Do all bulders of NA rotaries eventually go turbo?
12-12-03, 11:46 AM
#26
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Do all bulders of NA rotaries eventually go turbo?
No, they go v8 and never come back unless it's just for kicks! Why spend thousands when for the same money you can have a much quicker more streetable car with all the low end in the world? Just my .02 cents
No, they go v8 and never come back unless it's just for kicks! Why spend thousands when for the same money you can have a much quicker more streetable car with all the low end in the world? Just my .02 cents
you are an evil evil man.
12-12-03, 03:01 PM
#28
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Originally posted by 12abridgeport
Do all bulders of NA rotaries eventually go turbo?
No, they go v8 and never come back unless it's just for kicks! Why spend thousands when for the same money you can have a much quicker more streetable car with all the low end in the world? Just my .02 cents
Do all bulders of NA rotaries eventually go turbo?
No, they go v8 and never come back unless it's just for kicks! Why spend thousands when for the same money you can have a much quicker more streetable car with all the low end in the world? Just my .02 cents
12-12-03, 05:10 PM
#29
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once my money grows on trees i'm going to have my high-powered turbo car and my ceramic n/a car which will last forever.
edit: i want to add that turbo cars are simple to work with when you've removed all the factory BS. There's really nothing more to deal with than with an N/A.
edit: i want to add that turbo cars are simple to work with when you've removed all the factory BS. There's really nothing more to deal with than with an N/A.
12-12-03, 08:22 PM
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I disagree that v-8 is cheaper, I have to be honest, built far more v-8's than I have a rotaries, I have gotten far more rear wheel hp out of a rotary than most smallblocks could ever dream of for the money, and its time to put to bed that low rpm torque is the only way to make a fast streetable car, if that were so we would all be putting 5.9 litre cummin's in our '7s wouldn't we..
I know of very few 350+ rwhp small blocks that can still make enough vacuum to operate power brakes, could be driven more than 150 km round trip, or get more than 6 miles a gallon, I know of a 400 rwhp rx-7(my own
) that can is still docile enough to drive , has a/c, power brakes, gets 33 mpg on the highway , and I have drive on 1000 km round trips, I think those people that say a 400 rwhp smallblock v-8 is more streetable, have never actually driven one...Max
I know of very few 350+ rwhp small blocks that can still make enough vacuum to operate power brakes, could be driven more than 150 km round trip, or get more than 6 miles a gallon, I know of a 400 rwhp rx-7(my own
) that can is still docile enough to drive , has a/c, power brakes, gets 33 mpg on the highway , and I have drive on 1000 km round trips, I think those people that say a 400 rwhp smallblock v-8 is more streetable, have never actually driven one...Max
12-12-03, 11:15 PM
#32
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I coulden't agree more with you Max. My friend built a 383 chevy smallblock for over 2x's the cost my engine/turbo cost me. He made 486BHP (not rwhp) but has to run 110/92 mix all while getting horrible mileage.
12-13-03, 09:00 AM
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I just finished tuning the efi on another 383 small block chev, that was built by a proff engine builder, with premium components, after much dyno flogging I got 360 rwhp and 418 ft/lbs of torque out of it, nice numbers but I also got more power out of a turbo rotary without any dyno tuning... This 383 also has 22,000 Canadian sunk into it, if I sunk that much money into a turbo rotary, I could have at least 750 rwhp, and probably 500 ft/lbs of streetable power, as that is 3 rotor money easily...On top of that, the car now has a vacuum pump from a diesel truck in it, to keep the brakes working at idle....
LIke your friends motor, I have seen some pretty gnarly dyno numbers on smallblocks, but they have been engine dyno numbers that have been corrected, put them in a car and strap that car down to the rollers, and magically all the car can do is 2-300 rwhp, and run 15's.....
Some people will say, We are comparing apples to oranges, because we are boosting the rotary, the dyno shootout I went to last year, even the blown small blocks never came close to my numbers...Max
LIke your friends motor, I have seen some pretty gnarly dyno numbers on smallblocks, but they have been engine dyno numbers that have been corrected, put them in a car and strap that car down to the rollers, and magically all the car can do is 2-300 rwhp, and run 15's.....
Some people will say, We are comparing apples to oranges, because we are boosting the rotary, the dyno shootout I went to last year, even the blown small blocks never came close to my numbers...Max
12-13-03, 09:11 AM
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I am the guy Piranha mentioned. Yes, I would NEVER go back to NA. ever. Not that I didn't like my car when it was na, because I loved it. But comon, who wouldn't an extra 100hp, with loads of potential?
My NA had header, PS, and CB, cone filter, working 6ports, mild street port, and the free mods. It was alright power wise ran a 16.0 with a really bad launch, but there wasn't much potential left in it, unless I wanted to start throwing big money at it.
It just felt so slow after a ride in a friend's mustang, or turbo DSM. Plus at the time I worked at a Honda dealership, as a driver. I would do dealer trades, and part pickups, and so on. the older V6 accords were quick enough to give my na FC a run for it's money going by seat of the pants. The new body style v6 accord packs 240hp, and makes an NA feel weak and weezy.
by today's standards, face it, the na is not fast. You can go buy a ford taurs, honda accord, honda odyssey (mini van), or nissian altima, that will beat an fc in a dragrace. I am not really into drag racing, but I couldn't stand getting out of a family car, that has more performance than my sports car.
Living in Detroit Michigan, all our roads are streight, flat, and bumpy. A car like an NA fc is really out of it's element. If I lived somewhare that had nice driving roads, I would most likely still be NA. As I could really enjoy more than one dimention of the car.
I really recomend getting a ride in a turbo FC if you drive an NA. There must be a local club.
My NA had header, PS, and CB, cone filter, working 6ports, mild street port, and the free mods. It was alright power wise ran a 16.0 with a really bad launch, but there wasn't much potential left in it, unless I wanted to start throwing big money at it.
It just felt so slow after a ride in a friend's mustang, or turbo DSM. Plus at the time I worked at a Honda dealership, as a driver. I would do dealer trades, and part pickups, and so on. the older V6 accords were quick enough to give my na FC a run for it's money going by seat of the pants. The new body style v6 accord packs 240hp, and makes an NA feel weak and weezy.
by today's standards, face it, the na is not fast. You can go buy a ford taurs, honda accord, honda odyssey (mini van), or nissian altima, that will beat an fc in a dragrace. I am not really into drag racing, but I couldn't stand getting out of a family car, that has more performance than my sports car.
Living in Detroit Michigan, all our roads are streight, flat, and bumpy. A car like an NA fc is really out of it's element. If I lived somewhare that had nice driving roads, I would most likely still be NA. As I could really enjoy more than one dimention of the car.
I really recomend getting a ride in a turbo FC if you drive an NA. There must be a local club.
Last edited by Mark'sMazda; 12-13-03 at 09:28 AM.
12-13-03, 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Maxthe7man
I just finished tuning the efi on another 383 small block chev, that was built by a proff engine builder, with premium components, after much dyno flogging I got 360 rwhp and 418 ft/lbs of torque out of it, nice numbers but I also got more power out of a turbo rotary without any dyno tuning... This 383 also has 22,000 Canadian sunk into it, if I sunk that much money into a turbo rotary, I could have at least 750 rwhp, and probably 500 ft/lbs of streetable power, as that is 3 rotor money easily...On top of that, the car now has a vacuum pump from a diesel truck in it, to keep the brakes working at idle....
LIke your friends motor, I have seen some pretty gnarly dyno numbers on smallblocks, but they have been engine dyno numbers that have been corrected, put them in a car and strap that car down to the rollers, and magically all the car can do is 2-300 rwhp, and run 15's.....
Some people will say, We are comparing apples to oranges, because we are boosting the rotary, the dyno shootout I went to last year, even the blown small blocks never came close to my numbers...Max
I just finished tuning the efi on another 383 small block chev, that was built by a proff engine builder, with premium components, after much dyno flogging I got 360 rwhp and 418 ft/lbs of torque out of it, nice numbers but I also got more power out of a turbo rotary without any dyno tuning... This 383 also has 22,000 Canadian sunk into it, if I sunk that much money into a turbo rotary, I could have at least 750 rwhp, and probably 500 ft/lbs of streetable power, as that is 3 rotor money easily...On top of that, the car now has a vacuum pump from a diesel truck in it, to keep the brakes working at idle....
LIke your friends motor, I have seen some pretty gnarly dyno numbers on smallblocks, but they have been engine dyno numbers that have been corrected, put them in a car and strap that car down to the rollers, and magically all the car can do is 2-300 rwhp, and run 15's.....
Some people will say, We are comparing apples to oranges, because we are boosting the rotary, the dyno shootout I went to last year, even the blown small blocks never came close to my numbers...Max
12-13-03, 11:34 AM
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I have a EFI V8 in a Datsun 240Z.... I averaged 26mpg at something higher than 80mph on the 2000 miles from CA to IA. It gets about 23-24 in town. It is very low maintenance, easy to work on, obviously pretty fast without any additional mods. I am going a different route (RX7, probably turbo at some point) for the feel and experience, not because it is an inherently better way to go. I want to rev out the motor, and not be limited to 4500 or 5000rpm. (my intake is not meant for perf, or I wouldnt be getting that gas mileage) I know of several people in my datsun forum with the LS1 swap who get around 400hp and 30mpg, in a very streetable, daily driver type of car. Those cars can obviously be modded to make significantly more horse than that, without sacrificing reliability. Front-to-rear weight ratios are great, handling is un-impaired, and parts are easily come by. The only significant reasons NOT to do this in my view would be the "feel", or the owners preference to not go "Hybrid", leaving the drive train closer to stock mechanicals. (good reasons in their own right, btw) When you come right down to it.... I dont think a good EFI V8 is all that much more Hybrid than the T2 swap.... they both require different "blocks", fuel management, harness, tranny, drive shaft, rear end, and exhaust. If the Turbo setup is significantly modded for performance, it is more complicated, and probably more money as well.
My personal feelings are that a V8 in a small car Feels different, and is not a rev monster. Otherwise, for parts availability, ease of maintenance, cost, and Torque(!), I would go V8. I have been in several 400hp+ small turbo cars, and it rocks when the little fan kicks in.... but the right V8 rocks from lower in the RPM range. Basically, they are just completely different approaches, for different expectations.
My personal feelings are that a V8 in a small car Feels different, and is not a rev monster. Otherwise, for parts availability, ease of maintenance, cost, and Torque(!), I would go V8. I have been in several 400hp+ small turbo cars, and it rocks when the little fan kicks in.... but the right V8 rocks from lower in the RPM range. Basically, they are just completely different approaches, for different expectations.
12-13-03, 01:29 PM
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newer smallblocks make power more efficiently. an ls1 with bolt-ons makes nearly 400 to the wheels...but ifyou take some ***-old carbie 383 then yeah, i would imagine that the mileage would suck and the power would be sub-par.
that said i think the only pistons in an RX-7 should be in the brakes.
that said i think the only pistons in an RX-7 should be in the brakes.
12-13-03, 02:14 PM
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I really would like to see an LS1 put 400 down to wheels, I really think thats not gonna happen.. The 383 (stroked 350 chev)I have been working on is not a carby, its multipoint efi, with aluminium heads(cnc ported with machined combustion chambers), scat crank, and all the goodies, right down to hydrualic roller cam....And when compared to some other small blocks locally, its one of the more potent ones around....
With the cam and the heads neccasary to make 400 to the wheels out of a smallblock, the thing isn't gonna get more tha 6 mpg, lets not lie to ourselves here, we all know why the muscle car died in 1972...
In highschool I did have a dodge pickup with a 380 rwhp 318 smallblock in it, that I built myself, so I am no stranger to high horspower small blocks and what it takes to make out power out of them, that engine idled at 1500 rpm, made ZERO vacuum, got 3 mpg and wouldn' start below 60 deg F, streetable, well, I drove it to school and back and ran the 1/4 with it, my Dad bought the truck from me when I was 18 and part of the deal was that I yank that motor and replace it with a stock 318 so he could actually drive it around, he didn't find the 3000 rpm launch speed and the ensuing wheel spin the least bit amusing..
I currently own a 485 hp powered 440 cid truck, streetable, well yes, by my standards, my friends probably would disagree with me, but 6 mpg in city, power brakes function (8" vac), anywhere as docile as a turbo rotary, no, not even close...Max
With the cam and the heads neccasary to make 400 to the wheels out of a smallblock, the thing isn't gonna get more tha 6 mpg, lets not lie to ourselves here, we all know why the muscle car died in 1972...
In highschool I did have a dodge pickup with a 380 rwhp 318 smallblock in it, that I built myself, so I am no stranger to high horspower small blocks and what it takes to make out power out of them, that engine idled at 1500 rpm, made ZERO vacuum, got 3 mpg and wouldn' start below 60 deg F, streetable, well, I drove it to school and back and ran the 1/4 with it, my Dad bought the truck from me when I was 18 and part of the deal was that I yank that motor and replace it with a stock 318 so he could actually drive it around, he didn't find the 3000 rpm launch speed and the ensuing wheel spin the least bit amusing..
I currently own a 485 hp powered 440 cid truck, streetable, well yes, by my standards, my friends probably would disagree with me, but 6 mpg in city, power brakes function (8" vac), anywhere as docile as a turbo rotary, no, not even close...Max
Last edited by Maxthe7man; 12-13-03 at 02:19 PM.
12-14-03, 12:07 PM
#39
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Ok, i really don't know what kind of stuff you guys are smoking but a forced small block can max out at 1200hp. Of course, that's no ordenary small block and i'm not even going to be getting into that kind of stuff.
There is a guy here in Florida with a twin turbo mustang pushing about 15 psi making around 500 rwhp. His turbos don't even look that big at all, it's just two of them. That and a 2750 lbs LX body can woup up on any car on the street.
For that being said, what is the fastest street car in the world, a v8, what is the fastest car period, a v8, why do they have different classes for v8's and other cars ususally, because they are faster even in road racing. Are you saying that all the top fuel drag racers are stupid and spend so much money on their huge monster v8's when they could've built a huge rotary and be quicker? Or why do formular drivers don't use a rotary instead of thier v8's, they would've been so much quicker and more reliable! Stupid people, spending millions on their cars when their answer to power is right here with the rotors.
Max, you are talking about old v8's that you used to have. Like technology never reaches v8's plus turbo rotaries are not that great on fuel mileages themselves. Basically you got to feed the horses. Also you are trying to compare a truck to a sports car...duh.
Even a v6 can make more power than a rotary, so a v8 wouldn't even come close. Also the 1st car to break into 6's was a 4 cyl not a rotary.
Just some food for thought...
Rotors are fun little engines but they are not the baddest **** on earth.
There is a guy here in Florida with a twin turbo mustang pushing about 15 psi making around 500 rwhp. His turbos don't even look that big at all, it's just two of them. That and a 2750 lbs LX body can woup up on any car on the street.
For that being said, what is the fastest street car in the world, a v8, what is the fastest car period, a v8, why do they have different classes for v8's and other cars ususally, because they are faster even in road racing. Are you saying that all the top fuel drag racers are stupid and spend so much money on their huge monster v8's when they could've built a huge rotary and be quicker? Or why do formular drivers don't use a rotary instead of thier v8's, they would've been so much quicker and more reliable! Stupid people, spending millions on their cars when their answer to power is right here with the rotors.
Max, you are talking about old v8's that you used to have. Like technology never reaches v8's plus turbo rotaries are not that great on fuel mileages themselves. Basically you got to feed the horses. Also you are trying to compare a truck to a sports car...duh.
Even a v6 can make more power than a rotary, so a v8 wouldn't even come close. Also the 1st car to break into 6's was a 4 cyl not a rotary.
Just some food for thought...
Rotors are fun little engines but they are not the baddest **** on earth.
Last edited by 12abridgeport; 12-14-03 at 12:12 PM.
12-14-03, 01:50 PM
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I know a guy that has an ls1 camero that put 390 to the wheels, all motor. I am not sure on his mods, as he is a friend of a friend, but I know he has heads, and cam. I'll ask him to post his mod list. and dyno sheet.
Last edited by Mark'sMazda; 12-14-03 at 02:18 PM.
12-14-03, 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by 12abridgeport
Ok, i really don't know what kind of stuff you guys are smoking but a forced small block can max out at 1200hp. Of course, that's no ordenary small block and i'm not even going to be getting into that kind of stuff.
There is a guy here in Florida with a twin turbo mustang pushing about 15 psi making around 500 rwhp. His turbos don't even look that big at all, it's just two of them. That and a 2750 lbs LX body can woup up on any car on the street.
For that being said, what is the fastest street car in the world, a v8, what is the fastest car period, a v8, why do they have different classes for v8's and other cars ususally, because they are faster even in road racing. Are you saying that all the top fuel drag racers are stupid and spend so much money on their huge monster v8's when they could've built a huge rotary and be quicker? Or why do formular drivers don't use a rotary instead of thier v8's, they would've been so much quicker and more reliable! Stupid people, spending millions on their cars when their answer to power is right here with the rotors.
Max, you are talking about old v8's that you used to have. Like technology never reaches v8's plus turbo rotaries are not that great on fuel mileages themselves. Basically you got to feed the horses. Also you are trying to compare a truck to a sports car...duh.
Even a v6 can make more power than a rotary, so a v8 wouldn't even come close. Also the 1st car to break into 6's was a 4 cyl not a rotary.
Just some food for thought...
Rotors are fun little engines but they are not the baddest **** on earth.
Ok, i really don't know what kind of stuff you guys are smoking but a forced small block can max out at 1200hp. Of course, that's no ordenary small block and i'm not even going to be getting into that kind of stuff.
There is a guy here in Florida with a twin turbo mustang pushing about 15 psi making around 500 rwhp. His turbos don't even look that big at all, it's just two of them. That and a 2750 lbs LX body can woup up on any car on the street.
For that being said, what is the fastest street car in the world, a v8, what is the fastest car period, a v8, why do they have different classes for v8's and other cars ususally, because they are faster even in road racing. Are you saying that all the top fuel drag racers are stupid and spend so much money on their huge monster v8's when they could've built a huge rotary and be quicker? Or why do formular drivers don't use a rotary instead of thier v8's, they would've been so much quicker and more reliable! Stupid people, spending millions on their cars when their answer to power is right here with the rotors.
Max, you are talking about old v8's that you used to have. Like technology never reaches v8's plus turbo rotaries are not that great on fuel mileages themselves. Basically you got to feed the horses. Also you are trying to compare a truck to a sports car...duh.
Even a v6 can make more power than a rotary, so a v8 wouldn't even come close. Also the 1st car to break into 6's was a 4 cyl not a rotary.
Just some food for thought...
Rotors are fun little engines but they are not the baddest **** on earth.
As you say, it takes gas to make power, therefore a truck or car, who cares what the engine is in, its still makeing the power, that truck wieghed less than alot of "popular" american muscle cars...
As for turbo rotaries, I get 33 mpg, the problem with a n/a v-8 being built to that level, is that it maintains that built personality through the driving range, where as a turbo is more or less turned off with your right foot, a 400 rwhp small block will never acheive 33 mpg... Nice smooth low rpm idle, enough vacuum tu run power brakes, and big power, not in v-8 land, unless you go pure cubic displacment, but then you are again living with those cid''s at all times again, why turn 500 cid's at idle?
They may not be the baddest **** on earth however, but as far as stock block , stock internal motors go, they are the one of the best, for holding together under power..
When you consider that every manafacture in the world has put billions into R&D in the recip motor, the piston motors aren't that impressive output wise when compared to the rotary, where basically only one OEM(mazda) followed it through to mass production then into motorsport...Do top fuel cars run any production parts, not one, why compare a 13bt to a keith black hemi then?...
For the price it takes to make 400 rwhp a 13b is pretty hard to beat...Max
Last edited by Maxthe7man; 12-14-03 at 03:39 PM.
12-14-03, 03:46 PM
#42
Originally posted by 12abridgeport
Ok, i really don't know what kind of stuff you guys are smoking but a forced small block can max out at 1200hp. Of course, that's no ordenary small block and i'm not even going to be getting into that kind of stuff.
There is a guy here in Florida with a twin turbo mustang pushing about 15 psi making around 500 rwhp. His turbos don't even look that big at all, it's just two of them. That and a 2750 lbs LX body can woup up on any car on the street.
