Power FC pfc alittle insight plz
05-23-08, 10:31 AM
#77
yes anytime you change the IGL you will have to go back and adjust the IGT. Your timing split looks alot better, though you may want to try being a bit more conservative until you get the hang of things more. (higher split) At least in boost areas. Maybe chuck can chime in here.
From what i've learned a lower split is similar to advancing the timing. Although i don't think you IGL was very aggressive so the split should be okay. But honestly i'm just learning about proper timing, and i don't trust my knock sensor so i feel like i would be blindly adjusting numbers without knowing what the effect is.
From what i've learned a lower split is similar to advancing the timing. Although i don't think you IGL was very aggressive so the split should be okay. But honestly i'm just learning about proper timing, and i don't trust my knock sensor so i feel like i would be blindly adjusting numbers without knowing what the effect is.
05-23-08, 11:15 AM
#78
ok i just looked at your new map and the idle IGL is still not right. if you want 10 degrees for your IGL map then Put 10 from N1 to N4 and P1 to P6 or so. It really depends where your car idles. Just make sure the timing is the SAME where the car idles. It is still going to jump from 10 to 18 in your idle area. So pick one, 10 or 18? then put that in your whole idle area. Unless you plan on using a different timing for high load idle compared to low load idle. My low and high load idles barely move from eachother so i keep the timng the same.
05-23-08, 11:30 AM
#79
ok cool i think im catching on. I just did a couple of more things to the ignL. not sure if its really right I tried to transition the timing for idle so it wasnt such a large jump and smoothed out the rest of the map and the split id like here what chuck has to say about it. thanks
James
James
05-23-08, 11:42 AM
#81
here is what my IGL looks like. You can see where the idle is from the yellow squares. while the time does jump from idle, its not noticeable when free reving or moving from the idle to cruise cells. the rest of my map is basically the stock timing, i'll need to lower it for my street port once i start tuning the other areas. what effect does your adjustments make on the car when you have it running? The main thing is to just play around with it to see how changing things effects the car. when i first started the car with the base map and manual idle control the car's idle jumped everywhere. at first i thought it was the fuel maps but after playing with the timing it all smoothed out and then i adjusted the fuel maps and got a nice solid idle with decent AFR's 12.5/13.
05-23-08, 12:41 PM
#82
ok i understand i altered my map like you said and logged it in the car idles fine. im not having idle problems im havin problems free revving i can only get the rpms to go up with ******* with the pedal. i hav a log with the new map after i adjusted the fuel map to my afrs. didnt really cange anything. so then i saide **** it and tried arghx map again and reacalct it to mmy afrs and the car ran a little better sit hesitated but much less andi was abled to my higher up in the rpm band w/ all maps it wants to die the second i touch the throttle but then if i **** w/ it itll rev ok. heres the first log w/ my new map
05-23-08, 05:48 PM
#88
I think he fixed his map sensor, it was set up improperly in the DL a while back.
I looked through the second map of you messing around with the one I posted up here. I think you just leaned out some of the original cells too much. Look at N6 P6, you reduced it by almost an entire millisecond (this is from using the compare option in the FC edit software). Also, you are positive that your TPS is 100% set up properly? I didn't see the TPS voltage get much over 1 volt. Now I suppose it's possible that you were really, really easy on the throttle, but you need to just make sure. Also, this is only you free reving the car with it not moving, correct?
I looked through the second map of you messing around with the one I posted up here. I think you just leaned out some of the original cells too much. Look at N6 P6, you reduced it by almost an entire millisecond (this is from using the compare option in the FC edit software). Also, you are positive that your TPS is 100% set up properly? I didn't see the TPS voltage get much over 1 volt. Now I suppose it's possible that you were really, really easy on the throttle, but you need to just make sure. Also, this is only you free reving the car with it not moving, correct?
05-23-08, 06:49 PM
#89
yes just free revving not moving. i was pretty easy on the throttle, but ill go over my tps wiring again just to make sure. the only thing I change on your original map were the fuel map i enter my afr readings from the original put them in the afr tuner program and that what it gave me i think my afrs were were around 9 w/ the original map ima put the original 1 back in and see what else i can do.
Last edited by JWteknix; 05-23-08 at 07:03 PM.
05-23-08, 07:50 PM
#90
Some of the afr readings during those logs might be decel. Readings and can skew the map slightly. You should make sure you use a peak afr and that its more then just passing through the cells. This is all discussed in the notes. Of course you can always add more fuel if you notice it made things leaner in areas. Once you play around you should have more of an idea how everything works together. If its wanting you to take out lots of fuel only in one cell you it should clue you in that something may not be right with that. On the lean rev spots just add fuel to them. Add alot of fuel if need be to see how it effects the car running.
