quick question on water injection
05-21-02 | 09:52 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Rotary Freak
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From: l.a.
quick question on water injection
What type of water are you supposed to use in a water injection set-up? If water is to be combusted won't it leave deposits? Do we need highly filtered water, i.e. laboratory grade water, to prevent mineral deposits in the combustion chamber?
05-22-02 | 04:37 AM
#3
W. TX chirpin Monkey
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,684
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From: Mesquite, TX
You definitely want to use distilled water for the sake of preserving the motor. Tap water varies in hardness and thus the amount of sedimentary and metallic deposits will also vary. In other words some tap is ok while others is REALLY bad. With the water though, you'll also need to mix in some form of anti-freeze. i.e. methanol, nitromethane, and certain types of alcohols. Stuff that combusts well. I wouldn't recommend actually running some form of coolant or antifreeze. NOTE: the amount you mix will depend greatly on the how cold the ambient air is. But overall the percentage is really small. Like less than 10%, especially with Nitromethane. It adds some HP but nothing really worth bragging about. Kind of like prescription steroids. Not enough to make you like Arnold. The water injection will keep the temps down and help the combustion chamber from building up carbon deposits.
05-22-02 | 05:14 PM
#5
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Rotary Freak
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From: l.a.
Yeah, but distilled water still has a lot of things solublized in it i.e. minerals, etc. the way I see it distilled water is just water that is finely filtered, which is fine for getting out particulates suspended in the water but doesn't completely get rid of solutes in the water.
05-22-02 | 05:17 PM
#6
Originally posted by LUV94RX7 I'll be using 10-20% methanol and distilled water. You don't want to clog up your injectors with hard water.Ken
Ken
05-22-02 | 07:40 PM
#7
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Rotary Freak
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From: l.a.
Originally posted by LUV94RX7
Sorry, not distilled, water thru a reverse osmosis water purification system.
Ken
Sorry, not distilled, water thru a reverse osmosis water purification system.
Ken
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05-22-02 | 07:56 PM
#8
Originally posted by fdracer
Where might I purchase reverse osmosis water and does anyone have any data on the ppm content of solutes in reverse osmosis water? Cause I know it's still not perfectly pure.
Where might I purchase reverse osmosis water and does anyone have any data on the ppm content of solutes in reverse osmosis water? Cause I know it's still not perfectly pure.
Ken
05-22-02 | 08:08 PM
#9
05-22-02 | 08:28 PM
#10
Full Member
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From: Montclair, CA
aren't those reverse osmosis systems a couple of grand, Im just saying this because my cousins house has that system and it was like 3 grand, but that is for the whole house though. Unless you can buy smaller ones. I didn't go to the link above so sorry LUV94RX7 if their is a cheaper system on that site.
05-22-02 | 09:57 PM
#11
Originally posted by kundo aren't those reverse osmosis systems a couple of grand, Im just saying this because my cousins house has that system and it was like 3 grand, but that is for the whole house though. Unless you can buy smaller ones. I didn't go to the link above so sorry LUV94RX7 if their is a cheaper system on that site.
Ken
05-22-02 | 11:25 PM
#12
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From: Montclair, CA
Originally posted by LUV94RX7
The water is really good tasting and makes great coffee.
Ken
The water is really good tasting and makes great coffee.
Ken
05-23-02 | 02:06 AM
#13
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Marysville, Ohio
I have a reverse osmosis water system at my house, and i will sell you all some water for $1 a gallon plus shipping! 
Here is my take on water injection....do what the turbo buick guys do, run distilled alcohol and some Marvel Mystery Oil. Works well at quenching detonation, and acts as fuel enrichment.
Here is my take on water injection....do what the turbo buick guys do, run distilled alcohol and some Marvel Mystery Oil. Works well at quenching detonation, and acts as fuel enrichment.
05-23-02 | 11:33 AM
#15
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Rotary Freak
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From: l.a.
Originally posted by LUV94RX7
FDRACER asked me where you can get one. I have no clue on the costs. My wife's work has one. She can bring home enough pure water to supply my needs. I have a 3 gallon fuel cell for my Aquamist 2s water injection system. The water is really good tasting and makes great coffee.
Ken
FDRACER asked me where you can get one. I have no clue on the costs. My wife's work has one. She can bring home enough pure water to supply my needs. I have a 3 gallon fuel cell for my Aquamist 2s water injection system. The water is really good tasting and makes great coffee.
Ken
05-23-02 | 11:41 AM
#16
Originally posted by ASE_Joe
I have a reverse osmosis water system at my house, and i will sell you all some water for $1 a gallon plus shipping!
Here is my take on water injection....do what the turbo buick guys do, run distilled alcohol and some Marvel Mystery Oil. Works well at quenching detonation, and acts as fuel enrichment.
I have a reverse osmosis water system at my house, and i will sell you all some water for $1 a gallon plus shipping!
