Then I guess you haven't read much, take a hop on over to the SE section for a certain tuning event. That aside, it's a valid question. I'm not trying to justify anything deceitful, I just wanted to know what he would've done in that case. He still would have had panels, that certainly wouldn't have been black, that weren't originally what he gave to Jason. If he had given him a part that was broken, told him to fix it and cover it, should Jason have rebroken the part to give back to him so that it was in the same condition as when he first sent it? What would've happened if Jason had scuffed the surface of the panels so that the epoxy would've had a better bonding surface, but Phil wanted them back anyway? Yes, it's deceitful to try to cover up the fact that the panels aren't tan, I'm not arguing that at all. What I'm arguing is that this was an aborted project. You can't ask someone to take materials and parts, try to craft that into something, have it not work, and then say, "Ok, now give me all of my stuff back in it's original condition."

 

Maybe not, but your sure can say, "Ok, now give me all of my stuff back." Which hasn't been done.

Look, I run a small lawn care business on the side just for extra FD money and if a customer wants their super knee-high grass cut and I cut it to about a good thick 2inch high level so that it feels like soft carpet, of course it would be stupid for them to say, "hey can I have it back a little higher?" But they sure can say, "hey can you cut it down some more?" Of course I would! Because to the customer that little bit lower cut is better to THEM!

Surely someone can expect better quality work than what Phil received...surely.

 

If I may, I'll elabourate:

I raise the question Brad because it begs to look into the specifics of the transaction. We can't just accept Phil's complaint splashed with a few pictures at face value if we're to be fair about finding out what the truth is. The issue here has to do with a "customer's" complaint, full of all sorts of obsessive, malicious behaviour, being directed at a service provider (Jason) who not only has many happy customers who've posted in this very thread but it also has to do with how Phil's words, as a customer who seems to bemoan responsibility, can dodge having the spotlight on himself while using this Internet forum to shoot holes through Jason's business. Specific to this, if Phil didn't pay for this work, or if there was any hint of ambiguity on either side as to the solidity of the deal, then it's not all that unreasonable for a deal like this to go sour and then end up with someone not having everything finished to standards that you and I or anyone else on the outside would have. Does that come across right?

As far as your example goes, it's not only perfectly reasonable but it's also a good one; one I can relate to. I get it. However, I don't believe it's comparable to the deal between Phil and Jason. A deal between us, in your hypothetical example, makes sense initially because certain factors of the deal are set forth up-front prior to any work being done on either side. I tune your car, you promote me (post about it, tell your buddies, whatever); simple and easy. No ambiguity; no room for error, no room for problems in the future. All of the communication is done up-front so as to prevent us from having an argument later on down the road. However, with respect to the matter at hand, not only was there a great deal of ambiguity on the terms of the deal (that's the fault of both parties), several months went by where things happened and didn't happen that should have (that's also the fault of both parties). Couple this with the fact that Jason, by way of the witness of several others that've posted here, has a history of having done at worst satisfactory work. Infact, aside from Phil's complaint, I haven't seen a single other paying customer of Jason's that's complained. From my perspective, that elevates Jason's "base" reputation; we're not starting completely from scratch about this guy because others are pleased with him.

If you or I had some miscommunication, or if either of us were irresponsible with our practices and chose not to communicate certain things that were foundational to the deal in the first place, it'd be no surprise if your tune wasn't 100% (and you were therefore upset) or if I was upset because I didn't feel as if you were doing a well-enough job promoting my tuning business. But, back over here, I've got 5 other happy customers that all say that I do a bang-up job. That in and of itself testifies to the quality of work I normally produce. That's the standard that can be reasonably expected by everyone when it comes to paying me to do tuning work. Now, in this example, I'm not attempting to absolve myself of the responsibility of not having spoken to you as I should, or not having setup boundaries that I should have with respect to how my tune was to be done properly on your car, or any of that. I'm trying to say that there may be a reasonable explanation that has nothing to do with your having been ripped off on why your tune wasn't 100%.

