i know u can use the gas to steer the rear but what if u dont have enough power to make the rear slip...

couldn't this form of braking be used to upset traction or help drift the rear end around if the car starts understreer. rather then making it around the turn by slowing down more or risk locking up your front tires....

 

You're getting into car set up now. You can set up the suspension to be balanced in a steady state turn and then no matter how much power you are able to apply it will make the car oversteer. That is, if you aren't overdriving the front wheels and they are already slipping. If that is the case it will take a ton of power to getthe rear to step out farther than the front. If you need to do that you are going to be slower than somebody who carries the proper speed through the turn and lets the front tires rotate the car. You should be adding power as you unwind the steering wheel, not before.

I don't quite understand your second statement.

 

I agree with your example jgrewe. I would stay away from drifting if possible unless you want slow lap times Mightymite. Practice braking in a straight line before turning the wheels for the apex and everything else will come easier later when you get some experience on the track. In your second statement I think you are referring to threshold braking?

 

the 2nd statement your understeering going into a turn and front tires are at the braking limit anymore brake the front would lock up....

so in theory u could use the clutch to tranfer more weight to the front on a fwd to help tranfer weight off the rear to help it swing around

or in rwd u could use it to cause the rear to lock or slow down faster then the front and help the rear come around

i think this would work on a sharp 90 if you over shoot

i know drifting isnt the fastest way around the track but there are some times i see where it could be usefull. such as a sharp turn that your going to hot into and the only way u can make it around is to drift and scub speed....

i know there are faster ways around a track. i know hoe to heel toe.... im just tryn to figure out if this technique has any use

only real negetive i see so fair is that a clutch cost more the tires or brakes so y not just use the brakes

 

The reason for the understeer is their is already weight on the front tires so you get the "pushing" effect. So in theory you would have to use the brakes and the clutch to help slow the car down for more tire adhesion or grip to make the turn. For a FWD you can turn the wheel all you want but you will still go straight unless you gain control of some sort of the situation by slowing down. If I was you I would practice on just getting some nice, safe, and clean lines around the track first. I am also an amateur racer and I will be attending my second school in April. So what I am saying is I am trying to share with you what they teach in club racing schools. Hope this help you out a bit. Also you cannot use the clutch to transfer weight to my knowledge. Steering, braking, accelerating, and decelerating all help with the transfer of weight. Also knowing your car setup can help too. Maybe some other forum members can help me collaborate on this theory for you.

 

Use heel and toe to downshift in corners. Use the brakes for what they are intended. All you are doing is "dragging" the back end through the corner, which will increase your chances of spinning out.

Also, trail braking has nothing to do with left foot braking. A little knowledge is dangerous, so listen to those who know and you'll do fine...

 

The simplest way to describe under steer is you are asking the front tires to do more than they can. All you can do in that case is to unwind the steering and/or lift off the throttle a little. Once the tires have grip you can start over trying to get the car to rotate. Did I mention this all can happen in under a second!

I'll repeat, you use the brakes to slow the car, never push in the clutch unless you need to shift. Just get that whole thing out of your heads.

As for how the throttle can be used to balance the car in a turn. Think of this, you're in second gear and you drive up to 6000rpm then lift off the gas. The car lurches and nose dives when you lift. Now, let's say your are in fourth gear and do the same thing. You are going a lot faster at 6000rpm but the car will still "nose dive" when you lift, just not as much. Working the throttle in a turn is the same thing. If the car is balanced you will feel the car react to those throttle inputs by turning less or more.

Remember this, the tires are selfish. They will only give you 100%. If you ask them to give you more by going to fast in a turn or trying to accelerate too much before the car is rotated they will make your lap times slow.

Also, another basic. Slow into the turn, fast out of it. Don't go to your deep braking point every time. Use it for making passes. Hit the brakes a little earlier, get the car slowed down, get it rotated early and then get on the gas as you unwind the steering. This lets you start the next straight earlier so you will have higher speed at the end of it.

I've done a lot of instructing, I even worked for Mazda on the Zoom Zoom Live tour the year they had a little class period and in car help in the RX8's. The other year I helped run the Speed6 course with Stu Hayner.

 

What happened to Zoom Zoom live? They didn't have one this year.

 

LOL..I commend you for trying new things, and for posting up. You've got some thick skin, and the right attitude in my book!

