Ran tolulene today!!!
#26
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Originally posted by Hamburgler
My buddy just broke his engine pretty bad using toulene at only 15 psi. Broke two seals and put two dents on his rotor, ruined the housing.
Not sure what the other factors were though.
My buddy just broke his engine pretty bad using toulene at only 15 psi. Broke two seals and put two dents on his rotor, ruined the housing.
Not sure what the other factors were though.
Hamburgler, thats quite the slippery slope you have taken...
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What are you talking about? People are wanting opinions and I added that someone I know broke his motor using toulene. Air fuel was mid 11's all across.
No assumptions here.
No assumptions here.
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Originally posted by Hamburgler
What are you talking about? People are wanting opinions and I added that someone I know broke his motor using toulene. Air fuel was mid 11's all across.
No assumptions here.
What are you talking about? People are wanting opinions and I added that someone I know broke his motor using toulene. Air fuel was mid 11's all across.
No assumptions here.
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Originally posted by Evil Aviator
Hehehe, well that explains the blown motor then. Actually, you bring up a good point that people who don't understand fueling issues should leave the tuning to professionals.
Hehehe, well that explains the blown motor then. Actually, you bring up a good point that people who don't understand fueling issues should leave the tuning to professionals.
#30
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People have been running Xylene/Tuolene for years with no adverse effects. Just don't exceed a 30% mix as the car will start to drive funky.
as stated
Tuolene- 114 octane
Xylene- 117 octane (cost is about same get Xylene)
Open an account at Sherman Williams and you will get an additional discount. I pay $32 for 5 gallons.
7 gallons 92
3 gallons of Xylene
3 tablespoons/ounces Marvel Mystery Oil (lubricant)
yields
100 octane
Allows higher boost/timing in all turbocharged cars with proper tuning.
I'm not sure if it was designed for an internal combustion engine... but guys in TurboBuicks have been running it for years with no problems.
It is a good idea for us turbo guys to add a gallon to every fillup just for added insurance to avoid detonation. It is listed in the table showing what fuel is comprised of. Directly related to octane levels.
Want more fun and not mess up your cat if you run one. Add 3 gallons of Xylene to 7 gallons of 100 octane unleaded . Keep turning up the boost/fuel.....
-GNX7
as stated
Tuolene- 114 octane
Xylene- 117 octane (cost is about same get Xylene)
Open an account at Sherman Williams and you will get an additional discount. I pay $32 for 5 gallons.
7 gallons 92
3 gallons of Xylene
3 tablespoons/ounces Marvel Mystery Oil (lubricant)
yields
100 octane
Allows higher boost/timing in all turbocharged cars with proper tuning.
I'm not sure if it was designed for an internal combustion engine... but guys in TurboBuicks have been running it for years with no problems.
It is a good idea for us turbo guys to add a gallon to every fillup just for added insurance to avoid detonation. It is listed in the table showing what fuel is comprised of. Directly related to octane levels.
Want more fun and not mess up your cat if you run one. Add 3 gallons of Xylene to 7 gallons of 100 octane unleaded . Keep turning up the boost/fuel.....
-GNX7
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Originally posted by Hamburgler
What explains the blown motor and what do you mean by your last statement?
What explains the blown motor and what do you mean by your last statement?
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Originally posted by Evil Aviator
Toulene has a stoich AFR of 11.5:1, and a best power AFR of about 9.8:1, and you would want to run richer than this under boost. That mid-11:1 AFR must have really fried that engine something awful, and your buddy probably thought he was being safe with that AFR, lol.
Toulene has a stoich AFR of 11.5:1, and a best power AFR of about 9.8:1, and you would want to run richer than this under boost. That mid-11:1 AFR must have really fried that engine something awful, and your buddy probably thought he was being safe with that AFR, lol.
#33
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Originally posted by Hamburgler
What are you talking about? People are wanting opinions and I added that someone I know broke his motor using toulene. Air fuel was mid 11's all across.
No assumptions here.
What are you talking about? People are wanting opinions and I added that someone I know broke his motor using toulene. Air fuel was mid 11's all across.
No assumptions here.
Please, show the proof that because your friend used Toluene he blew his motor? You have piqued my interest, and I would like to see it.
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Originally posted by Jesuscookies
Please, show the proof that because your friend used Toluene he blew his motor? You have piqued my interest, and I would like to see it.
Please, show the proof that because your friend used Toluene he blew his motor? You have piqued my interest, and I would like to see it.
Originally posted by Hamburgler
No ****? Wouldn't you need a killer ignition system though to run that low of a afr?
No ****? Wouldn't you need a killer ignition system though to run that low of a afr?
