April Fastrack: SCCA seeking input on moving FD from ASP to BSP
03-22-10 | 05:51 PM
#1
April Fastrack: SCCA seeking input on moving FD from ASP to BSP
Also the RX-8 from BSP to CSP which makes sense.
Here is the link:
http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...april-solo.pdf
The **** is seeking member input regarding a group of reclassifications which are currently in a preliminary evaluation
stage. These potential changes are as follows:
- Move from ASP to BSP: Mazda RX7 (’93-’95), Porsche 911 non-turbo, Porsche 911 Club Sport, Porsche Carrera 2/4,
Porsche 914/6, Porsche 924 turbo and n/a, Porsche 944 turbo and n/a, Porsche 968
- Move from BSP to CSP: BMW M Coupe and Roadster, BMW Z3, Datsun/Nissan Z cars, Honda S2000, Mazda RX8
- Move from CSP to DSP: Mercedes 190 (’84-’93), Audi TT
Having raced with the BSP/now SM Showcase Mitsubishi Evo in Detroit/Saginaw Region I can't say the move is a lot better. It is a start to getting the FD classed with like cars though.
Jeff
Here is the link:
http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...april-solo.pdf
The **** is seeking member input regarding a group of reclassifications which are currently in a preliminary evaluation
stage. These potential changes are as follows:
- Move from ASP to BSP: Mazda RX7 (’93-’95), Porsche 911 non-turbo, Porsche 911 Club Sport, Porsche Carrera 2/4,
Porsche 914/6, Porsche 924 turbo and n/a, Porsche 944 turbo and n/a, Porsche 968
- Move from BSP to CSP: BMW M Coupe and Roadster, BMW Z3, Datsun/Nissan Z cars, Honda S2000, Mazda RX8
- Move from CSP to DSP: Mercedes 190 (’84-’93), Audi TT
Having raced with the BSP/now SM Showcase Mitsubishi Evo in Detroit/Saginaw Region I can't say the move is a lot better. It is a start to getting the FD classed with like cars though.
Jeff
03-23-10 | 03:18 PM
#2
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,359
Likes: 14
From: Grand Rapids Michigan
I'd be happy with any of those proposed moves from BSP to CSP except for the S2000. Those cars are damned fast with a driver who knows what he's doing.
I mean, for Pete's sake! I've only got 1100 cc's to work with here!
.
I mean, for Pete's sake! I've only got 1100 cc's to work with here!
.
03-23-10 | 03:53 PM
#3
B-Stock autocrosser
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: Charlottesville, VA
The RX-8 has no business being in BSP, let alone CSP. Top RX-8 builds have only made around 220whp with maybe 150-160 wtq. Remember this is a car that's similar in weight/dimensions to an E36 BMW (325/328). The BMW makes similar power but much more torque. The RX-8 has a better suspension. From thrust curves JohnV tabulated using dyno values from a DSP BMW, DSP ITR, and a top build RX-8 (running a 30K Motec system), the RX-8 belongs in DSP.
These other cars would be slaughtered in CSP. Even the S2000. The top CSP miatas are very highly developed and extremely lightweight.
The cars listed in this proposal are ALL also-rans in BSP (S2000 probably has the best chance), so why even move them to CSP? CSP has been faster than BSP at nationals for the last 5+ years. CSP is also THE most subscribed SP class. Why mess with a class that's working?
Okay, I'm stepping down from my soapbox now...
03-24-10 | 11:23 AM
#4
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,359
Likes: 14
From: Grand Rapids Michigan
I had no intention of writing a letter. Its really not all that important to me, as I usually compare my results to all classes, not just CSP. I'll race against anyone who's willing to show up.
03-24-10 | 11:35 AM
#5
In my region BSP is pretty busy with Evos and STi's cranking out good times. ASP happens to be quite thin, so if I moved "down" to BSP I would see much stiffer competition.
I have no input on the change. My car is not fully prepared to SP limits, not even close, and my budget doesn't allow more than one set of used race tires per season. So it's hard for me to say whether my classing is appropriate or not.
Dave
I have no input on the change. My car is not fully prepared to SP limits, not even close, and my budget doesn't allow more than one set of used race tires per season. So it's hard for me to say whether my classing is appropriate or not.
Dave
03-24-10 | 01:02 PM
#6
B-Stock autocrosser
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: Charlottesville, VA
I posted this on RX8club, and it might be worthwhile to post it here:
An FD RX-7 in SP trim will be around the same power & weight as a Solstice GXP. Both cars share a similar a-arm suspension design, and could run similar sized rubber. I see these cars being very close in SP trim, and the GXP was moved down from ASP to BSP within the last 2 years or so.
