hey guys,

i went to road atlanta for the 2nd time last weekend (previous time was in june) after changing a few things on the car. i know i am slow (especially turn 1 and turn 12) and i didn't get a chance to get an instructor this time. i was also letting off during the back straight, not pulling in 5th gear.

i'd like to get some feedback and just see what some of you more experienced guys think.

the car is setup as follows:

precision 6262 turbo, haltech, fuel, etc. car makes about 380whp (dynojet) at 11.5psi
stance GR+pro coilovers 12k front 10k rear, front rebound set to about 1/2 stiff, rear full soft.
hankook RS3 tires, running about 38 psi front, 34 psi rear (hot)
stock sway bars (with RB sway bar reinforcement)
stock brakes with carbotech XP10 front pads, hawk HT10 rear pads, ate super blue fluid

my fuel map was stupid rich in the high rpm / low boost area, so i couldn't go part-throttle in several areas, which you'll see in the video.



also, here's a video where i had a near spinout/wreck, but managed to save it.
edit:time linking isn't working. skip to 13:00 to see the near spin.

 

You are looking really good out there Jacob! Your line is good. Great save as well. I think it was just a little too much throttle on some tires that were getting tired. Maybe there was a little something on track. Who knows. AutoX potentially saved you and your car. That is a skill that is not learned on the track. You didn't lift and corrected like a boss. Awesome awesome car control! I can't tell you how many times I've seen that scenario end differently when ppl have lifted. I know two RX-8 guys/turn 5 that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm seriously pumped after seeing that.

I would say:
- stay all the way right as you exit the esses to better set yourself up for 5. It's not a big deal now, but as you build speed it will become a space issue. I see you are doing it most of the time.
-Don't lift in 9. It's another muscle memory thing as you build speed. Be prepared to move back track left if you crest the hill and see a slow moving vehicle. Once you are straight again, then start your braking. Again, I'm sure you know this stuff, but it's another scenario you don't want to have to figure out when you are at full song/150mph going through 9. Your body reverts to it's lowest level of training. If you've built that muscle memory, you'll move track left.
-drive you line. It's hard to do when you have someone in front of you as we generally tend to focus on them when we drive on the street.
-You are doing all the right things. You are working your way into things and building speed, braking harder/later, etc... as you are comfortable. You are smart not to push it on the back straight. Nothing to gain necessarily and a lot to lose. I'm sure you've had someone tell you already, but I like to go through scenarios in my head as I drive the warm up lap. If this happens here, what am I going to do... where am I going to go? Where can I go? It's amazing how much of the track and safety areas people never even realize is there.

You've got a lot of car on your hands. I think you may start running into heat issues as you continue to progress and stay in the higher RPM's longer + summer time weather.

BTW, I will apologize for my grammar as I know you have an English degree. My wife is an English teacher and is always making corrections for me

 

hah I'm impressed you were shifting without even a working tach lol . I guess you're used to it by the sound .


if you dont mind me asking when does the turbo spool what rpms I mean.

 

tem, when it's that cold outside (intake temps would start around 60-70*F) it would hit 11psi by about 3800rpms.

 

That was a nice save. If you had lifted you certainly would have gone around.
Conversely, giving up more on the right hander leading to the exit would have allowed a better exit from the left hander on the straight.

I noticed much more confidence toward the end of the video. As you drove to the braking zone about 20mph faster in the downhill left hander than you had previously.

There was one upshift to that seemed a little abrupt ( about the 12:30 mark I think). Keep in mind that on a slippery surface that shift could unsettle the car.

Looked like you were having fun

 

Hook your tach up man.

Get your left hand up on the wheel. More toward 10 o-clock. In the 2nd vid, when you had you moment, it was down near 8. You get much more torque from your shoulders when you have your hands up v. down. You hands should be above the spoke of the wheel. Around the fat part of the wheel that feels just right in your hand.

 

Killer save! Takes serious marbles to stay in it during those.
I would've been backwards

 

The exact opposite would be ideal. You don't want your hands high using the bigger muscles which are slow to react you want them low using your finer tuned muscles.

If I asked you how much something weighed you'd turn your hand palm up which is also where you want it on the wheel so you are better able to measure traction and make a quick correction. You want your quick fast moving muscles to react not your big slow muscles...........torque, seriously, come on man

People give me **** all the time about my hands moving all over the wheel and I just laugh because it's silly to keep my hands in a numb position if I have the option of presetting for each turn to keep my hands low. I tell my students 8 and 4 ideally but 9 and 3 are OK but NEVER hold the top of the wheel or use your shoulder/bigger muscles.

The other thing I hear constantly is never lift.... WTF of course you lift you're loosing grip because you are asking those poor tires to go forward and side ways at the same time and if pressed too hard they say eff you so for the best/quickest results you would BOTH open the wheel and lift slowly (not comletely unless you are in BIG trouble then it would be a slow complete lift combined wth a full open wheel move until the slide slowed followed by a quick return to center and then you may have tp catch it again LOL) off the gas pedal and then slowly return power.

Nice save and nice job keeping your hands low for that quick reaction

 

the tach is hooked up, ludwig. the solder joints are broken-ish and it goes in and out.

i was honestly thinking you'd get on me for my car cutting out into the 9's AFRs at low boost high rpm i guess i got off easy this time. (that's what she said)

 

i actually was attempting to slowly lift during that "moment," then i got the wheel snapped back into place and let out the rest of the way and almost soiled my pants.

also, interesting comments about the hand position. ludwig, i have never heard the 10:00 thing before. it does also make sense to keep my thumbs off of the spokes.

