hydrogen powered rotary
01-04-02 | 01:54 AM
#1
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From: southern NJ
hydrogen powered rotary
what do you guys think of the hydrogen powered rotary engine?
i have read stuff on it before, and just ran across this site that mentioned it. i think if it comes to pass in the future, there will be many more cars with WRCE (wankel rotary combustion engines)
any thoughts?
i have read stuff on it before, and just ran across this site that mentioned it. i think if it comes to pass in the future, there will be many more cars with WRCE (wankel rotary combustion engines)
any thoughts?
01-04-02 | 04:17 AM
#2
inteligent extratarestril
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
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From: The Sunny B.O.P, New Zealand
i have seen it described as the only truely 'safe' hydrogen engine because intake, compression and exhuast all happen in different places, there is no chance for anything to ignite back up thru the intake manifold
01-04-02 | 03:06 PM
#4
standard combustion
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 0
From: Twin Cities Minnesota
Well I believe once we hit the hydrogen age of automobiles, we rotary owners may need to convert to hydrogen because of stricter emission laws.
When the fuel-cell age comes, which is less then 10years down the road, a rotary may be the cold-climate option since fuel-cells still take a few minutes to run even in a warm climate. GM and other companies are already working on a reformer process in the vehicle so you can still fill up with gasoline and feed the fuel-cell with hydrogen. A typical combustion engine is 20%efficient. A typical 2010 fuel cell will be like 70%efficent. However there are no hydrogen fuel stations out there. Or a cheap way to store enough for a similar range to gasoline cost effectively in a car yet.
They converted a Miata with a N/A rotary and ended up with ~110hp. This figure could obviously be upped since this was done over 8years ago by Mazda. A newly developed hydrogen rotary is probably capible of much more. A hydrogen rotary would be very clean and not need a convential cat in the exhuast.
When the fuel-cell age comes, which is less then 10years down the road, a rotary may be the cold-climate option since fuel-cells still take a few minutes to run even in a warm climate. GM and other companies are already working on a reformer process in the vehicle so you can still fill up with gasoline and feed the fuel-cell with hydrogen. A typical combustion engine is 20%efficient. A typical 2010 fuel cell will be like 70%efficent. However there are no hydrogen fuel stations out there. Or a cheap way to store enough for a similar range to gasoline cost effectively in a car yet.
They converted a Miata with a N/A rotary and ended up with ~110hp. This figure could obviously be upped since this was done over 8years ago by Mazda. A newly developed hydrogen rotary is probably capible of much more. A hydrogen rotary would be very clean and not need a convential cat in the exhuast.
03-08-04 | 05:54 PM
#5
No... Do it again.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 122
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From: New Zealand
Just for those who might care, I thought this was interesting, some good info, though old lol
Hydrogen Powered Rotaries
Go the rotor! Hopefully this development will make the rotary the emissions free engine for the future.
Does anyone know how far this has come since then, how long do you think it'll be untill we see hydrogen-fuel stations popping up all over the place?
Hydrogen Powered Rotaries
The view from the driver's seat:
Inside the hydrogen car, everything is standard apart from a small pressure instrument - the fuel gauge... Starting the hydrogen car is no different from starting the petrol model, and engine noise sounds familiar too.
... the intake system combines a pre-mix air/fuel system for light load driving... There is also a direct-injection system through a dedicated hydrogen port which opens when the air intake port is closed. This is effective in increasing available power for higher speed driving...
When the fuel pressure gets low, the power drops noticeably and the car slows dramatically. Changing down the gears makes little or no appreciable difference and even with 20 percent pressure available, the car is effectively unable to carry on. Refuelling these prototypes takes about 15 minutes from start to finish.
Inside the hydrogen car, everything is standard apart from a small pressure instrument - the fuel gauge... Starting the hydrogen car is no different from starting the petrol model, and engine noise sounds familiar too.
... the intake system combines a pre-mix air/fuel system for light load driving... There is also a direct-injection system through a dedicated hydrogen port which opens when the air intake port is closed. This is effective in increasing available power for higher speed driving...
When the fuel pressure gets low, the power drops noticeably and the car slows dramatically. Changing down the gears makes little or no appreciable difference and even with 20 percent pressure available, the car is effectively unable to carry on. Refuelling these prototypes takes about 15 minutes from start to finish.
Unlike piston-engines, the rotary engine has separate intake and combustion chambers. This allows the rotary engine to avoid the backfiring and preignition problems that other engines have experienced. The rotor draws the air and hydrogen in as it passes the top of the cycle, then moves the mixture to the lower right and compresses it, where it is ignited to drive the engine.
Does anyone know how far this has come since then, how long do you think it'll be untill we see hydrogen-fuel stations popping up all over the place?
03-08-04 | 09:43 PM
#7
as it is today, to go a mile on hydrogen would cost the
use of enough energy to go 5 miles on gasoline.
by the time you make the hydrogen and compress it
into a usable package to go any distance the energy
used is 5 to 10 times what you will get out of the stored
hydrogen, unless there are some real changes to the
way hydrogen is made and stored I don't think it will
ever be in wide use in cars.
matt
use of enough energy to go 5 miles on gasoline.
by the time you make the hydrogen and compress it
into a usable package to go any distance the energy
used is 5 to 10 times what you will get out of the stored
hydrogen, unless there are some real changes to the
way hydrogen is made and stored I don't think it will
ever be in wide use in cars.
matt
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03-09-04 | 12:14 AM
#9
Rotorhead
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 39
From: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Official: 'Hydrogen Highway' Realistic
Thu Feb 26, 5:05 AM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!
