600HP CLUB

on track he runs 19 PSI, runs 10s.

juliof

Yes its suposed to be reliable at 250HP thats yet to be seen, just like the 13brew was suposed to be reliable? The motor might be called the Renesis but its still a 1308cc 80 cu in 2 rotor wankel nothing new there.

mmaragos

I am definitely not going to praise the Renesis, but what are you talking about? They are significantly different. In addition, NA rotary engines are known for very good reliability.

Scalliwag

67% increase in horsepower equates to something new

600HP CLUB

the new 13b is way way better, fuel economy, power, everything is all good, all the bad **** that happen with the non-turbo 2nd had been deleted, plus there wasn't much wrong with the non-turbo 13b, some 13b owners had gone over 200k mark, it's because lack of owner skills in maintinance made the turbo version look bad, but i know for sure all the bad rap will be gone once these new breed of 13b's come out. The redesign 13b is alot different. The only problem with rotaries is carbon build up and once carbon build up happens, it's fucked! say bye bye to apex seals. Most owners who made over 200k mark drive their car's to the limit once in awhile, hitting redline (causing much much heat to melt down the carbon build up), and take care of it well, but people who don't drive normally and have lack of maintaince skills end up getting a blown engine.

hopfully mazda build a way to have auto -steaming- trick
(adding water into a vac line while the engine is running and holding it at 3k, helping wash out the carbon.)

-mike

edit: my friends 13b first gen has almost 250k! non-turbo, he beat it once in awhile, but never late in his maintaince. and we had a first gen with 12a over 250k, try finding a sports car with oringinal engines with high milage?

600HP CLUB

13brew is twin turbo
13b ren isn't (isn't the real code name for it)

the twin turbo was/is in a hot spot where heat cannot escape, and also the downpipe has a cat right next to the turbo, making it hard to cool down since the heat just stuck between the downpipe and the turbo, the radiator wasn't made for full race out but people still over do it causing over heat problems and overheat kills rotaries easy as like snapping a tooth pick

non-turbo cars are by far the realiablist.

KYPREO

I have it on good authority that service intervals for the Renesis have doubled over the FD.

Also, carbon buildup is much less of a problem theoretically, because internal EG recirculation is almost eliminated from the new design (the main reason the intake ports could be made so large). The result is a/f ratios are much more controlled and there can be much more complete burn.

the 13B REW could handle 450hp from the factory, and it came out with 250hp. I'm fairly confident that with all the $$$ invested in the Renesis that the internals will handle the same, provided the engine can be tuned reliably at boost, either by lowering compression, or tuning very conservatively on high compression. Juliof obviously knows nothing about rotary engines.

Flyrx7

iTrader: (1)

Heh. I'm not normally one to rub someones nose in it, but since it's been said, he's just baiting people here for a flame war. I almost bit earlier but thought better of it, but now I just can't resist.
Juliof, if you're so down on the rotary, then why are you here? You might as well go join the F-body forum and go ........, whatever.
Enough said, I'm done. Have a nice day

Frank

KYPREO

good point

Scalliwag

Either he hasn't built any or can't build one or screwed up the ones he has built to have came to the conclusions he has given.
A good builder can build a motor that would be capable of having a lot of healthy years ahead with just basic maintenance if you do not constantly dog the hell out of it.
BDC has "special" water seals he put in a motor in '99 that he pulled apart that look like they could be reused. I wouldn't risk it but it just shows that some areas that have been problematic in the past are being solved.

Mazda took a motor and got a shitload more power out of it and lowered the emmissions significantly at the same time. That may not seem that significant to some people but to me it is a real reason to be jazzed up.
The projected sales on the RX-8 seem to be impressive too. So Mazda's worst kept secret that if the RX-8 succeeds they will release a 4th gen RX-7 is highly probable.

juliof

GeeeeZ stop the BS All I am saying is the Renesis is suposed to be reliable but thats yet too be seen the RX8 is just entering the market? I never said N/A rotaries are not reliable did I, they are the ones I have seen have well over 100K.Again perfect example wasnt the 13BREW considered reliable for sale by Mazda thats not what was delivered even the 2001 Z06 had piston ring problems every manufacture has had there motor problems .So untill the Renesis hits the market full force only time will tell if Mazda got it right this time.

ShadowX

Sport Compact did an article on the RX-8 a while back, and they had a talk with the ehad engineer of the Renesis. One of the last statements he made was the the Ren was designed with boost in mind. Obviously it isn't boosted, but that's probably because Ford was scared of another FD. And as for turbos and high compression, there is now a turbo kit for the new Celicas, which runs 11.5:1 compression.
[note]
I can't find the SCC that talk about boosting the RX-8, so I'd take it with a grain of salt until I can find that issue.