It's not my intent here to imply Phil the 100% bad guy (although I do believe he's acting very inappropriately and highly abusively) and Jason the wet-cheeked, 100% innocent guy. Jason's made some bad calls: He's kept a few of Phil's items, he wasn't up-front about the nature of the deal with Phil, and he chose not to speak about things that were occurring during the deal when he most assuredly should have. But, all in all, it doesn't mean that he purposefully, with intent, chose to send Phil junk. After all, isn't that what's at the very heart of this complaint?

In lieu of not only his mistreatment of me on this section but as well as his attempts at sabotaging mine and Mike's tuning trip up there, for all the world to see, have any of those said sponsours changed their minds? Infact, have you or any of your friends changed your minds about him? He's not only made false accusations about Jason but he's trying everything he can to pull me into the same silly trap because he's furious that I questioned the veracity of his claims. Will that change your opinion or anyone else's opinion of him that's already a friend or a sponsor? If the answer is 'no' to all of these questions, then my point is strengthened -- he has nothing to lose.

Generally speaking, a customer has no accountability for what he or she says. A product or service provider, however, has so much of it that we drown in the dread of the fear of doing that customer wrong.

The last point is absolutely true and I told Jason that he must return whatever rightfully belongs to Phil. Just because Phil has demosized Jason to such a great extent, and even though I personally feel it's both unfair and egregious, it still doesn't give Jason the right to keep Phil's stuff.

B

 

That's a good point, but it's kind of off the mark a bit. Akin to your lawn mower situation, what if you had a customer that said he'd tell all his neighbors about you if you cut his yard for free. What if while you were cutting the customer's yard, the customer came out and asked you to stop half-way through. Then later, he goes around to all of his neighbors saying, "Don't get this guy to cut your grass, look at what a terrible job he did."

Should you be given the chance to finish the work? Absolutely. Should your reputation be slaughtered? Possibly considering the work that was done, in Jason and Phil's case, did take an unusually large amount of time, but I don't think that taking it this far and to this degree shows very much character. I don't think anyone's trying to argue that most of the work done was sub-standard, I just think that what most everyone here is trying to convey is that the character assassination, mud slinging, and now messing with another man's business (Brian's, not Jason's), is simply taking things past the point of what's reasonable.

 

First off, I would like to say thank you to those of you that I respect and like very much to put yourself in this line of fire. You are the only reason I am making this post. First off I would like to say that I know anything I do, or say will not reverse what has happened. Like I have said before, I was very sorry to Phil for the things that were unsatisfactory. I had to learn alot of crafts along the way, it was well documented and ultimately caused the long wait for the parts. I tried as hard as I could. As you can see, there was never telling Phil, "NO" he insisted I do the yellow, even after I told him the problems we will encounter with distortion in the weave. He did not listen and said, " a little distortion is alright". It was not alright. He made post after he got the first batch of parts from me, which he said himself he recieved months before the final shipment. He told me they were great, and some had problems. I told him to send them back and I would fix them of course. He waited til the end and did this. Of course I am going to get upset, I have poured my blood, sweat and tears into this stuff. I don't just sell stuff. I make them with my own two hands. Its easy for you guys to criticize me. It only makes be better at what I do. Thanx for that, but as far as bashing me and saying personal **** and including my info and family is way overboard. In that case I will do what it takes to protect myself. I have made many mistakes with Phil, I take full responsibility for the parts needing more attention to detail. half of the reason was that my paint guy moved and I had to learn it all for myself and its not easy. I admit I was terrible at polishing and buffing and wet sanding at first. Now with the door panel, once I worked on the panel for a while I trimmed it up and found that the CF did not lay down and adhere right in the vac bag process. I immediately knew that the only way to fix it was to buy a replacement panel and return both to Phil, I never touched the drivers side panel. I bought a replacement panel to send to Phil, when I got it, it was black. Matter of fact I thought it looked very good, it was in better condition than the one used originally. I then used an expensive vinyl cleaner to clean them up and sent them back. I never saw any of what Phil claims, why did the paint not come off when I cleaned it? Anyway, I would have replaced it again if he could PROVE that I did something wrong. He chose to defame me and ruin me, the damage on my side is far beyond repair. No amount of money will give me what Phil took. He made it personal and started to take it out on people of the most upmost character. BDC your an amazing tuner and more an amazing guy. Can't wait to have you back. Thanx to all, but like Joe said there is no resolution at this point. I hope this does not go any further.