For that being said, what is the fastest street car in the world, a v8, what is the fastest car period, a v8, why do they have different classes for v8's and other cars ususally, because they are faster even in road racing. Are you saying that all the top fuel drag racers are stupid and spend so much money on their huge monster v8's when they could've built a huge rotary and be quicker? Or why do formular drivers don't use a rotary instead of thier v8's, they would've been so much quicker and more reliable! Stupid people, spending millions on their cars when their answer to power is right here with the rotors.
Max, you are talking about old v8's that you used to have. Like technology never reaches v8's plus turbo rotaries are not that great on fuel mileages themselves. Basically you got to feed the horses. Also you are trying to compare a truck to a sports car...duh.
Even a v6 can make more power than a rotary, so a v8 wouldn't even come close. Also the 1st car to break into 6's was a 4 cyl not a rotary.
Just some food for thought...
Rotors are fun little engines but they are not the baddest **** on earth.
Ok, i really don't know what kind of stuff you guys are smoking but a forced small block can max out at 1200hp. Of course, that's no ordenary small block and i'm not even going to be getting into that kind of stuff.
There is a guy here in Florida with a twin turbo mustang pushing about 15 psi making around 500 rwhp. His turbos don't even look that big at all, it's just two of them. That and a 2750 lbs LX body can woup up on any car on the street.
For that being said, what is the fastest street car in the world, a v8, what is the fastest car period, a v8, why do they have different classes for v8's and other cars ususally, because they are faster even in road racing. Are you saying that all the top fuel drag racers are stupid and spend so much money on their huge monster v8's when they could've built a huge rotary and be quicker? Or why do formular drivers don't use a rotary instead of thier v8's, they would've been so much quicker and more reliable! Stupid people, spending millions on their cars when their answer to power is right here with the rotors.
Max, you are talking about old v8's that you used to have. Like technology never reaches v8's plus turbo rotaries are not that great on fuel mileages themselves. Basically you got to feed the horses. Also you are trying to compare a truck to a sports car...duh.
Even a v6 can make more power than a rotary, so a v8 wouldn't even come close. Also the 1st car to break into 6's was a 4 cyl not a rotary.
Just some food for thought...
Rotors are fun little engines but they are not the baddest **** on earth.
Why do they all use V8s? because V8s are the easiest piston engine to make power out of (best engineered? I doubt it). Why don't they use a rotary? because rotarys don't have nearly the same amount of R&D pistons have and they take more brains to radicaly mod .
12-14-03, 05:12 PM
#43
ummm... i have seen a top fuel drag rail with a 20bbp and a turbo run a 8.4
http://autospeed.com.au/cms/article....estions&A=0176
this is news of a 6.9 run
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2003...trevvedup.html
and as for scca. the rx7 fits in the GT1-2, ITS, and EP the mustang V-8 is AS T1-2 and some years are in the GT1.
and also. how long have piston engines been around to be made fast? now compare that to the rotary and tell me what has more power and reliability for its age?
http://autospeed.com.au/cms/article....estions&A=0176
this is news of a 6.9 run
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2003...trevvedup.html
and as for scca. the rx7 fits in the GT1-2, ITS, and EP the mustang V-8 is AS T1-2 and some years are in the GT1.
and also. how long have piston engines been around to be made fast? now compare that to the rotary and tell me what has more power and reliability for its age?
Last edited by nillahcaz; 12-14-03 at 05:16 PM.
12-14-03, 06:57 PM
#45
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Originally posted by Maxthe7man
Now you are changing the parameters of the comparison, to force fed v-8's versus force fed rotaries, most poeple who are gonna do a v-8 swap are doing to get away from forced induction,as they percieve boost as some black art that takes rocket scientists to make power..You are also comparing classes and races, that have never included a rotary powered vehicle to ever push any rotary R&D into such classes.. In other words you are barking up the wrong tree..
As you say, it takes gas to make power, therefore a truck or car, who cares what the engine is in, its still makeing the power, that truck wieghed less than alot of "popular" american muscle cars...
As for turbo rotaries, I get 33 mpg, the problem with a n/a v-8 being built to that level, is that it maintains that built personality through the driving range, where as a turbo is more or less turned off with your right foot, a 400 rwhp small block will never acheive 33 mpg... Nice smooth low rpm idle, enough vacuum tu run power brakes, and big power, not in v-8 land, unless you go pure cubic displacment, but then you are again living with those cid''s at all times again, why turn 500 cid's at idle?