fdracer

i'm starting to have my doubts about the rotary, and the renesis isn't helping any to ease them. i used to consider the the 2 rotor to be comprable to a 6cyl. and the 3 rotor to a v8. but compare the new renesis to the a new v6 like the 350z. the rx8 and 350z are priced about the same, but the 350z makes 290hp vs. the rx8's 250 and has a ton more torque. look how absolutely complex the the intake system on the renesis has to be to eek out every last ounce of hp and torque, you can't tell me that won't have any reliability problems in the future. the 350z makes it's power pretty easily imo, the nissan engineers by no means went all out on the engine, it's still got a log ex. mani., and a basic intake manifold. let's say you turbocharge both of them, even w/ a stock bottom end, i'd put my money that the 3.5l 350z will make more power than the 1.3l renesis. the renesis will also be less suited for turbocharging than the pp exhaust rotaries of the past. the rotary's combustion inefficeincy is what allowed it to spool such large turbos, it's pretty much the same concept as anti-lag. it had really strong exaust pulses, that's why we can run larger turbines than even supras. w/ the renesis' increased efficiency will mean we can't use as big a turbo. the performance disparity is even more apparent in drag racing, where all out performance is the key. the 2 rotor can't even touch 4cyl. cars these days let alone the 6cyl. george just ran a 6.7 last wknd., no 3 rotor, let alone a 2 rotor has even come close. to be blunt, the 6cyl. guys are mopping the floor w/ the rotaries. lingenfelter ran 6.99 w/ a 4cyl. last year, no rotary has ever run that in competition. if you've noticed the nhra has been discreetly lowering the min. weights for 2 rotors just to get them competitive again, the min. for 2 rotors in the modified class is actually lower than for 4cyl, that's pathetic. once people considered the 3 rotor on par w/ a v8, but the v8's were so dominant people like abel complained and they were ultimately banned. now the 3 rotor can even compete w/ the 6 cyl cars. the only success rotaries have had this year is in all motor, and imo that's more a function of the other cars being handicapped by fwd than it is of the rotary's superiority. when you go out to the import events, you can really tell that the aura that the rotary once held is dwindling. before, people would compare the turbo 2 rotor fd w/ the big 6 cyl. cars like the supra or 300zx. now it seems a fairer comparison would be with turbo civics and cavaliers, even then the rotary still comes up short.

Flyrx7

iTrader: (1)

Maybe these numbers meen something to the 1/4 crowd, but to the original rotary target group they dont' mean a whole lot. The rotary engine was never really meant for the drag strip, but for the twisties or the road course. Just because some people do well at the strip with the rotary shouldn't shade your opinion, it is after all the little engine that could. The main reason for the rotary was an engine that was light, had good hp values (for what it was), small package, and little to no vibration.
You have to remember that the piston engines have SEVERAL decades of R&D behind them (more than a century, actually), while the rotary has just a few decades, not to mention only ONE Mfg (Mazda, the little company that could )
If you're having doubts, then by all means jump ship, the rotary engine really belongs to those that want to be different, the kind that can stand against the main stream and say, "Peestons? We don't need no stinkeen peestons!"
Anyhow, that's kinda the way I see it.

KYPREO

Well, the RENESIS engine has just been named "International Engine of the Year" at the Engine Expo 2003 in Stuttgart, Germany.

Comparing the RENESIS to the 350Z engine was a bit weak. First of all even if you take into account the effective displacement of the RENESIS, it becomes a 2.6L. It is still almost 1L smaller by displacement than the 350Z, and makes only 20kW less (27hp).

As for the "complex" inductive system remark. Since when is a multi-cam, variable valve timing system less complex than a 6-port rotary? Get off it.

As for the turbo remark. Well, yes, the high velocity exhaust gases off the peripheral exhaust port allowed the small engine to spool up big turbos, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. The increased port efficiency in what it loses in exhaust gas velocity at lower rev ranges, will make up at higher revs (the exhaust gas will flow more up high), plus you have the added advantage that the volumetric efficiency of the engine is also higher throughout the entire rev range. Internal EG recirculation is also reduced which increases the detonation threshold, meaning increased power. The difference is side port exhaust simply means you choose different exhaust turbine housings.

600HP CLUB

THE HELL YOU TALKING ABOUT? WORLD FASTEST ROTARY WENT 6.89!

it's doesn't matter if it wasn't "in competition" he hit that ****! and that's what counts.

OC_

All this speculation...
i hate to speculate myself, but....

i think the RENESIS engine is going to have a ton of exhaust just like any other rotary, its just not going to dump so much unburnt fuel like every other rotary.

If you where to turbo a RENESIS, i think there is a potential problem for overheating the exhaust port and causing some sort of damage because of the way its set up. But who knows! give me one and ill find out!

I would like to know if the Renesis engines internals are compatiable with the older engines. For instance, i want to know if its light weight rotors can go in our engines!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I wouldn't trust the 1.5mm apex seals with a peripheral exhaust port. Time to get out the mill! j/k

The Renesis is the "International Engine of the Year". They're pretty good at what they do over at Engine Technology International. I'd go along with their opinions before some guy on an internet forum.

fdracer

it does matter cause that's only what can be confirmed. you can't verify the validity of something done in practice, how do you know a 4cyl. didn't run even quicker in testing. regardless, that's exactly what i'm talking about, only 5 years ago, you'd be considered a moron if you even compared a 4cyl. to a 2 rotor. now, a 2rotor isn't even mentioned in the same breath as a 4cyl., we have to compare 3rotors to 4cyl.

RX794

I don't know if this will help answer your initial question, BUT this is just something to big up the rotary motor, can you say International Engine of the Year:

http://www.adm02.com/rx8engine/static/rx8engine.asp

DaedelGT

Umm yeah, the 350Z'S 6 Cylinder is almost 3 times the size of the renesis, yet it only makes 40 more horses

RageRace

I believe what FDracer is trying to say is where is all the new R&D for rotary POWER? Who cares if you have X lbs less than a pistoned car? Who cares if your engine is producing sick power for a 1.3L? The point is(and i hate to say it because i LOVE the FD) is that the rotary is getting dominated by even 4cyl cars, never mind 6's & 8's. The 3 rotor was supposed to be compared to a V8 and its not even a close comparison when they are fully track tuned, i mean they have Mustangs that do 7s on street tires! Dont get me wrong i wouldnt drive anything else, but why the F*** arent we even close. I HOPE this new engine will provide new frontiers.

fdracer

thank you, that's all i'm trying to say.

WSCrusader112

Wow how many post on this will there be?

12abridgeport

I think you guys have to go to the basics, lighter motor = less weight in the front = better launch. On top of it i'm sure rx8 will out handle 350z.

But if you want a turbo rotary, Renesis is not the engine because of the exhaust ports.