With regards to competitiveness, there's a thread on sccaforums which discussed the FD's competitiveness in ASP: http://sccaforum.com/forums/1/147565/ShowThread.aspx
McKee makes some great comments in the thread, and I've quoted a few below:
You can make 375ish rwhp on stock turbos at about 16psi. More boost than that and you are just generating heat. I'm not sure I'd go to huge tires since in ASP you'd be stuck with the stock 4.1 rear gear. With 285/18's (shortest big tire) and a 8500rpm redline you go 75mph in 2nd. Bigger tires would take you close to 80mph, which wouldn't be the best for off the corner grunt.
Not sure if the new rules would allow the wastegate to be ported. Creep is a problem at elevated boost levels and can make the turbo transition point abrupt.
Expect weight to be in the low-mid 2600's with SP rules. Competitive with a Z06? Probably some of the time, though I wouldn't want the stock gears.
-Andy
Btw, here's the dyno of graph of McKee's RX-7 when his engine was still in ASP trim (undergoing conversion to SM2/SSM):
Link:http://www.siastuning.com/SMspecs.htm
An FD RX-7 in SP trim will be around the same power & weight as a Solstice GXP. Both cars share a similar a-arm suspension design, and could run similar sized rubber. I see these cars being very close in SP trim, and the GXP was moved down from ASP to BSP within the last 2 years or so.
With regards to competitiveness, there's a thread on sccaforums which discussed the FD's competitiveness in ASP: http://sccaforum.com/forums/1/147565/ShowThread.aspx
McKee makes some great comments in the thread, and I've quoted a few below:
Originally Posted by boxboy
You can make 375ish rwhp on stock turbos at about 16psi. More boost than that and you are just generating heat. I'm not sure I'd go to huge tires since in ASP you'd be stuck with the stock 4.1 rear gear. With 285/18's (shortest big tire) and a 8500rpm redline you go 75mph in 2nd. Bigger tires would take you close to 80mph, which wouldn't be the best for off the corner grunt.
Not sure if the new rules would allow the wastegate to be ported. Creep is a problem at elevated boost levels and can make the turbo transition point abrupt.
Expect weight to be in the low-mid 2600's with SP rules. Competitive with a Z06? Probably some of the time, though I wouldn't want the stock gears.
-Andy
Originally Posted by boxboy
You should ask Dan Chadwick what he thinks after running his in ASP for awhile, and now prepping to SM2. Tire is not really the problem, gearing still is. I think a well prepped car could be competitive, but would be an A- car for the class. That's compared to a Z06. Given some of the other cars coming into the class like the S/C Elise, that might shift it down more.
Originally Posted by boxboy
Weight --- mid 2600's is reasonable to expect given ASP allowances. As mentioned, you need to run probably 5/8 of a tank or more of gas to avoid starve. That's a big deal when the tank is ~20gals. When I went to a 5gal fuel cell (legal in SM2), I figure I saved 100lbs of weight out of the car. Wheels and tires you will actually gain weight over a stock prepped car.
Power --- 350whp and 300tq is not unreasonable on stock turbos. I made in the 350-370whp range on bone stock turbos and motor, though it was not the most fun maintaining that system. Here's an old old link with some dyno sheets in it, including mine...http://www.siastuning.com/SMspecs.htm Note the power jump when the second turbo comes on, not the easiest thing to deal with.
Tires --- when I originally ran the car I was on 285's all around with the 4.33 rear gear (not legal in SP), and part of the reason for the 285's was keeping the gearing as short as possible. In retrospect, were I doing this again, I'd try taking the gearing hit and running a 315 in the rear just to try and make sure all the power was being used and grip through the corners was better (more speed maintenance).
All that said, when I ripped out all the vacuum lines and solenoids to put on a single turbo, that was a happy day.
-Andy M.
Power --- 350whp and 300tq is not unreasonable on stock turbos. I made in the 350-370whp range on bone stock turbos and motor, though it was not the most fun maintaining that system. Here's an old old link with some dyno sheets in it, including mine...http://www.siastuning.com/SMspecs.htm Note the power jump when the second turbo comes on, not the easiest thing to deal with.
Tires --- when I originally ran the car I was on 285's all around with the 4.33 rear gear (not legal in SP), and part of the reason for the 285's was keeping the gearing as short as possible. In retrospect, were I doing this again, I'd try taking the gearing hit and running a 315 in the rear just to try and make sure all the power was being used and grip through the corners was better (more speed maintenance).