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Originally posted by Jesuscookies
That may have been an opinion, but it was a useless post. There are many reasons why people pop their motors. However, To say that because your friend used toluene he blew his motor, is an assumption, and a slipperly slope approach to a real problem, which in this case sounds like the tuning.
Please, show the proof that because your friend used Toluene he blew his motor? You have piqued my interest, and I would like to see it.
That may have been an opinion, but it was a useless post. There are many reasons why people pop their motors. However, To say that because your friend used toluene he blew his motor, is an assumption, and a slipperly slope approach to a real problem, which in this case sounds like the tuning.
Please, show the proof that because your friend used Toluene he blew his motor? You have piqued my interest, and I would like to see it.
Last edited by Evil Aviator; 12-03-03 at 05:04 PM.
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Great thread, provided a lot of information in areas which were a bit grey to me before.
Although I dont mess with boost too much, I think the chance to use xylene as added protection againist detenation during track events is great.
GNX7- I've seen the statement of 30% concentration being at the upper thresholds of mixing as well but in your example, of 7g fuel & 3g xylene, thats a 42% mixture. Have you done this with no adverse effects?
Effects on the premixing ratio for those of us with no OMP?
Although I dont mess with boost too much, I think the chance to use xylene as added protection againist detenation during track events is great.
GNX7- I've seen the statement of 30% concentration being at the upper thresholds of mixing as well but in your example, of 7g fuel & 3g xylene, thats a 42% mixture. Have you done this with no adverse effects?
Effects on the premixing ratio for those of us with no OMP?
Last edited by Ni5mo180SX; 12-03-03 at 04:17 PM.
#37
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Originally posted by Evil Aviator
[B]He did show proof - the lean AFR. I think this is a valid point.
[B]
[B]He did show proof - the lean AFR. I think this is a valid point.
[B]
On to more important stuff. What does this statement mean: "Toulene has a stoich AFR of 11.5:1, and a best power AFR of about 9.8:1, and you would want to run richer than this under boost. That mid-11:1 AFR must have really fried that engine something awful, and your buddy probably thought he was being safe with that AFR, "
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Originally posted by Jesuscookies
On to more important stuff. What does this statement mean: "Toulene has a stoich AFR of 11.5:1, and a best power AFR of about 9.8:1, and you would want to run richer than this under boost. That mid-11:1 AFR must have really fried that engine something awful, and your buddy probably thought he was being safe with that AFR, "
On to more important stuff. What does this statement mean: "Toulene has a stoich AFR of 11.5:1, and a best power AFR of about 9.8:1, and you would want to run richer than this under boost. That mid-11:1 AFR must have really fried that engine something awful, and your buddy probably thought he was being safe with that AFR, "
AFR = Air/Fuel Ratio by weight. For example, 15:1 AFR = 15 parts air to 1 part fuel. It could be 15 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel, or 15 ounces of air to 1 ounce of fuel, etc.
Stoich is short for "stoichiometric", which means the chemically-correct air/fuel ratio by weight. Different types of fuels have different chemical compositions. Each composition has a chemically-correct mixing ratio with air. Here are some common ratios (some brands of fuel will vary slightly, especially with complex fuel like pump gas):
14.7:1 Regular Unleaded Pump Gas
14.4:1 Premium Unleaded Pump Gas
11.5:1 Toluene
6.5:1 Methanol Racing Fuel
Reducing air (or increasing fuel) to this ratio will result in what is called a "rich" air/fuel ratio. The extra fuel doesn't have enough air to react with chemically, so it is wasted, which means that gas mileage suffers. However, the extra fuel cools the combustion process, creating more power and reducing the chance of detonation. Therefore, the "best power air/fuel ratio" is more rich than the stoichiometric ratio. Here are the approximate best power air/fuel ratios of the before-mentioned fuels:
12.5:1 Regular Unleaded Pump Gas
12.0:1 Premium Unleaded Pump Gas
9.8:1 Toluene
4.5:1 Methanol Racing Fuel
Of course, each engine system is different, so the best power air-fuel ratio needs to be determined by an experienced engine tuner. Also, richer ratios than those listed above may be desirable to combat detonation if the tuner determines this to be more advantageous than the more power-efficient "best power" ratio.
Adding air (or subtracting fuel) to the stoichiometric ratio will result in what is called a "lean" air/fuel ratio. Usually a lean air/fuel ratio will yield better gas mileage than the stoichiometric ratio because the fuel consumption rate is reduced. However, since there is less fuel to cool the combustion process, heat is increased, which increases the chance of detonation.