 

LOL!

Well, here is something i had to endure and Ive sent many many emails like this for 1.5 years..

 

regarding door panel,

Now I hate to assume.. again.. but waiting for the parts for over a year, seeing apic of the door panel covered in CF back in late 2005, Its hard for me to believe it would lift few days before him finally sending the parts... Espeically when he raved about how his stuff will NEVER LIFT!!!

 

After he sends all the parts he states this to me... This is the kicker if the pics I've posted is what I've recieved..

Again, when I posted the pics of some of the parts on forsale section, most thought the job wasn't done right.

 

First, let me say that I do understand some of your points but here's the thing about the above statement.

Yes, another example I stated earlier that I have a lawn care business on the side for extra FD money. If I cut 50 yards perfect everytime I cut them but one day I'm having a bad day and I cut yard #49 awful, well the owner of yard #49 is not only NOT going to care about the quality of work that I've done on all the other yards but he's also not going to care about the quality of work that I've done on his yard in the past...he cares about how his yard looks now. That's a right of the customer and I know you know that. If I just just loaded up my stuff and high-tailed it out of there without fixing it or at least give an explanantion, I'll loose that customer as well as others. Not to mention if I took the guys lawn ornaments and never returned them

 

Send him a proper door panel and post some pictures of your better work for starters. May also be worth while to give him back any of his former possessions that you might still have on hand. People are willing to give you another chance, you just need to give them a reason to.

 

Also remember that I have over 400 emails exchanged between this character and me.. since OCT of 2005!! Send him stock parts since 11-2005.

And about me giving him parts..

That shift **** he's talking about, I had to special order and costed me over $250.

 

This is what he stated to me.. again, back in Jan 2006..

I guess when his painter quit it was before my time.. Geez! Lies! Because at this point, he hasn't done any other 7 owners stuff.. like joe's.

And I guess he didn't quite see the imperfections on my parts... hmmm interesting.. he did half of what I got at this point..

 

Next.. he made it sound like he was going to send me parts before DGRR 2006..

Also he's telling me he's going to use up all the CF I bought for him and worrying about it.. but the truth was, he used it to do "other" people's stuff.. LOL! Again, I bought the material for converting my parts.. and told him any extra he could have.

 

Good example, but like your first one, it assumes a 100% honest, good nature of the paying customer as well as the 100% irresponsibility of yourself, the lawn guy. I say that while it's a good example to illustrate a particular point, I don't believe it is synonymous with what has happened between Jason and Phil. Jason may've had a bad day, or not shown up with all of his lawn equipment, or put off doing the weed-eating because he didn't prioritize when to pick his kids up from school, but that doesn't mean Phil wasn't a never-able-to-please kind of narcissist that was expecting a $200 job for $50 of work, assuming how the job was supposed to be done from the get-go while Jason had a different idea about it.

The point is Phil can say whatever he wants about Jason's work on his lawn even though neither of them came to a solid, complete, and unamibguous understanding as to exactly what Jason's $50 labour charge was going to entail. As a customer in this example, he's not accountable to anyone. Jason is accountable to his customer because he received money and performed a service. Phil gets on the www.LawnProfessionals.com website, steers straight into the Good Lawn Guy/Bad Lawn Guy section of the forum, and tears Jason a new one, posting pictures of his "poor" lawn, eviscerating Jason personally and professionally, all the while completely absolving himself of his own responsibility in making assumptions and not communicating things straight on prior to Jason heading over w/ his mower. Nevermind the fact that the work performed isn't indicative of Jason's normal job. Nevermind the fact that several others have come to Jason's defense, arguing on his behalf of how well of a job he did on their lawns. Jason's slandered as a scam artist -- "Don't let him do your lawn!!"

B

 

Here is the Defi gauge i bought him... because he wanted me to track one down for me.. took me awhile but got it.. and he never paid me..



Now the kicker..
pic was taken or I recieved this email, March 23rd, 2006...

You'll see that just behind the tan panel is the CF'd panel.. Its vacuum formed as he puts it, it will never lift.. I agree to a point..
I also know its vacuum formed because you could see the excess resin from the bag..