05-24-08, 07:21 AM
#91
Some may have better luck, but I personally would not use that AFR tuner spreadsheet in that part of the map as it is hard to get clean readings in map watch and the car seems really sensitive to small changes. I look through the AFR curves in my datalog, see what cells they are falling into, and just slowly make small corrections.
Here is a screenshot of me looking through that most recent log you posted. I have 4 graphs: rpm, InjFrPr, Wideband, and TPS v. You can see I have the slider over a part with a lean AFR and steady throttle position and relatively steady rpm (not decelerating). Then over to the right I use the "ghost" feature to see what cells it is falling into.
First I opened up have the most recent map you uploaded in FC edit "argx.dat" . Then I used the compare feature with the first map you uploaded, the one without changes ( "aghx.dat" ). I went into the basemap tab and set the view to "base * INJ' . In those two yellow highlighted cells you will see .271 and .269 . That means the AFR tuner program decreased those cells by .271 and .269 milliseconds. Given the steady pulsewidth and throttle position on the graph, it seems to me that there is a good chance of those two cells just being too lean (as opposed to an accel problem). Since your water temp is 47 degrees, they will only get leaner as the car warms up.
So from here you could go in the base X INJ view (with "compare" feature off) and increase those cells by some amount of milliseconds... maybe .3 or .4 to start with? Or you could find those cells in the INJ map and increase it there. You just have to play with it and make small changes at a time. It requires patience. As far as what AFR you should go for in each cell, well there is no easy answer to that. You need to just see how much fuel the motor needs to run smooth enough to your liking.
Here is a screenshot of me looking through that most recent log you posted. I have 4 graphs: rpm, InjFrPr, Wideband, and TPS v. You can see I have the slider over a part with a lean AFR and steady throttle position and relatively steady rpm (not decelerating). Then over to the right I use the "ghost" feature to see what cells it is falling into.
First I opened up have the most recent map you uploaded in FC edit "argx.dat" . Then I used the compare feature with the first map you uploaded, the one without changes ( "aghx.dat" ). I went into the basemap tab and set the view to "base * INJ' . In those two yellow highlighted cells you will see .271 and .269 . That means the AFR tuner program decreased those cells by .271 and .269 milliseconds. Given the steady pulsewidth and throttle position on the graph, it seems to me that there is a good chance of those two cells just being too lean (as opposed to an accel problem). Since your water temp is 47 degrees, they will only get leaner as the car warms up.
So from here you could go in the base X INJ view (with "compare" feature off) and increase those cells by some amount of milliseconds... maybe .3 or .4 to start with? Or you could find those cells in the INJ map and increase it there. You just have to play with it and make small changes at a time. It requires patience. As far as what AFR you should go for in each cell, well there is no easy answer to that. You need to just see how much fuel the motor needs to run smooth enough to your liking.
05-25-08, 11:21 AM
#92
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Some of the off idle fuel cells are hard to tune. This is due to the fact they are used for off idle acceleration and also for steady state cruise.
That is why I run richer AFRs at low speeds and only go to 16.6AFRs at higher speeds.
Download my versions.
Look at my idle and off idle fuel curves. This takes a lot of tuning!
That is why I run richer AFRs at low speeds and only go to 16.6AFRs at higher speeds.
Download my versions.
Look at my idle and off idle fuel curves. This takes a lot of tuning!
05-25-08, 05:49 PM
#93
ok Im srry. Im trying to take all this in and its starting to get really too indept for me. I read through your notes about the fuel curve and I kinda understand how to read it, but I dont understand what all the lines are for, like the different cooler lines. What do they represent? when I put my map in the graph it gives me much more lines then yours show. Im sorry for all this if I sound stupid. Im new to this and am still learning this is the first time Ive ever done anything like this. I thought it would be much easier then this has been. The BanzaiRacing website makes it seem as if your get everything hooked up correct and put their base map in you can just get in and drive to the tuner. As for what arghx is trying to say should I keep the last map I altered and change those two boxes or should I put your original map back in?
05-25-08, 06:49 PM
#94
Honestly dude, if your goal is to get it to the tuner ASAP then get it towed, especially if you have AAA Gold with 100 miles of free towing (especially with gas prices the way they are these days). A basemap is designed for certain setups... if you put the Apex'i FD basemap into an FD that just converted to single turbo with a bunch of fuel mods, you may have the same type of hiccups that you are experiencing. I don't mean that in a condescending or offensive way at all. It's just sort how it is... it makes me appreciate what professional tuners do and how long it takes to get good at that craft.