Now, if you look at the numbers posted, you will see that 11.5:1 would correspond to a slightly rich air/fuel ratio for best power when using premium unleaded pump gas (11.5:1 is more rich than 12.0:1). However, when it comes to toluene, 11.5:1 is its stoichiometric ratio, which would be similar to running premium unleaded pump gas at a 14.4:1 ratio. This is usually too lean to run an engine under boost in a safe manner.
So given that, do you think you know why Hamburgler's friend fried his engine running a mid-11 AFR under boost with toluene? I agree that the lean mixture is not necessarily the reason the engine blew, but it is a strong suspect.
Also, given that, do you know why that jerk, Evil Aviator, keeps telling people not to tune their engine by chasing some magical AFR that somebody on the internet said was good?
#39
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Originally posted by Evil Aviator
Sorry, sometimes I forget that I need to tone down the techno-babble so that normal people can understand the discussion. Let me try again in English:
AFR = Air/Fuel Ratio by weight. For example, 15:1 AFR = 15 parts air to 1 part fuel. It could be 15 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel, or 15 ounces of air to 1 ounce of fuel, etc.
Stoich is short for "stoichiometric", which means the chemically-correct air/fuel ratio by weight. Different types of fuels have different chemical compositions. Each composition has a chemically-correct mixing ratio with air. Here are some common ratios (some brands of fuel will vary slightly, especially with complex fuel like pump gas):
14.7:1 Regular Unleaded Pump Gas
14.4:1 Premium Unleaded Pump Gas
11.5:1 Toluene
6.5:1 Methanol Racing Fuel
Reducing air (or increasing fuel) to this ratio will result in what is called a "rich" air/fuel ratio. The extra fuel doesn't have enough air to react with chemically, so it is wasted, which means that gas mileage suffers. However, the extra fuel cools the combustion process, creating more power and reducing the chance of detonation. Therefore, the "best power air/fuel ratio" is more rich than the stoichiometric ratio. Here are the approximate best power air/fuel ratios of the before-mentioned fuels:
12.5:1 Regular Unleaded Pump Gas
12.0:1 Premium Unleaded Pump Gas
9.8:1 Toluene
4.5:1 Methanol Racing Fuel
Of course, each engine system is different, so the best power air-fuel ratio needs to be determined by an experienced engine tuner. Also, richer ratios than those listed above may be desirable to combat detonation if the tuner determines this to be more advantageous than the more power-efficient "best power" ratio.
Adding air (or subtracting fuel) to the stoichiometric ratio will result in what is called a "lean" air/fuel ratio. Usually a lean air/fuel ratio will yield better gas mileage than the stoichiometric ratio because the fuel consumption rate is reduced. However, since there is less fuel to cool the combustion process, heat is increased, which increases the chance of detonation.
Now, if you look at the numbers posted, you will see that 11.5:1 would correspond to a slightly rich air/fuel ratio for best power when using premium unleaded pump gas (11.5:1 is more rich than 12.0:1). However, when it comes to toluene, 11.5:1 is its stoichiometric ratio, which would be similar to running premium unleaded pump gas at a 14.4:1 ratio. This is usually too lean to run an engine under boost in a safe manner.
So given that, do you think you know why Hamburgler's friend fried his engine running a mid-11 AFR under boost with toluene? I agree that the lean mixture is not necessarily the reason the engine blew, but it is a strong suspect.
Also, given that, do you know why that jerk, Evil Aviator, keeps telling people not to tune their engine by chasing some magical AFR that somebody on the internet said was good?
Sorry, sometimes I forget that I need to tone down the techno-babble so that normal people can understand the discussion. Let me try again in English:
AFR = Air/Fuel Ratio by weight. For example, 15:1 AFR = 15 parts air to 1 part fuel. It could be 15 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel, or 15 ounces of air to 1 ounce of fuel, etc.
Stoich is short for "stoichiometric", which means the chemically-correct air/fuel ratio by weight. Different types of fuels have different chemical compositions. Each composition has a chemically-correct mixing ratio with air. Here are some common ratios (some brands of fuel will vary slightly, especially with complex fuel like pump gas):
14.7:1 Regular Unleaded Pump Gas
14.4:1 Premium Unleaded Pump Gas
11.5:1 Toluene
6.5:1 Methanol Racing Fuel
Reducing air (or increasing fuel) to this ratio will result in what is called a "rich" air/fuel ratio. The extra fuel doesn't have enough air to react with chemically, so it is wasted, which means that gas mileage suffers. However, the extra fuel cools the combustion process, creating more power and reducing the chance of detonation. Therefore, the "best power air/fuel ratio" is more rich than the stoichiometric ratio. Here are the approximate best power air/fuel ratios of the before-mentioned fuels:
12.5:1 Regular Unleaded Pump Gas
12.0:1 Premium Unleaded Pump Gas
9.8:1 Toluene
4.5:1 Methanol Racing Fuel
Of course, each engine system is different, so the best power air-fuel ratio needs to be determined by an experienced engine tuner. Also, richer ratios than those listed above may be desirable to combat detonation if the tuner determines this to be more advantageous than the more power-efficient "best power" ratio.