I honestly haven't been 100% able to figure out what you are suggesting here, but Im pretty sure that it won't amount to the fastest way around a track. That being said if you look at F1 telemetry every driver has his idiosyncrasies and they all do things a little different. If you keep trying you just might find something that works for you to produce great lap times.

The other side of the coin is that there are tons of great books out there to illustrate tried and tested techniques that can help to get you ahead of the curve. I would suggest "going faster" by the skip barber school. Try the techniques in there and master them. If you feel after all of that, that your way is still better, then maybe it is for you.

Coming into a corner I downshift through the gears once im in the braking zone, heel and toeing the whole way. I dont skip gears, and I double clutch ( dont blip with clutch in). I trail brake going in, and coming out of the corner I upshift using the clutch.

I can upshift without the clutch, and I can make my downshifting process a lot easier, but personally neither route works for me well. The full process puts me in the mindset to approach a corner correctly, and the mechanical empathy of my process keeps my budget out of control.

 

It was as close as getting the contract signed, right down to the wire to get things organized, and Mazda bailed. I never heard why, most likely budget issues. They had been very enthusiastic about the response they were getting and even wanted to expand it to some other markets, then nothing... Oh well. I should make some calls and see if there is anything on the horizon for this year.

 

Hey Jgrewe were you the ride along instructor in the RX-8s last time it was down in Miami at the Hialeah horse track? I remember chatting to one of the instructors who told me he raced a 2nd gen, while I was still finishing building mine.

 

It was probably me. I don't know if any of the other guys that weekend raced an FC. One of the guys ended up winning the show "Set Up" last season but he ran a Honda in NASA IIRC.

 

left foot braking can fall under the category of trail braking. ive seen fwd cars use this to hunker down the front end for quicker turn in while still keeping your speed up; granted its not exactly trail braking as a definition but i consider it to fall into that category. if ur in second gear going round a second gear corner why not use left foot braking as you would use trail braking?

 

you can use trail braking with either foot......the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

speakn of leftfoot/rightfoot trail braking

the other day while i was driven up to a stop sign i was doing my heal toe when i looked down and it was more like lil toe/ big toe then i was like damn i got big *** monkey feet

but i was just stopn by the thread to see if it was dead yet....

thank you for your input

 

Stop de-clutching. I strongly detest such an easy thing to **** up and cause a crash. It sounds like you're coasting into the corner, putting the car in a lower gear, and slowly re-engaging the clutch without any throttle at all to slow the car down. But in all honesty, it really sounds as if you've never actually been on a track or even to an autocross.

Yes, de-clutching will slow the car. Is it smart? No. You can easily mess it up and spin out and into the wall or somebody else. So stop it.

If you're too rebellious to learn the proper techniques, then you should probably stop until you can admit to yourself that it's all been done before - it's all been laid out for you to learn and you can get your ego around the fact that your technique is flawed beyond repair.

Heel-and-toe downshifting isn't even that difficult... does this country no longer possess basic hand/eye coordination?

 

hey mighty u might want to try a skid pad, u can make your own if u got water and some cones and a big open parking lot, that way u can get use to controlling the car with the accelerator, see if u can do a lap with understeer then a lap with over steer, its just a good thing to know and practice, after that start working on your lines, once u have a good undertanding and being able to apple a good racing line then start worrying about braking/ trail braking *which sounds like what u want to do* well hope that helps some

 

Whatever.
Do it only if your going straight but this will create alot of heat on your flywheel and transmission. Also you will wear out your Clutch Disc and flywheel VERY FAST if used during a race or on a track, if you plan to do more than 3 minutes of driving.
Downshifting without blipping the throttle or Rev matching in a turn will upset your weight balance some of the weight on the front tires and causing the rear to lock traction.Sounds like a drift technique I would use but instead of feathering the clutch out I just kick it up and immediately give it throttle while drifting out of the turn. When attacking a turn fast, you want to balance the weight evenly then throttle through the turn and full out.
My 2 cents

 

I saw this and said What the f***
jgrewe is right.

 

omg wtf is right lol


congrats to you all for having the patience to go through all that!! you are better men than I...

To anyone that does what this guy described read some books, go to a racing school and FOR GOD'S SAKE don't practice anymore bad habits!!

O and when you do spin make sure it's no where near me! lol