All that said, when I ripped out all the vacuum lines and solenoids to put on a single turbo, that was a happy day.
-Andy M.
Originally Posted by boxboy
To answer the question on competitiveness, I'd think a full prepped car could be in the hunt sometimes, but I'd probably pick a S/C Elise or Z06 before it. I think that same car with short gears and some motor work would do better in SM2, relatively.
-Andy M.
-Andy M.
Link:http://www.siastuning.com/SMspecs.htm
10-31-11 | 10:53 PM
#7
The FD is still in ASP but some of competition has moved up to SSP:
http://www.scca.com:8080/assets/11-f...k-nov-solo.pdf
ITEM 21) Reorganize Appendix A listings as follows (classes DSP, ESP, and FSP are unchanged):
Street Prepared Class Super (SSP)
Chevrolet
Corvette (‘97-’04) (C5 Chassis)
Corvette (‘05-’11) (C6 Chassis)
Dodge
Viper
Elva
Courier
Ferrari
355
360
Dino 206 & 246 (all)
F430 (all)
Ford
GT
Griffith
(all)
Lamborghini
Gallardo (2003-11)
Lotus
7 & 7A
Elan (RWD)
Elan M100 (FWD, all)
Europa (all)
Elise, Exige, & Exige S (‘05-’11)
Elite 2+2 & Elcat
Esprit (4-cyl, all)
Esprit (V8)
Morgan
V8 all
+4 (2138cc, all)
Nissan
GT-R (R35)
Porsche
911 Turbo (AWD) ‘01-’11
911 GT2 (996 & 997, all)
911 GT3 (996 & 997, all)
Tesla
Roadster (‘08-’11)
TVR
4-cyl & 6-cyl (all)
V8 (all)
Sports cars over 2.0L not otherwise classified. (See section 15.1.C for update/backdate limitations)
Street Prepared Class A (ASP)
BMW
128 & 135 (‘08-’11)
328 & 335 (‘06-’11)
Z4 35i & 35is (Coupe & Roadster)
Z8
Bricklin
DeLorean
DeTomaso SCCA FasTrack News November 2011 Page 23
Mangusta (all)
Pantera (all)
Dodge
Stealth Turbo
Ferrari
250 (non-LM)
275
308 Coupe & Spider
330
365 Daytona GTB & GTC
348
Jaguar
E-type (all)
Mazda
RX7 (‘93-’95)
Mercedes Benz
CLK 320 & CLK 32 AMG
Mitsubishi
Lancer Evolution XIII & IX (‘03-’07)
Lancer Evolution X & Ralliart (‘08-’11)
3000GT Turbo
Nissan
370Z
Pontiac & Saturn
Solstice GXP & Sky Redline
Porsche
Boxster & Cayman (all)
911 Turbo ‘76-’89
911 Turbo (964)
911 Turbo (993)
911 (996 & 997)
Shelby
Cobra 289
Subaru
Impreza WRX STI (‘04-’07)
Impreza GT, WRX, & WRX Sti (‘08-’11)
Sunbeam
Tiger 260 & 289
Toyota
MR2 ‘91-’95 (All)
Supra Turbo (‘93.5-’98)
http://www.scca.com:8080/assets/11-f...k-nov-solo.pdf
ITEM 21) Reorganize Appendix A listings as follows (classes DSP, ESP, and FSP are unchanged):
Street Prepared Class Super (SSP)
Chevrolet
Corvette (‘97-’04) (C5 Chassis)
Corvette (‘05-’11) (C6 Chassis)
Dodge
Viper
Elva
Courier
Ferrari
355
360
Dino 206 & 246 (all)
F430 (all)
Ford
GT
Griffith
(all)
Lamborghini
Gallardo (2003-11)
Lotus
7 & 7A
Elan (RWD)
Elan M100 (FWD, all)
Europa (all)
Elise, Exige, & Exige S (‘05-’11)
Elite 2+2 & Elcat
Esprit (4-cyl, all)
Esprit (V8)
Morgan
V8 all
+4 (2138cc, all)
Nissan
GT-R (R35)
Porsche
911 Turbo (AWD) ‘01-’11
911 GT2 (996 & 997, all)
911 GT3 (996 & 997, all)
Tesla
Roadster (‘08-’11)
TVR
4-cyl & 6-cyl (all)
V8 (all)
Sports cars over 2.0L not otherwise classified. (See section 15.1.C for update/backdate limitations)