Adding air (or subtracting fuel) to the stoichiometric ratio will result in what is called a "lean" air/fuel ratio. Usually a lean air/fuel ratio will yield better gas mileage than the stoichiometric ratio because the fuel consumption rate is reduced. However, since there is less fuel to cool the combustion process, heat is increased, which increases the chance of detonation.
Now, if you look at the numbers posted, you will see that 11.5:1 would correspond to a slightly rich air/fuel ratio for best power when using premium unleaded pump gas (11.5:1 is more rich than 12.0:1). However, when it comes to toluene, 11.5:1 is its stoichiometric ratio, which would be similar to running premium unleaded pump gas at a 14.4:1 ratio. This is usually too lean to run an engine under boost in a safe manner.
So given that, do you think you know why Hamburgler's friend fried his engine running a mid-11 AFR under boost with toluene? I agree that the lean mixture is not necessarily the reason the engine blew, but it is a strong suspect.
Also, given that, do you know why that jerk, Evil Aviator, keeps telling people not to tune their engine by chasing some magical AFR that somebody on the internet said was good?
That would also mean that Hamburgler's friend was running pure toluene in his tank, or at best a very high concentration of toluene right?
Also according to the numbers you gave up top, if I am running 10Gals of 91 and 1 gal of Toluene, my ideal AFR as a average of these 2 gases is 11.8, correct? anything above that may be pushing it?
Finally, if Toluene is supposed to be so good as a anti dentonation fuel, does this stoich level of 9.8 negate that? even in small quantities as many use?
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Originally posted by Jesuscookies
That would also mean that Hamburgler's friend was running pure toluene in his tank, or at best a very high concentration of toluene right?
That would also mean that Hamburgler's friend was running pure toluene in his tank, or at best a very high concentration of toluene right?
Originally posted by Jesuscookies
Also according to the numbers you gave up top, if I am running 10Gals of 91 and 1 gal of Toluene, my ideal AFR as a average of these 2 gases is 11.8, correct? anything above that may be pushing it?
Also according to the numbers you gave up top, if I am running 10Gals of 91 and 1 gal of Toluene, my ideal AFR as a average of these 2 gases is 11.8, correct? anything above that may be pushing it?
Originally posted by Jesuscookies
Finally, if Toluene is supposed to be so good as a anti dentonation fuel, does this stoich level of 9.8 negate that? even in small quantities as many use?
Finally, if Toluene is supposed to be so good as a anti dentonation fuel, does this stoich level of 9.8 negate that? even in small quantities as many use?
2) Toluene is a good anti-detonation fuel because it has a high octane rating of 118 R+M/2.
3) The stoich AFR for toluene is 11.5, not 9.8. Don't confuse "stoich" with "best power" or "best economy" AFR's.
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Mixing of fuel
So Evil Moderator, since I run full race fuel K & S Extreme Unleded at 103-107, does that mean that if I started to do the mixing of fuel the car should be retuned.
I had the car tuned by Koji at XS to run 17-18 lbs of boost and put out lots of power. I like the idea of saving a bunch of money on race fuel (over $1,000) spent last year. However I do not want to pop my motor. I was thinking this was the way to go to save me a boat load of money but now it sounds that if I do this I should have the car retuned with the mixed fuel.
Any response would be appreciated.
Allan
07 SM2
I had the car tuned by Koji at XS to run 17-18 lbs of boost and put out lots of power. I like the idea of saving a bunch of money on race fuel (over $1,000) spent last year. However I do not want to pop my motor. I was thinking this was the way to go to save me a boat load of money but now it sounds that if I do this I should have the car retuned with the mixed fuel.
Any response would be appreciated.
Allan
07 SM2
#42
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Boy, this is worse than the drifting threads...
Evil Aviator is right - different "chemicals" should change your target AFR's, period.
Try and talk to the guys who run methanol and argue your 10.0:1 AFR was still too rich - they will all laugh in your face.
-Ted
Evil Aviator is right - different "chemicals" should change your target AFR's, period.
Try and talk to the guys who run methanol and argue your 10.0:1 AFR was still too rich - they will all laugh in your face.