 

brent, thank you for the nice response.

about the temps, i know it was only about 60*F outside, but the oil temp never got above 180 (which is a little cold for the 20w50 oil i was running). i was expecting it to get hotter. you may be right about the hotter ambient temps. we will see! we are going to do barber again in April (you should come), and hopefully it's a little warmer outside.

turn 9 is just too damn scary with this much power! this time out on the track i actually noticed the car felt a little "light" when at the top of 4th (130mph) and i was just hesitant to throw it into 5th and ream it out to 150. at RA last time i was running about 30whp less and hammered all the way through 5th to about 145 and didn't have a lightening feeling, but this time i felt slightly uneasy. i did remove my stock spoiler, if that makes a difference. i didn't think it provided any noticeable downforce. does it?

it is a lot of car. it's ~380whp dynojet, and i'm overpowering my 225s for sure. i'm not driving fast to begin with, but i think i just need some more tire. i am purchasing some 18x9.5 +45 RPF1s w/ 265s (RE11s) for a very very good deal as we speak, and i have a buddy possibly giving me a great deal on some brand new 275 R888s that he bought new and never used (still have stickers on them). my roommate ran a 1:45 in his E46 M3 with TC Kline coilovers, intake, exhaust, and 255/18 RS3s. it is an awesome/capable car, but i was expecting to be right with him in the FD. just goes to show that the driver mod matters more than all others maybe i can keep up with him at Barber. i'm a little more confident there

i hung out with your buddy don yuan a little last weekend. very nice guy.

and hey, don't worry; i'd rate your grammar/posting about an 8.5-9 out of 10! you're pretty good

 

re: hand position

Driver coaches will tell you 9 and 3. I went back and looked at Bondurant's book and it says 9 and 3. Problem is, outside of a select few wheels and most formula car wheels, there is usually a spoke in the way at 9 and 3. When you try to put you hands over/around the spokes, it doesn't allow your fingers and thumb to properly grip the wheel. This doesn't allow proper feedback and can lead to driver fatigue.

When given the option of 10 and 2, over the spokes, and 8 and 4, under the spokes, I'll always go over. When your hands are under the wheel you lose all the torque from your shoulders and it's all wrists and forearms. This leads to fatigue and mistakes. You also lose dexterity and limit the amount of rotation you can put on the wheel when your hands are at the bottom. That is assuming you're not shuffling your hands.

 

I like my hands low, arms relaxed, elbows in and that's not going to happen if my hands are on top of the wheel.

I want to use my quicker reacting forearm and bicep muscles that of course can't provide the torque of my shoulder muscles but I'm not lifting weights I'm moving a steering wheel and my reaction time is all that really matters and I will react quicker with my hands low.

Hold your arms at 10 and 2 now bring your elbows in next to your body and hold your hands palm up at 8 and 4. You'll quickly discover which is more comfortable and would cause less fatigue and of course being comfortable and not stressed should also lead to the best reaction.

 

If it works for you, great. But you're not going to find a single pro driver or driver coach that does not tell you holding the bottom of the wheel is incorrect.

 

Probably the most recognized most successive road racing driver, doing what works, keeping his hands low (especially the saving/opening hand):


I could post up vids of Leh Keen, James Clay, Patrick Long etc..etc..

You want your hands low, elbows in and your entire body as relaxed as possible PERIOD and again that won't happen with your elbows out and your hands on top of the wheel. I could care less about the spokes on the steering wheel or where my thumbs are in relation to it I'm not driving a 1940s race car.

 

Here's a recent vid of me driving VIRs full course:
I move my hands A LOT because I generally preset for just about every corner LOL.

Please post up a video of you driving and I bet you'll see you keep your hands lower than you think (especially your saving/opening hand).

 

Patrick long with hands like butter (sooo soft)

 

I love this one:

 

 

When you can run consistent low 2 minute lap times around VIR Full I'll start taking driving advice from you. Fritz has his merits and I think just about everyone knows it, just like you know your **** when it comes to ECU's and wiring. Yeah maybe his driving style isn't what most consider traditional, but he's not suggesting you to shuffle the wheel like he does either. The videos Fritz just posted are ALL professional drivers (minus his own) and a few of them coach as well. Patrick Long is one of my favorite drivers actually, amazing talent. Are you just re-typnig something you've read or is this from first hand experience? Fritz made great points backed up by examples....

On a side note, nice save at turn 5, that could have ended badly!

-Dan

 

Dan, I'll put the closet full of trophies I've won and the track records as a driver up against anyone on this board. Are you jumping on a bandwagon here, or have you actual experience behind the wheel of a racecar in actual wheel-to-wheel competition?

I'll say it again, if it works for you great. I'm happy for ya.

Sorry for the mucking up your thread Jacob.

 

You win you're the best driver with the best hand position

Seriously though as mentioned the biggest thing to consider is just being relaxed with soft hands and upper body so you can get a good sense of what's happening and I'm sure we can agree with that.

Cheers!

 

Wow, lot of fun in this thread... Here's a driver with a hand position similar to what Chris mentioned. I don't think I could drive like that, but it works for him. Given my steering wheel, my hands are closer to what Patrick Long is doing; being able to rest the thumbs in the top groove and hold the sides of the wheel. Granted, my seating position is not as close so my arms are much more stretched. I'm sure if I had to do races as long as Mr. Long, I'd have to change that.

IMO, there is no right hand position as it's more of what works for each driver. However, there are definitely wrong hand positions (i.e. stuff like the 'under-grab').

 

Edit.

I can't agree that hand position isn't important but certainly each driver has their own style and as Chris mentioned if it works, well it works.

 

No one said it wasn't important.