals are brittle and break if you do this,but if you shotpen the rotor seal area it adds some strength to that area.And just so you know the IANETTI seals are not a stock Mazda part,you can order it from Mazda motorsport but they are made by an outside company.TO Quote from the Mazda comp Cataloge "1 piece,3 mm,For high boost applications.Slightly shorter length to compensate for heat expansion.Can handle approximately 24 pounds of boost" SO if Mazda RECOMENDS this seal over their stock seal and they have FAR MORE experience with this than you or I ,who do you think is right?Do the law's of physics change from one side of the world to the other?
Are you sure they are shotpening the seals and not the rotor seal area? If your famillar with shotpening it shoots very small steel shot at high speed at the object ,apex seals are brittle and break if you do this,but if you shotpen the rotor seal area it adds some strength to that area.And just so you know the IANETTI seals are not a stock Mazda part,you can order it from Mazda motorsport but they are made by an outside company.TO Quote from the Mazda comp Cataloge "1 piece,3 mm,For high boost applications.Slightly shorter length to compensate for heat expansion.Can handle approximately 24 pounds of boost" SO if Mazda RECOMENDS this seal over their stock seal and they have FAR MORE experience with this than you or I ,who do you think is right?Do the law's of physics change from one side of the world to the other?
01-19-02 | 06:17 PM
#23
'Tuna'
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 3
From: Miami,Fl,USA
I know a lot of people running 45+ psi with stock seals and having no problems. I also planned on doing so shortly.
The tuning and motor building techniques are what determines what the stock apex seals can handle.
I've tried just about everything made out there and have settled back to using the factory made apex seals.
crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph
.The tuning and motor building techniques are what determines what the stock apex seals can handle.
I've tried just about everything made out there and have settled back to using the factory made apex seals.
crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph