Apex seal write up in this months issue of Turbo magazine
10-21-03, 08:37 PM
#1
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Apex seal write up in this months issue of Turbo magazine
on page 52 there is a nice write up on the different types of apex seals on the market with opinions from some tuners across the united states.
Most is already know on the forum but the article is pretty nice.
I don't have a scanner but maybe someone can post it.
Most is already know on the forum but the article is pretty nice.
I don't have a scanner but maybe someone can post it.
10-30-03, 10:12 AM
#2
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it didnt teach anything i didnt learn on forums , but its really good that theyre trying. i'm pretty happy the rx8 came with the renesis , its reviving interest in our spinner engines.
10-30-03, 10:25 AM
#3
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Agree....it would be nice to have it for reference on the forum IMHO.
The talk about "chattering" was interesting as my rear housing showed this problem.
Makes me think about pre-mixing.
The talk about "chattering" was interesting as my rear housing showed this problem.
Makes me think about pre-mixing.
10-30-03, 12:52 PM
#4
WingmaN
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They did happen to talk about the new seal that www.rotaryaviation.com sells did they? Those are the ones that they were selling for $138.00 a set with springs.
10-30-03, 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by 7racer
Agree....it would be nice to have it for reference on the forum IMHO.
The talk about "chattering" was interesting as my rear housing showed this problem.
Makes me think about pre-mixing.
Agree....it would be nice to have it for reference on the forum IMHO.
The talk about "chattering" was interesting as my rear housing showed this problem.
Makes me think about pre-mixing.
I don't know that I'd take too much creed in what they say though. They pretty much blew it w/ me when they said something to the effect of factory seals being "one piece"...
10-30-03, 04:45 PM
#7
BDC Motorsports
We'll be using a set of these heat-treated, mystery alloy 2-piece apex seals from Rotary Aviation here fairly soon. From what I've been told, they take a rather long while to break in and are more suited for new rotor housings, but we'll see how they turn out.
B
B
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10-30-03, 04:56 PM
#8
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Gotham put a set in a motor that is being finished for Alex (from New Jersey) and David Sanchez bought a set but I am not sure when he will put them in.
I am thinking about putting a set in my *next*
project but most likely I will buy a new set of housings for it.
It will be a pport NA.
I am thinking about putting a set in my *next*
project but most likely I will buy a new set of housings for it. It will be a pport NA.
10-30-03, 05:25 PM
#9
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Originally posted by BDC
We'll be using a set of these heat-treated, mystery alloy 2-piece apex seals from Rotary Aviation here fairly soon. From what I've been told, they take a rather long while to break in and are more suited for new rotor housings, but we'll see how they turn out.
B
We'll be using a set of these heat-treated, mystery alloy 2-piece apex seals from Rotary Aviation here fairly soon. From what I've been told, they take a rather long while to break in and are more suited for new rotor housings, but we'll see how they turn out.
B
Scott
10-30-03, 08:12 PM
#10
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally posted by Scalliwag
They did happen to talk about the new seal that www.rotaryaviation.com sells did they? Those are the ones that they were selling for $138.00 a set with springs.
They did happen to talk about the new seal that www.rotaryaviation.com sells did they? Those are the ones that they were selling for $138.00 a set with springs.
10-30-03, 10:50 PM
#11
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Scalli,
in the article they talk about
1) factory seals
2) hurley
3) atkins
4) aluminum filled carbon seals (which are actually lighter than ceramics)
5) ceramics
6) the 2 vs 3mm debate
7) and apex seal springs.
XS engineering opinion in the article was that 3mm tend to chatter where as 2 are less likely to at engine speeds over 8000 rpm.
This chattering or fluttering causes damage to the rotor housing and seals eventually leading to a crack and loss of compression and horsepower.
Someone mentioned to me that premixing helps with the chatter...ceramic seals seem to be less prone to this according to the article
in the article they talk about
1) factory seals
2) hurley
3) atkins
4) aluminum filled carbon seals (which are actually lighter than ceramics)
5) ceramics
6) the 2 vs 3mm debate
7) and apex seal springs.
XS engineering opinion in the article was that 3mm tend to chatter where as 2 are less likely to at engine speeds over 8000 rpm.
This chattering or fluttering causes damage to the rotor housing and seals eventually leading to a crack and loss of compression and horsepower.
Someone mentioned to me that premixing helps with the chatter...ceramic seals seem to be less prone to this according to the article
Last edited by 7racer; 10-30-03 at 10:55 PM.
10-31-03, 07:47 AM
#12
Originally posted by 7racer
Scalli,
in the article they talk about
1) factory seals
2) hurley
3) atkins
4) aluminum filled carbon seals (which are actually lighter than ceramics)
5) ceramics
6) the 2 vs 3mm debate
7) and apex seal springs.
XS engineering opinion in the article was that 3mm tend to chatter where as 2 are less likely to at engine speeds over 8000 rpm.
This chattering or fluttering causes damage to the rotor housing and seals eventually leading to a crack and loss of compression and horsepower.
Someone mentioned to me that premixing helps with the chatter...ceramic seals seem to be less prone to this according to the article
Scalli,
in the article they talk about
1) factory seals
2) hurley
3) atkins
4) aluminum filled carbon seals (which are actually lighter than ceramics)
5) ceramics
6) the 2 vs 3mm debate
7) and apex seal springs.
XS engineering opinion in the article was that 3mm tend to chatter where as 2 are less likely to at engine speeds over 8000 rpm.
This chattering or fluttering causes damage to the rotor housing and seals eventually leading to a crack and loss of compression and horsepower.
Someone mentioned to me that premixing helps with the chatter...ceramic seals seem to be less prone to this according to the article
10-31-03, 09:40 AM
#14
WingmaN
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I notice what few write-ups you do find have several inaccuracies whenever they try to get technical.
They need to let some of the real rotary people proof read their article and make changes before they publish it.
That is what tech-advisors are for and they are usually will to read an article and advise for free.
They need to let some of the real rotary people proof read their article and make changes before they publish it.
That is what tech-advisors are for and they are usually will to read an article and advise for free.
10-31-03, 12:19 PM
#17
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Scalli,
the aluminum seals were special seals made I think by racing beat...I don't have the article infront of me. However, there stated that these were for high reving non-turbo charged engines. I will take another look at the article when I get home.
Bill, in regards to the carbon statement...you aren't referring to the stock seals are you. As far as I know those are NOT alumunim filled
Marvelspeed stated that they confused the atkins and hurley somewhat but in general the articles "opinions" were the current general consensus of the different available seals
the aluminum seals were special seals made I think by racing beat...I don't have the article infront of me. However, there stated that these were for high reving non-turbo charged engines. I will take another look at the article when I get home.
Bill, in regards to the carbon statement...you aren't referring to the stock seals are you. As far as I know those are NOT alumunim filled
Marvelspeed stated that they confused the atkins and hurley somewhat but in general the articles "opinions" were the current general consensus of the different available seals
10-31-03, 12:41 PM
#19
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Originally posted by Scalliwag
I am thinking about putting a set in my *next* project but most likely I will buy a new set of housings for it.
It will be a pport NA.
I am thinking about putting a set in my *next*
project but most likely I will buy a new set of housings for it. It will be a pport NA.
10-31-03, 12:55 PM
#20
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Originally posted by 88IntegraLS
My SP na engine has 900 miles on it using these seals, and I have had no problems. The engine usually starts right up. I used preworn housings on this rebuild.
My SP na engine has 900 miles on it using these seals, and I have had no problems. The engine usually starts right up. I used preworn housings on this rebuild.
10-31-03, 03:05 PM
#21
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Originally posted by 7racer
Scalli,
the aluminum seals were special seals made I think by racing beat...I don't have the article infront of me. However, there stated that these were for high reving non-turbo charged engines. I will take another look at the article when I get home.
Bill, in regards to the carbon statement...you aren't referring to the stock seals are you. As far as I know those are NOT alumunim filled
Marvelspeed stated that they confused the atkins and hurley somewhat but in general the articles "opinions" were the current general consensus of the different available seals
Scalli,
the aluminum seals were special seals made I think by racing beat...I don't have the article infront of me. However, there stated that these were for high reving non-turbo charged engines. I will take another look at the article when I get home.
Bill, in regards to the carbon statement...you aren't referring to the stock seals are you. As far as I know those are NOT alumunim filled
Marvelspeed stated that they confused the atkins and hurley somewhat but in general the articles "opinions" were the current general consensus of the different available seals
all the carbon seals are made bymazda, or a mazda subcontractor.
the renisis seals are made in germany of all places
mike
10-31-03, 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by RX794
That article has some inaccurate information, what a surprise, lol.
That article has some inaccurate information, what a surprise, lol.
After all I am new to the whole rotor thing. I have only been in to it for about a year.
10-31-03, 04:44 PM
#23
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Carbon race seals: Same construction as some of the very early rotaries. DO have al in them are very light, very good for high revs, don't last long and useless for boost.
Think 9000RPM bridgeport.
Aside on the renesis seals. There is a new surface treatment process that deposits a ceramic coating on metals in germany. Suspect this is the reason why the renesis seals are german made.
2nd aside. Was informed that the hurley seal is based upon the design that mercedes used in their rotary project. Not confirmed.
Bill
Think 9000RPM bridgeport.
Aside on the renesis seals. There is a new surface treatment process that deposits a ceramic coating on metals in germany. Suspect this is the reason why the renesis seals are german made.
2nd aside. Was informed that the hurley seal is based upon the design that mercedes used in their rotary project. Not confirmed.
Bill
10-31-03, 08:01 PM
#24
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Yup,
like bill said the aluminum filled carbon seals are what was referred to in the article.
Anyone with the seals from rotaryaviation weigh them in comparision to stock seals or any of the other aftermarket ones?
Can you tell if there is a "ceramic" coating or what type of metal it is?
like bill said the aluminum filled carbon seals are what was referred to in the article.
Anyone with the seals from rotaryaviation weigh them in comparision to stock seals or any of the other aftermarket ones?
Can you tell if there is a "ceramic" coating or what type of metal it is?
10-31-03, 08:22 PM
#25
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Mine looked like plain metal without any special coating. I haven't compression tested the engine because I am lazy (studying) and have been 100% happy with the shortblock after it was assembled. Wish I could say the same for the stock manifold and engine management . .