KZ1

Did he do them himself, or are they from XS or something? I am doing my fuel maps myself, but noticed he has differnt ignition maps too.

thanks

SARX7

I don't know but he seems to have a lot of timing taken out of the trailing maps down low.

I don't know why though.

Does anyone else think the trailing timing map is a bit excessive?

Rotary93

Ive been running his maps now for 3 weeks...No side effects...yet...

KZ1

I know guys are using them with no problems, I just was curious who put them together. I am thinking maybe companies that tune the PFCs all use the same IGN maps for similar setups. Like if the ignition timing would be different for a ported engine? I know other thinsg wouldn;t matter, but I am concerned about that one. Not that it would necessarily cause a problem, maybe just not perfect enough.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Spyfish007's timing maps are almost the same as the Apexi base maps for mild modifications which are the first two of the forum's "STOCK" sets.

Only 5 cells in the IGL map are different with
one cell looking like it was a writing/translation error.

So in reality, Carson is/was running the stock timing maps at that time.

To verify this, copy his and the stock maps to your PC and use Excel math functions to calculate
the differenece between the stock set and his set.

KZ1

What maps are you looking at? the difernce between spyfish's maps and the base maps posted, in regards to Ign leading and trailing are vastly different. Huge differences, especially above 1.0 kg/cm^2. That is why I started this post. Maybe I am missing something, i don't know.

SARX7

I was using Spyfish's maps, but just switched over to Chuck's new maps and the around town drivability seems to have improved a bit. I don't get as much poping from the exhaust when I let off the gas while cruising.

KZ1

Which one is chuck's whhat mods is it for?

thanks

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

I made a reference error, let me try to sort this mess out.
I apologize for this error.

There are two sets of Apexi base maps from what I have heard. One is totally stock for US fuel, I have not personally seen one of these. The first two listed stock map sets are these I presume because the max absolute pressure listed only goes to absolute 2.0Kg/Ccm^ or 13.7PSI relative.

The second set is for slightly modified engines. This set is the first set that was sent to me last summer by Grant Oishi. These are the set that Ray's are based on. I have a tendancy to refer to these as the base stock maps. Tha't my confusion! They go to 2.4Kg/Ccm^ absolute pressure for row P20 which is 19.4 PSI relative.

All of you PFC owners, go to P20 in any of the 3 maps, and see what pressure is shown. This will be interesting to know.

Now this is weird: The fuel maps for the stock listed maps on the forum are the same as for the modded set I have and what Spyfish bascially has. The stock forum map for P20,N20 cells has IGL = 17 and IGT = 9. Spyfish has IGL = 25 and IGT = 11.
That would make Spyfish have more advanced timing if his pressure settings were true as shown on his maps. I believe his shown absolute pressure is wrong.

Now Spyfish007's 3 map set's values are 99% equal to the modded stock set I have but he shows only 2.0Kg/Ccm^ max which I presume is an error.I'm attaching my mods but can't attach the EXCEL modded set. You will have to contact me directly for those.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

"The second set is for slightly modified engines. This set is the first set that was sent to me last summer by Grant Oishi. These are the set that Ray's are based on."

I should have said, "I think Rays are based on these." The only way to truely tell which base maps you have is to re-init your PFC which most of us do not want to do.

The problem we are having is lack of accurate and complete data about the PFC. Only Apexi, Ray, or XS can give us this. They have not done this.

Members on this forum are also guilty because they have not been plotting their maps and sending them into Jason. Until a larger data base is built, we will be guessing.

KZ1

thanks a lot, I am going to go through them again, try to make sense of it. I havn't really looked at the ones from houston, but I will. The two top ones are the base maps I have, more advanced timing makes sense on spyfishes, I really just want to validate that spyfishes are optmial for a non ported engine, I don't know enough about ignition timing on rotaries to know. I figured if pople like SR used all the same ignition maps basically regardless of port, etc, then I could be sure of them, or else I woudl send it to them. I think I may come up with a little comparison speadsheet to just list teh diffences between all of them on one page.

I know I want to advance the timing, just want to know how much I can go before detonating or pinging, timing is such a great way to get more power, and the PFC is so flexible I hate not to take complete advantage of it.

I think I may just slap 'em in and see how they run liek everyone else, lol.

cewrx7r1, thanks gain, I am goign to look into it more.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

KZ1,

After looking at the other posted maps, I wonder if their pressure levels listed for the rows is correct. Comparing parts of the IGL & IGT maps from the stock which goes to 2.0Kg/Ccm^2 looks almost like mine which goes to 2.4Kg/Ccm^2.

I wonder if when they copied their maps if they really looked at the pressure level or just numbered them .1 to 2.0.

I plan to redue my maps(houston 1) with more information(pressure levels, etc) and have Jason upgrade them on the forum.

Maybe we all should look at our pressure levels
for the rows to insure we are comparing similar
maps.

KZ1

okay I looked at all of them, this is teh deal.

Houston 2 shares the same basic ignition maps (L) as spyfish, houston 1 is the same as base maps posted here. I will assum that the ones shred by spyfish and houston are from ray. and teh other are just base maps.