With that said, by messing around with all this stuff you will be so much more informed when you do get the car tuned. You'll know a little bit about analyzing logs, AFR's, timing maps, etc, instead of just 100% blind faith. You'll be able to ask your tuner intelligent questions about all sorts of aspects of his tuning. So try to think of all the time you've spent so far in that positive way, as an [unintended] learning experience.
Now as far as modifying those two cells, I was just demonstrating a way to tune for driveability that works for me. You can take that map that you made and just start richening up those cells or some of the other ones that appear too lean by using that same process. That's what I would do personally. But you are then going down the road of tuning the car yourself, which is fine, but a pro is just going to throw all that away and put in his own map anyway.
That's why I say that if your main goal is getting it to run well pretty soon, just verify that all your sensors are ok and you have good sparkplugs/ignition and plumbing (all vac/boost leaks taken care of, boost controller hooked up right) and get it towed to the shop. You'll waste a bunch of gas (and thus $) just fiddling with the thing in the driveway and around your neighborhood. Unless your tuner is 400 miles away or something how much money will you save by driving it there (as opposed to towing it) with the AFR's all wacked out and it getting 12mpg on the highway?
With that said, by messing around with all this stuff you will be so much more informed when you do get the car tuned. You'll know a little bit about analyzing logs, AFR's, timing maps, etc, instead of just 100% blind faith. You'll be able to ask your tuner intelligent questions about all sorts of aspects of his tuning. So try to think of all the time you've spent so far in that positive way, as an [unintended] learning experience.
Now as far as modifying those two cells, I was just demonstrating a way to tune for driveability that works for me. You can take that map that you made and just start richening up those cells or some of the other ones that appear too lean by using that same process. That's what I would do personally. But you are then going down the road of tuning the car yourself, which is fine, but a pro is just going to throw all that away and put in his own map anyway.
That's why I say that if your main goal is getting it to run well pretty soon, just verify that all your sensors are ok and you have good sparkplugs/ignition and plumbing (all vac/boost leaks taken care of, boost controller hooked up right) and get it towed to the shop. You'll waste a bunch of gas (and thus $) just fiddling with the thing in the driveway and around your neighborhood. Unless your tuner is 400 miles away or something how much money will you save by driving it there (as opposed to towing it) with the AFR's all wacked out and it getting 12mpg on the highway?
05-25-08, 08:28 PM
#95
I do look at all the time I have spent working on this as a learning experience. You guys have taught me a ton. Its just alot to take on at once, but ima keep at it. And like you said I too also now have a much greater appreciation for turners, chuck, and people like you guys. I don't need it tuned now but you know it would be much nicer to get it running so I can move it around easier until I get it registered then like you said I'm gonna have AAA tow it. Still need to find out who I'm gonna have tune it. I'll start ******* with the again tomorrow or the next day.
thanx
James
thanx
James
06-01-08, 09:38 PM
#97
dude to be quite honest with you I havent had any motivation lately to even **** with the car let alone even look at it. I guess its just a combination of being busy and tired. I've put so much work into this thing for the last six months I just needed a break. Hopfully tomorrow I can get some time in w/ it finish up the exhaust then I can start tuning it more with out the neighbors killing me LOL I'll keep you guys posted
James
James
04-27-11, 10:21 PM
#98
Boost makes cars smile.
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Sorry for the resurrection, but...
WTF ever happened to this thread? It went 3 pages of some AWESOME tuning tips (because Arghx is the MAN!) and then it went *ker-flop* onto it's face.
Update?
WTF ever happened to this thread? It went 3 pages of some AWESOME tuning tips (because Arghx is the MAN!) and then it went *ker-flop* onto it's face.
Update?
04-27-11, 10:35 PM
#99
I forgot about this thread. I'm not sure if the OP has a Power FC anymore. I think he has a Haltech now? It's funny to see my comments about gas prices from three years ago. As far as tuning tips go, besides my thread in the 3rd gen section I am now in charge of the PFC tuning group and notes...
04-27-11, 10:38 PM
#100
Got the car running well. Had it tuned.. Ran into issues.. And went haltech.. Blew it up... now almost done rebuilding.
Looking into learning more about tuning..
This was a really helpful thread thank you aghrx for all the help I am still a membe of the group and will be using it more to learn some ****
Looking into learning more about tuning..
This was a really helpful thread thank you aghrx for all the help I am still a membe of the group and will be using it more to learn some ****