 

I emailed this to him in July 2006

jason wrote back
This is JULY of last year!! I didn't get any parts until Feb this year..

Again, I just wanted my parts back!!

 

Regarding trying to work things out.. I think brian was wondering about this.. I did try.. multiple times..

His response

Again, I think we worked out the details if you ask me..

As stated before, I'm stating the fact here..

 

I then send him an email 2 days later about the condition of what I've recieved so far... again, back in AUG. 2006...

Again, If you read this email I sent Jason, he had PLENTY OF TIME!

Wait, Didn't he say, I never said anything about it?? Ha, Wait, I did.. AUG 2006!!! Almost 6 months prior to recieving painted tan door panels..
Again, he had plenty of time to correct his mistakes and faulty parts... and I came up and stuck to the plans.. then later he asks for more money..

 

Sept 13th, 2007

NO ANSWER!!

Sept. 26th, 2006
He replies..

Do you guys remember when I kept saying false promises.... now some of you see it??

 

I know Jason mentioned earlier that I didn't promote him.. again, I've tried..

No response from jason after this email..

Oct. 10th, 2006
His response..

 

Another email I sent him about the problems with the parts he sent me mid last year..
I know again, Jason stated that I didn't mention it before??
I also included the pics with this...
[quote=me]Jason,

Another problem..

I tried to fit some of the parts and they do not fit. Especially this one (pics attatched).

Looks like you might of put too much vac when the resin/epoxy was hardening. It warp the shape of the part and I can not snap it in. And yes, I've removed some resin around the corner, cleaned the surround,etc.. and still do not snap on. This is a problem.. I have not tried to do other side.


[quote]

And just so you know, I have 3 FD's and spare rear truck pieces.. it didn't fit in any of them.. interesting.. hmm

And thats exactly what I email him..

He wrote back.. a novel!!

Again, lot of words... nothing! And again, he stated, here (earlier Lot less than $1000) $1000 to do the WHOLE interior... And at this point, gave him parts and supplies exceeding $1000.. and he confirmed it in previous email that he recieved them.. Now he ask for reciepts?? Funny.

I send him the door handles as promised.. following up on my words..

At this point, i gave up on Jason's skill and just wanted to get my parts back!!

 

I'll keep going..

Jason sounded like he was doing all this stuff for free.. but why would he state this after I bought him the $250 illuminating RX8 shifter??

As I stated before, i told him, dont worry about it and we'll work it out at the end.... I didn't think him paying me $100 will lead to me giving him another $1000 in parts, cash, materials, and tracking down stuff for him to mold and sell (feed covers)... LOL!

AGAIN, I think we are starting to see, he made a commitment and telling me what he will do..

As I stated before, I been helping Jason for over 2months at this point... Again, I like to help fellow rotary owners and unlike what some of you think, I been doing that without compensation for years..

 

Just in case, those of you doubt about all these emails...

Here is a screenshot of most of it!! And this does not include PMs on this forum when he first contacted me and when I was trying to get info on the progress.. when he didn't reply my emails..





Seriously, hundreds of emails.. And I've spend HOURS on the phone.. This went on from 10/2005 til recieving tan panels in 2/2007... Can you say frustration??

Before taking side to someone who's been lying on this forum, to someone else he meets, see the facts before name calling....


Again, This email I sent him in 8/4/2006 sums up my frustration back then.. but kept at it for another 8 months.. and hoped that he would make things right..

 

I agree 100%. I've stayed on the sidelines so far, but Jason: I think sending Phil a good condition black door panel, as well as all the parts you initially received, will go a long way towards fixing this mess.

 

Again, Lets see if he's man enough to do that.. I asked this back in Aug.2006, thru JOE in Feb. 2007...

By the way, you could return everything (Defi gauge, Shiftknob, door panels, 99 lips, 93 R1 lip,etc...) minus the CF.. that you used it on other people's parts so, thats fine
I'll even tell you you don't have to replace any defective parts you've sent me... Just return what I gave you.. I think this is VERY reasonable??

And especially, you still think you did all the stuff for FREE, you shouldn't have any issue sending these parts back.

This I wrote to, Joe Mirabile