Street Prepared Class A (ASP)
BMW
128 & 135 (‘08-’11)
328 & 335 (‘06-’11)
Z4 35i & 35is (Coupe & Roadster)
Z8
Bricklin
DeLorean
DeTomaso SCCA FasTrack News November 2011 Page 23
Mangusta (all)
Pantera (all)
Dodge
Stealth Turbo
Ferrari
250 (non-LM)
275
308 Coupe & Spider
330
365 Daytona GTB & GTC
348
Jaguar
E-type (all)
Mazda
RX7 (‘93-’95)
Mercedes Benz
CLK 320 & CLK 32 AMG
Mitsubishi
Lancer Evolution XIII & IX (‘03-’07)
Lancer Evolution X & Ralliart (‘08-’11)
3000GT Turbo
Nissan
370Z
Pontiac & Saturn
Solstice GXP & Sky Redline
Porsche
Boxster & Cayman (all)
911 Turbo ‘76-’89
911 Turbo (964)
911 Turbo (993)
911 (996 & 997)
Shelby
Cobra 289
Subaru
Impreza WRX STI (‘04-’07)
Impreza GT, WRX, & WRX Sti (‘08-’11)
Sunbeam
Tiger 260 & 289
Toyota
MR2 ‘91-’95 (All)
Supra Turbo (‘93.5-’98)
Trending Topics
11-01-11 | 08:18 AM
#8
A step in the right direction, though, I would still have a hard time trying to build a competitive ASP car knowing that I'm stuck with the stock internals for the block, turbo, and diff.
11-01-11 | 09:55 AM
#9
11-22-11 | 08:56 PM
#10
What are the chances for the 2nd Gen Turbo in BSP? Cars in new BSP below
Street Prepared Class B (BSP)
Audi
TT (1.8T, FWD & Quattro)
TT (3.2L, Quattro)
Quattro Turbo Coupe
BMW
Z3M Coupe, Z3M Roadster & Z3 (6-cyl)
M3 (E36 chassis, all)
M3 (E46 chassis)
Z4M Coupe, Z4M Roadster & Z4 30i
Chevrolet
Corvette (‘53-’54)
Corvette (‘55-’57)
Corvette (‘58-’62)
Corvette (‘63-’67)
Corvette (‘68-’82)
Corvette (‘84-’96) (all)
Chrysler
Crossfire & Crossfire SRT6
Honda
S2000 (All)
Mazda
MazdaSpeed Miata
RX-7 Turbo (‘86-’92)
RX-8
Nissan & Datsun
240Z, 260Z, 280Z
280ZX & 280ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo (‘84-’89)
300ZX Turbo (‘90-’96)
350Z
Pontiac
Fiero (V6)
Firebird Firehawk SLP (‘90-’92) (3rd gen, 383cid)
Firebird Firehawk SLP (‘93-’02) (4th gen, 383cid)
Porsche
911 ‘65-’89
911 (964 & 993)
911 (non-turbo, NOC)
914/6 (all)
924 (all incl. Turbo)
944 (all incl. Turbo)
928
968
Saleen
Mustang S281E & Mustang (NOC)
Triumph
TR-8
Street Prepared Class B (BSP)
Audi
TT (1.8T, FWD & Quattro)
TT (3.2L, Quattro)
Quattro Turbo Coupe
BMW
Z3M Coupe, Z3M Roadster & Z3 (6-cyl)
M3 (E36 chassis, all)
M3 (E46 chassis)
Z4M Coupe, Z4M Roadster & Z4 30i
Chevrolet
Corvette (‘53-’54)
Corvette (‘55-’57)
Corvette (‘58-’62)
Corvette (‘63-’67)
Corvette (‘68-’82)
Corvette (‘84-’96) (all)
Chrysler
Crossfire & Crossfire SRT6
Honda
S2000 (All)
Mazda
MazdaSpeed Miata
RX-7 Turbo (‘86-’92)
RX-8
Nissan & Datsun
240Z, 260Z, 280Z
280ZX & 280ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo (‘84-’89)
300ZX Turbo (‘90-’96)
350Z
Pontiac
Fiero (V6)
Firebird Firehawk SLP (‘90-’92) (3rd gen, 383cid)
Firebird Firehawk SLP (‘93-’02) (4th gen, 383cid)
Porsche
911 ‘65-’89
911 (964 & 993)
911 (non-turbo, NOC)
914/6 (all)
924 (all incl. Turbo)
944 (all incl. Turbo)
928
968
Saleen
Mustang S281E & Mustang (NOC)
Triumph
TR-8
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