Here is my take on water injection....do what the turbo buick guys do, run distilled alcohol and some Marvel Mystery Oil. Works well at quenching detonation, and acts as fuel enrichment.
What ratios of Marvel Mystery Oil/methanol/water are the Buick guys running for their cars?
TIA
Joe
08-08-04 | 08:51 PM
#17
Haven't we ALL heard this
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,948
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From: Indiana
Originally Posted by 93TTRX7
Jeff at Rotary Power says that water injection can wear out the seals. It can ruin the lubrication
James
08-08-04 | 09:08 PM
#18
Old [Sch|F]ool
Joined: May 2001
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From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Methanol is only for keeping the mixture from freezing. If it never gets that cold, use straight waterm since methanol dilutes the water effect.
The water doesn't get combusted. That is, after all, the point to water injection... the water is a buffer that prevents the charge from exploding (detonation). It stays inert.
The water doesn't get combusted. That is, after all, the point to water injection... the water is a buffer that prevents the charge from exploding (detonation). It stays inert.
08-09-04 | 05:04 PM
#21
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From: UK
Originally Posted by peejay
Methanol is only for keeping the mixture from freezing. If it never gets that cold, use straight waterm since methanol dilutes the water effect.
The water doesn't get combusted. That is, after all, the point to water injection... the water is a buffer that prevents the charge from exploding (detonation). It stays inert.
The water doesn't get combusted. That is, after all, the point to water injection... the water is a buffer that prevents the charge from exploding (detonation). It stays inert.
Secondly water is NOT inert. The temperatures of combustion are enough to disassociate the water, at which point it starts to have a very beneficial effect on the combustion process.
08-09-04 | 09:40 PM
#23
Old [Sch|F]ool
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From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Originally Posted by bill Shurvinton
Wrong on a couple of counts. If the injection is at all upstream of the ports then the methanol does help cool the charge further than water on its own, as once the air charge is saturated with water there is still room for methanol (i.e. you get cooling without a loss of air volume).
Secondly water is NOT inert. The temperatures of combustion are enough to disassociate the water, at which point it starts to have a very beneficial effect on the combustion process.
Secondly water is NOT inert. The temperatures of combustion are enough to disassociate the water, at which point it starts to have a very beneficial effect on the combustion process.
If the water is dissociating, then it is un-burning. I can see flashing to steam, with the resultant high rate of expansion (1800:1 isn't it?), but under the pressures in the chamber I don't know about actual dissociation. Have you got any literature to point me towards? I'm interested.
08-10-04 | 10:56 AM
#24
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From: UK
No no no. Charge cooling if you are doing it properly gives you the potential for huge VE gains (say up to 30%)
If you have access to a good library, try and find a copy of Glassman's masterwork 'Combustion'. This goes through combustion in more detail than you would ever be interested in. Below is a much nicer analysis than I could write done by Robert Harris some years ago.
If you have access to a good library, try and find a copy of Glassman's masterwork 'Combustion'. This goes through combustion in more detail than you would ever be interested in. Below is a much nicer analysis than I could write done by Robert Harris some years ago.
Let us take a quick look at ignition. The first thing that happens is a plasma
cloud is formed by the arc consisting of super heated electron stripped atoms.
When this cloud "explodes" a ball of high energy particles is shot outward.
The highest energy particles are the hydrogen atoms - and they penetrate the
charge about 5 times as far as the rest of the particles. As they lose energy
and return to normal temps - about 5000 k - they begin to react chemically
with any surrounding fuel and oxygen particles. The effectiveness of spark
ignition is directly related to the availability of free hydrogen. Molecules
containing tightly bound hydrogen such as methanol, nitromethane, and methane
are far more difficult to ignite than those with less bonds.
During combustion - water - H2O ( present and formed ) is extremely active in
the oxidation of the hydrocarbon. The predominate reaction is the following:
OH + H ==> H2O
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
Loop to top and repeat.
The OH radical is the most effective at stripping hydrogen from the HC
molecule in most ranges of combustion temperature.
Another predominate process is the HOO radical. It is more active at lower
temperatures and is competitive with the H2O2 at higher temps.
OO + H ==> HOO
HOO + H ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
This mechanism is very active at both stripping hydrogen from the HC and for
getting O2 into usable combustion reactions.
Next consider the combustion of CO. Virtually no C ==> CO2. Its a two step
process. C+O ==> CO. CO virtually drops out of early mid combustion as the O
H reactions are significantly faster and effectively compete for the available
oxygen.
Then consider that pure CO and pure O2 burns very slowly if at all. Virtually
the only mechanism to complete the oxidization ( Glassman - Combustion Third
Edition ) of CO ==> CO2 is the "water method".
CO + OH ==> CO2 + H
H + OH ==> H20
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
goto to top and repeat.