By DON THOMPSON, Associated Press Writer
SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites)'s top environmental aide told state lawmakers the governor's vision of a "hydrogen highway" that would usher in an age of cleaner cars is realistic by 2010, and won't even cost the state much money.
Schwarzenegger pledged to build hydrogen fueling stations every 20 miles along major highways, allowing motorists to buy clean-burning hydrogen-fueled vehicles without fear they will run out of gas.
He chose 2010 because that's when automakers have said such vehicles will be affordable and readily available, said Environmental Protection Secretary Terry Tamminen.
"California does invent the future," Tamminen said. Though there are plenty of unknowns, "there are no show-stoppers. The only area where some of us disagree is on timing."
California Energy Commission member Jim Boyd warned that the cost is too high. And Toyota Motor Co.'s Bill Reinert said that despite a decade of research and development, any promises are premature.
The automotive industry still is years away from developing the smaller, cheaper, more efficient and longer-lasting fuel cells that are needed before consumers will buy many hydrogen-fueled vehicles, Reinert said.
"We're not even close to solving storage technology issues yet," Reinert said. Though he expects technology will develop "dramatically" over the next few years, "we still have significant challenges along the way."
Other witnesses before the Assembly Select Committee on Air and Water Quality said a strong push by the state and federal governments is needed.
S. David Freeman, a top energy aide to former Gov. Gray Davis (news - web sites) who now heads a company involved in hydrogen-powered vehicles, said the state should consider floating more long-term debt to pay for the project. But Tamminen said the cost to the state could be minimal.
Schwarzenegger's proposed network amounts to about 200 fueling stations, a fraction of California's 10,000 retail gasoline stations, Tamminen said.
Twenty-five of those stations will soon be available, and Tamminen projected more can be built by universities, waste conversion stations and automakers at little cost to the state.
Thu Feb 26, 5:05 AM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!
By DON THOMPSON, Associated Press Writer
SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites)'s top environmental aide told state lawmakers the governor's vision of a "hydrogen highway" that would usher in an age of cleaner cars is realistic by 2010, and won't even cost the state much money.
Schwarzenegger pledged to build hydrogen fueling stations every 20 miles along major highways, allowing motorists to buy clean-burning hydrogen-fueled vehicles without fear they will run out of gas.
He chose 2010 because that's when automakers have said such vehicles will be affordable and readily available, said Environmental Protection Secretary Terry Tamminen.
"California does invent the future," Tamminen said. Though there are plenty of unknowns, "there are no show-stoppers. The only area where some of us disagree is on timing."
California Energy Commission member Jim Boyd warned that the cost is too high. And Toyota Motor Co.'s Bill Reinert said that despite a decade of research and development, any promises are premature.
The automotive industry still is years away from developing the smaller, cheaper, more efficient and longer-lasting fuel cells that are needed before consumers will buy many hydrogen-fueled vehicles, Reinert said.
"We're not even close to solving storage technology issues yet," Reinert said. Though he expects technology will develop "dramatically" over the next few years, "we still have significant challenges along the way."
Other witnesses before the Assembly Select Committee on Air and Water Quality said a strong push by the state and federal governments is needed.
S. David Freeman, a top energy aide to former Gov. Gray Davis (news - web sites) who now heads a company involved in hydrogen-powered vehicles, said the state should consider floating more long-term debt to pay for the project. But Tamminen said the cost to the state could be minimal.
Schwarzenegger's proposed network amounts to about 200 fueling stations, a fraction of California's 10,000 retail gasoline stations, Tamminen said.
Twenty-five of those stations will soon be available, and Tamminen projected more can be built by universities, waste conversion stations and automakers at little cost to the state.
03-09-04 | 12:23 AM
#10
Rotorhead
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 39
From: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Originally posted by now
as it is today, to go a mile on hydrogen would cost the
use of enough energy to go 5 miles on gasoline.
by the time you make the hydrogen and compress it
into a usable package to go any distance the energy
used is 5 to 10 times what you will get out of the stored
hydrogen, unless there are some real changes to the
way hydrogen is made and stored I don't think it will
ever be in wide use in cars.
as it is today, to go a mile on hydrogen would cost the
use of enough energy to go 5 miles on gasoline.
by the time you make the hydrogen and compress it
into a usable package to go any distance the energy
used is 5 to 10 times what you will get out of the stored
hydrogen, unless there are some real changes to the
way hydrogen is made and stored I don't think it will
ever be in wide use in cars.
Hydrogen stores about 39 Kw-Hrs/Kg
Gasoline stores about 13 Kw-Hrs/Kg
The only problem is that a Kg of Hydrogen takes up an awful lot of space.
03-09-04 | 03:17 AM
#11
No... Do it again.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Mazda has a hydrogen powered rx-8 which was on display at one of the more recent car shows (I forget which) Tokyo? not sure, they mentioned that the power output wasnt too flash, but what do they expect? (Autocar Mag). Anyway does anyone know more info about this or have any links?
03-14-04 | 09:31 PM
#13
Special Dark
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
From: oklahoma
I can't see storing hydrogen at 5000psi as being acceptable by fed safety regulations and a clever solution to that in the next few years is not likely. The technology to mass produce hydrogen and lower production cost has a good chance to mature if it receives serious govt backing which is yet to come. Hydrogen has too many detracters right now so 2010 is not very realistic. The rotary engine won't be given serious consideration as long as NSU has sole patents to it. So anyone know when their patent runs out?
03-15-04 | 06:13 PM
#15
Rotorhead
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 39
From: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Originally posted by projekt
maybe they could store it as a liquid
maybe they could store it as a liquid
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/informa...n_storage.html
The ***** are pretty interesting.
http://www.powerball.net/
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