They may not be the baddest **** on earth however, but as far as stock block , stock internal motors go, they are the one of the best, for holding together under power..
When you consider that every manafacture in the world has put billions into R&D in the recip motor, the piston motors aren't that impressive output wise when compared to the rotary, where basically only one OEM(mazda) followed it through to mass production then into motorsport...Do top fuel cars run any production parts, not one, why compare a 13bt to a keith black hemi then?...
For the price it takes to make 400 rwhp a 13b is pretty hard to beat...Max
Now you are changing the parameters of the comparison, to force fed v-8's versus force fed rotaries, most poeple who are gonna do a v-8 swap are doing to get away from forced induction,as they percieve boost as some black art that takes rocket scientists to make power..You are also comparing classes and races, that have never included a rotary powered vehicle to ever push any rotary R&D into such classes.. In other words you are barking up the wrong tree..
As you say, it takes gas to make power, therefore a truck or car, who cares what the engine is in, its still makeing the power, that truck wieghed less than alot of "popular" american muscle cars...
As for turbo rotaries, I get 33 mpg, the problem with a n/a v-8 being built to that level, is that it maintains that built personality through the driving range, where as a turbo is more or less turned off with your right foot, a 400 rwhp small block will never acheive 33 mpg... Nice smooth low rpm idle, enough vacuum tu run power brakes, and big power, not in v-8 land, unless you go pure cubic displacment, but then you are again living with those cid''s at all times again, why turn 500 cid's at idle?
They may not be the baddest **** on earth however, but as far as stock block , stock internal motors go, they are the one of the best, for holding together under power..
When you consider that every manafacture in the world has put billions into R&D in the recip motor, the piston motors aren't that impressive output wise when compared to the rotary, where basically only one OEM(mazda) followed it through to mass production then into motorsport...Do top fuel cars run any production parts, not one, why compare a 13bt to a keith black hemi then?...
For the price it takes to make 400 rwhp a 13b is pretty hard to beat...Max
Plus i don't know how you can get 33 mpg on a 400 rwhp car, if my '91 n/a never got that much. Also there are some people on this forum with 2nd gen turbos on their 12a's getting about 10 mpg. And i don't know what you say but 400 rwhp on stock internals is not that reliable at all, sooner or later it will happen...oops...what was that...i think that was an apex seal... Why do you think a lot of 13b rew's don't go past 60k?
As far as stock block, it's 4g63's, gn's, and supra motors that are better for holding power. 13b's are somewhere at the bottom of the list when compared to those engines. Lets be realistic here and not stuck up.
Also you can have all of those luxuries that you were talking about on a v8 car, like nice idle, big power, vacuum...etc if you were to turbocharge it also. The only thing is it's going to make more power at less boost, last longer, and scare other cars with it's sound.
As for price in making a 13bt into a 400rwhp car compared to others...lets check it out. I used to have a turbo setup except it was carbed so i know it had to cost you at least $4k. Take the same mustang and put 4k into it, oh you are going to be making well over 400 rwhp. In fact, the whole twin turbo kit costs around 3k. Do a search on yahoo there is another guy there with that setup pushing 10-11 psi and making 500hp with 23 mpg on highway, actually i'll even provide you with the link http://www.twinturbostang.com/
12-14-03, 07:00 PM
#46
Senior Member
Originally posted by setzep
I liked how he turned it around and started talking about turbo V-8's giving up on 13b turbo vs n/a V-8.
I liked how he turned it around and started talking about turbo V-8's giving up on 13b turbo vs n/a V-8.
12-14-03, 07:48 PM
#48
Freedoms worth a buck o'5
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
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I hit 400 rwhp and have a little over 10k(canadian) in my car, thats including the price of the car, wheels, some styling stuff etc etc, custom catback, fmic, e6k, turbo, motor,kevlar clutch, yada yada...
I get 33 mpg, by knowing how to tune a rotary with a haltech...
I get 400 rwhp, and reliable 400 rwhp, by also, knowing how to tune a 13b with a haltech.. Keeping a rotary together, is pretty easy actually, just tune it right..