This simple reaction accounts for 99% + of the conversion of CO to CO2. It is
important in that fully two thirds of the energy of carbon combustion is
released in the CO ==> CO2 process and that this process occurs slow and late
in the combustion of the fuel. Excess water can and does speed this
conversion - by actively entering into the conversion process thru the above
mechanism.
The peak flame temperature is determined by three factors alone - the energy
present and released, the total atomic mass, and the atomic ratio - commonly
called CHON for Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. The chemical
reactions in combustion leading to peak temperature are supremely indifferent
to pressure. The temperatures and rates of normal IC combustion are
sufficient to cause most of the fuel and water present to be dissociated and
enter into the flame.
As can be seen above, water is most definitily not only not inert but is a
very active and important player in the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel.
Ricardo and others have documented that under certain conditions ( normally
supercharged ) water can replace fuel up to about 50% and develop the same
power output, or that the power output can be increased by up to 50% addition
of water. This conditions were investigated by NACA and others for piston
aircraft engines. It is important to note that these improvements came at the
upper end of the power range where sufficient fuel and air was available to
have an excess of energy that could not be converted to usable pressure in a
timely manner.
As a side note - Volvo recently released some SAE papers documenting the use
of cooled EGR to both reduce detonation and return to a stoic mixture under
boost in the 15 psi range - while maintaining approximately the same power
output. Notice - they reduced fuel and still get the same power output.
When you consider that EGR consists primarily of nitrogen, CO2, and water ( to
the tune of about two gallons formed from each gallon of water burned ), you
might draw the conclusion that it also was not "inert". They peaked their
tests at about 18% cooled EGR - which would work out to about 36% water
injection and got about the same results under similar conditions that the
early NACA research got.
cloud is formed by the arc consisting of super heated electron stripped atoms.
When this cloud "explodes" a ball of high energy particles is shot outward.
The highest energy particles are the hydrogen atoms - and they penetrate the
charge about 5 times as far as the rest of the particles. As they lose energy
and return to normal temps - about 5000 k - they begin to react chemically
with any surrounding fuel and oxygen particles. The effectiveness of spark
ignition is directly related to the availability of free hydrogen. Molecules
containing tightly bound hydrogen such as methanol, nitromethane, and methane
are far more difficult to ignite than those with less bonds.
During combustion - water - H2O ( present and formed ) is extremely active in
the oxidation of the hydrocarbon. The predominate reaction is the following:
OH + H ==> H2O
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
Loop to top and repeat.
The OH radical is the most effective at stripping hydrogen from the HC
molecule in most ranges of combustion temperature.
Another predominate process is the HOO radical. It is more active at lower
temperatures and is competitive with the H2O2 at higher temps.
OO + H ==> HOO
HOO + H ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
This mechanism is very active at both stripping hydrogen from the HC and for
getting O2 into usable combustion reactions.
Next consider the combustion of CO. Virtually no C ==> CO2. Its a two step
process. C+O ==> CO. CO virtually drops out of early mid combustion as the O
H reactions are significantly faster and effectively compete for the available
oxygen.
Then consider that pure CO and pure O2 burns very slowly if at all. Virtually
the only mechanism to complete the oxidization ( Glassman - Combustion Third
Edition ) of CO ==> CO2 is the "water method".
CO + OH ==> CO2 + H
H + OH ==> H20
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
goto to top and repeat.
This simple reaction accounts for 99% + of the conversion of CO to CO2. It is
important in that fully two thirds of the energy of carbon combustion is
released in the CO ==> CO2 process and that this process occurs slow and late
in the combustion of the fuel. Excess water can and does speed this
conversion - by actively entering into the conversion process thru the above
mechanism.
The peak flame temperature is determined by three factors alone - the energy
present and released, the total atomic mass, and the atomic ratio - commonly
called CHON for Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. The chemical
reactions in combustion leading to peak temperature are supremely indifferent
to pressure. The temperatures and rates of normal IC combustion are
sufficient to cause most of the fuel and water present to be dissociated and
enter into the flame.
As can be seen above, water is most definitily not only not inert but is a
very active and important player in the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel.
Ricardo and others have documented that under certain conditions ( normally
supercharged ) water can replace fuel up to about 50% and develop the same
power output, or that the power output can be increased by up to 50% addition
of water. This conditions were investigated by NACA and others for piston
aircraft engines. It is important to note that these improvements came at the
upper end of the power range where sufficient fuel and air was available to
have an excess of energy that could not be converted to usable pressure in a
timely manner.
As a side note - Volvo recently released some SAE papers documenting the use
of cooled EGR to both reduce detonation and return to a stoic mixture under
boost in the 15 psi range - while maintaining approximately the same power
output. Notice - they reduced fuel and still get the same power output.
When you consider that EGR consists primarily of nitrogen, CO2, and water ( to
the tune of about two gallons formed from each gallon of water burned ), you
might draw the conclusion that it also was not "inert". They peaked their
tests at about 18% cooled EGR - which would work out to about 36% water
injection and got about the same results under similar conditions that the
early NACA research got.