-Ted
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Re: Mixing of fuel
Originally posted by Spank
So Evil Moderator, since I run full race fuel K & S Extreme Unleded at 103-107, does that mean that if I started to do the mixing of fuel the car should be retuned.
So Evil Moderator, since I run full race fuel K & S Extreme Unleded at 103-107, does that mean that if I started to do the mixing of fuel the car should be retuned.
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Re: Re: Mixing of fuel
Originally posted by Evil Aviator
If you are asking a question like that, I think you are better off paying $1,000/year for racing fuel rather than messing with things that you don't understand, especially when those things go "boom" if you screw up. I don't mean that in a bad way, as we all have our own strenghts and weaknesses, but I think it's important that we have at least a basic idea of what we should and should not attempt. For example, I do not weld aluminum or stainless steel, or mess with my transmission. This is not because I am stupid, but because I am smart enough to know that I am not good at these things. Sure, it costs me money, but not as much as if I botch the job in an attempt to save money.
If you are asking a question like that, I think you are better off paying $1,000/year for racing fuel rather than messing with things that you don't understand, especially when those things go "boom" if you screw up. I don't mean that in a bad way, as we all have our own strenghts and weaknesses, but I think it's important that we have at least a basic idea of what we should and should not attempt. For example, I do not weld aluminum or stainless steel, or mess with my transmission. This is not because I am stupid, but because I am smart enough to know that I am not good at these things. Sure, it costs me money, but not as much as if I botch the job in an attempt to save money.
Will it actually be dangerous to the engine for a person with a stock ECU setup to run an additive like toluene? If in fact the additive mix requires a much richer a/f ratio, will the stock ECU actually be able to produce this mixture, or will the advantage of higher detonation resistance that the additive provides be offset (or worse) by the fact that you will end up running too lean?
I know that aftermarket ecu's can be retuned to take advantage of the additive by richening the mixture, but what will the stock ecu do, by itself?
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Anybody have a resopnse to Rotaspec? Can the stock ECU compensate for the A/F ratio when running tolulene or xylene. I would think it would try to keep it stock and you end up lean with the mix. What would you gain. I might have to test this idea.
#47
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back from the dead...
Remember, these chemicals are "aromatics", and that in itself implies "not very clean burning".
This is why recommended ratios are like 20% or less.
It's basically an "octane enhancer", and used in recommended doses, it will stave off detonation...to a point.
-Ted
Remember, these chemicals are "aromatics", and that in itself implies "not very clean burning".
This is why recommended ratios are like 20% or less.
It's basically an "octane enhancer", and used in recommended doses, it will stave off detonation...to a point.
-Ted
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I've basically stayed away from this topic for one reason, I dont understand why people care about spending $40 on 5 gallons, thats $8 a gallon.
I can buy 116 cheaper than that. I dont understand why anyone cares about this stuff. Is it just cause its easier to find than race gas???
Guess its just cool to live in Alabama where I can pick up 112 and 116 out of a pump 3 minutes from my house haha
STEPHEN
I can buy 116 cheaper than that. I dont understand why anyone cares about this stuff. Is it just cause its easier to find than race gas???
Guess its just cool to live in Alabama where I can pick up 112 and 116 out of a pump 3 minutes from my house haha
STEPHEN
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Originally posted by SPOautos
I've basically stayed away from this topic for one reason, I dont understand why people care about spending $40 on 5 gallons, thats $8 a gallon.
I can buy 116 cheaper than that. I dont understand why anyone cares about this stuff. Is it just cause its easier to find than race gas???
Guess its just cool to live in Alabama where I can pick up 112 and 116 out of a pump 3 minutes from my house haha
STEPHEN
I've basically stayed away from this topic for one reason, I dont understand why people care about spending $40 on 5 gallons, thats $8 a gallon.
I can buy 116 cheaper than that. I dont understand why anyone cares about this stuff. Is it just cause its easier to find than race gas???
Guess its just cool to live in Alabama where I can pick up 112 and 116 out of a pump 3 minutes from my house haha
STEPHEN
#50
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I live in CA to and race gas just just a few miles away...
I can buy race gas for less and have properly formulated fuel that i dont hve to worry about.
there was a big post on this a while back and it has been discussed several places over the years.
I posted the prices for differnt types of race gas that could be aquired by anyone and shipped to your front door cheeper than putting other things in your gas tank.
I can buy race gas for less and have properly formulated fuel that i dont hve to worry about.
there was a big post on this a while back and it has been discussed several places over the years.
I posted the prices for differnt types of race gas that could be aquired by anyone and shipped to your front door cheeper than putting other things in your gas tank.