The dyno sessions I have been to, actually prove that displacement isn't always king, being able to move the same amount of air and fuel in a small motor, with less rotational mass , will always make better numbers than a larger motor, moving the same amount of air and fuel, its just physics there... And turboing a v-8 takes away the point of a v-8 swap for most, and that is power at amospheric conditions, without the magic of boost tuning..
I have tuned and built enough v-8's and 13b's to date, to know what makes power, and what is easier...
Here is just his engine.... Lets put a price tag on this then compare the budgets...
Engine:
302 block bored .020" over (305 ci.)
TRW low compression forged pistons (#2305-20); 8.7:1 calculated compression ratio
ARP bolts/studs throughout
Clevite bearings, Speed Pro Moly Rings
DSS main cap girdle
Edelbrock Performer aluminum heads (1.9/1.6 valves)
Edelbrock Performer intake
BBK 65 mm Throttle Body and EGR Spacer
Motorsport F303 cam
Crane Double Roller Timing Chain
Fel Pro Loc-Wire gaskets
Motorsport SFI Approved Harmonic Balancer
Edelbrock high flow water pump
Now lets see the engine build for 400 rwhp of 13b
Stock 13b(j-spec used) 1000.00 Canadian
Die grinder and carbide bits 150.00
mmm okk. I'll inlcude orings
200.00 Canadian
so just for the block lets say
1350.00 Canadian.... I can't even buy the heads on the v-8 for that .....Add to that yet, the turbo kit, the maching shop bill, the fuel mods, etc etc Now if I blew his budget on a rotary build up , where would I be, 600? 700? 800hp?........ Whats cheaper again?...Max
I get 33 mpg, by knowing how to tune a rotary with a haltech...
I get 400 rwhp, and reliable 400 rwhp, by also, knowing how to tune a 13b with a haltech.. Keeping a rotary together, is pretty easy actually, just tune it right..
The dyno sessions I have been to, actually prove that displacement isn't always king, being able to move the same amount of air and fuel in a small motor, with less rotational mass , will always make better numbers than a larger motor, moving the same amount of air and fuel, its just physics there... And turboing a v-8 takes away the point of a v-8 swap for most, and that is power at amospheric conditions, without the magic of boost tuning..
I have tuned and built enough v-8's and 13b's to date, to know what makes power, and what is easier...
Here is just his engine.... Lets put a price tag on this then compare the budgets...
Engine:
302 block bored .020" over (305 ci.)
TRW low compression forged pistons (#2305-20); 8.7:1 calculated compression ratio
ARP bolts/studs throughout
Clevite bearings, Speed Pro Moly Rings
DSS main cap girdle
Edelbrock Performer aluminum heads (1.9/1.6 valves)
Edelbrock Performer intake
BBK 65 mm Throttle Body and EGR Spacer
Motorsport F303 cam
Crane Double Roller Timing Chain
Fel Pro Loc-Wire gaskets
Motorsport SFI Approved Harmonic Balancer
Edelbrock high flow water pump
Now lets see the engine build for 400 rwhp of 13b
Stock 13b(j-spec used) 1000.00 Canadian
Die grinder and carbide bits 150.00
mmm okk. I'll inlcude orings
200.00 Canadian
so just for the block lets say
1350.00 Canadian.... I can't even buy the heads on the v-8 for that .....Add to that yet, the turbo kit, the maching shop bill, the fuel mods, etc etc Now if I blew his budget on a rotary build up , where would I be, 600? 700? 800hp?........ Whats cheaper again?...Max
12-14-03, 09:09 PM
#49
Senior Member
I have very mixed feelings about rotaries & v8's and today was a very boring day so i didn't mean to come out all like that, i was just screwing around. However, all this 400 rwhp stock turboII talk made me crave one...damnt it. Only fuel injected this time though, i can't believe i'm even thinking about it!!
12-15-03, 01:43 AM
#50
Information Regurgitator
I don't think it would take that much to get 350rwhp out of an LS1.The last LS1 powered Z28s were rated at 325hp at the crank.Take 20% for driveline loos thats 260 at the wheels.You need to get 90 more whp to have 350 to the wheels.Now I know that's a pretty good amount but completely acheivable and still have enough vacuum to run power brakes.