NewbernD

iTrader: (1)

I'll second that.. I got my PFC from Ray, and spyfishes timing is almost identical to what came in my base map.

SARX7

I got my PFC from Ray untuned, and spyfish's maps were quite different.

I'll go check my comander and see what my pressure levels are set to, but I belive they are set to 2.0

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

There are two sets of base maps but only one is posted here on the forum. The first I saw/received
was last summer. I'll attach it below. Spyfish is equal to it almost 99% of it. Houston-2 is based on it.

Houston-1 is mine and is for a non-seq or single turbo engine. Ray ported Kyle's large single turbo engine and also did his maps. His ignition maps are 100% equal to mine. They are modified versions of the base maps here on the forum.

SARX7

ok I checked my PFC and my maps do go up to 2.4

my PFC version is 5.08
and the Commander is 5.00A

Now I do remember when I set up the maps initially I used SpyFish's maps and had to make quite a few changes. Of course I didn't compare my "stock" untuned map with the "stock" maps that are on the forum so I don't know if they were the same or not. I might try this weekend to re-init the PFC and compare.

KZ1

same here, starting at n17, it starts to count in 2. so n15 is 1.5, but n20 is 2.4. I think it was just an oversight on whoever entered the maps the first time, and everyone used the same format.

spyfish007

My maps are from RP and Chris Ott. The powerFC was used on the black car that is in this month's issue of Turbo. Of course it was used before the T-78 when it had intake, dp, cat-back and street-port. I am almost certain that it had a midpipe too. The maps are just slightly massaged from the stock maps. One thing I have noticed is that the stock IC gets so hot that intake temps are really high, so there is not as much O2 going into the engine as with a nice big FMIC. Goodfellas had these maps and they ran great for him. He added an IC and a midpipe and they were WAY TOO LEAN! He makes about the same amount of power now (since he got it tuned, but it is way more safe now). I even took some timing out of the maps because I thought it was pushing it a little too much. I have since gone non-sequential and I have blended my maps with Chuck's maps. (Chuck when I use your PIM corrections I get WAY too much fuel and it runs really rough especially @ 4k.)

KZ1

BTW, the stocks base maps on this forum are completely correct.

Has anyone dynoed the differnce with and wothout modded timming maps? Spyfish, your fuel maps are basically base fuel maps except maybe 6 cells. I run that with your timming maps and I am super rich like .95. Wierd how Goodfellas ran lean with them, well he does have a ported engine, that is porbably the dfference. I have i/c mp too.

again, anyoen documented the effect of these timing maps?

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Spyfish,

The PIM voltage notes at the bottom of the my fuel map that I sent you were not intended for your use. They are my personal notes taken when adjusting fuel for different O2 sensors to achive a certain O2 voltage or AFR. All of them were are way too rich! I am running only the fuel map with 0% on the PIMs.

Since my timing maps are the same as Ray has done for a large ported and single turbo engine, they might have too much retard for a street port and stock turbo setup like yours.

The knowledgeable racers on the single turbo forum have posted
this following data about max leading timing:
stock +20 - 23 degrees
street port +15 - 17 degrees
periphial port +14 - 15 degrees

1 example for a street port was:
off boost +30 degrees, linear tapering down to +21 degrees at 10PSI boost, tapering down to +14 at 15+ psi boost.

Ari had: +6 to +12 for 0 to 15psi boost then +12 for higher boost.


Unforntunately the PFC cells do not represent direct timing.

Go to the single tubo forum and read the threads about timing and timing split.

KZ1

thanks for the link, that is fantastic. One major question though. Under that premise, the better the engine breaths the less advance you will run, they even mention exhaust mods. So, howecome the modded maps on here seemingly from roy, have more advanced timming in them? you woudl think they woudl be retarded. Unless of course the PFC base maps are very conservative. I noticed as well the the timing split fo rhouston 2 and spyfish i salmost the same, but spyfish generally has more advance.

I had questions about wether the modded maps here were applicable to me because I don't have a ported engine. However, from the post in the other section, a ported engine would be able to run even less advance than a stock port. So, in this case there is still power I am not realising by using those modded maps. It also is possible that the differences are so small they don't warrant any changes.

I wish someone would post maps from XS or SR with a stock ported engine and mods similar to mine.

ech

I don't have my car right now, but I could swear that I saw much larger timing advance than the numbers stated above - for a basic Stage 3 setup and a PFC from Ray, tuned by KDR. - like close to 50 degrees.

How does the PFC report timing? Does it show the total different from idle? In other words if I should see a range of +20 to -23 then would I see just that or a range of 0 through 43? My car is back at KDR, so I can't check.

I'm going to start another thread to survay what they see for peek hold on leading and trailing. - please visit that thread and report.

thanks

ech

I still don't have my car, but I did get a chance to poor over the PCF manual. The PCF seems to set timing advance in the maps. In the screen shots of the monitor functions they show peek hold of "40". In the settings pages they show timing advance of 31 degrees at 2000 rmp at low loads.

So the question is, what is the baseline? Does anyone know how this works and relates to other writings (other ECU's etc.)?

There is also a page on the temporary adjustments - where it shows 15 degrees for leading and trailing. Is this for relative adjustment only - or a reading from a specific cell ??