machinehead

Well, I loaded the XS maps posted above and noticed a few things.
One, they are supposed to be rich, but thier maps have you remove fuel at the higher boost levels. If you compare all the maps that are posted the XS maps are the leanest of them all.
Two, ther are few spots where the trailing maps overlap the leading. I think this was just a error because I can see no reason for it.
Last, there were also a few spots where the timing is advanced over the base maps... I can only hope this is not a mistake.
Final conclusion... these are much more agressive maps than all the others.
Anyone else notice any of these things?

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Which maps are you talking about. At leaste 3 of them are by Ray Lochhead of Shane Racing. I posted some analysis ealier in the year about them. The most interesting was on timing split. There are some points of negative split(trailing fires before leading) and obvious leading timing quirks. I have since cleaned up my leading timing and adjusted my trailing for safe split for use with a J&S system. Houston set 1 was mine before fixing them and before replacing the cat with a MP.

See my attached current set. I still need to UEGO tune the maps.

machinehead

The maps i was refering to were the ones from XS for thier TO4S kit.
Thanks, I will compare your maps with the ones from XS. Just at a quick glance, yours look like they make more sense... (if that makes sense?).
Cliff

Jason

iTrader: (5)

I use the XS map and it ran really reach at first. I had to pull a bunch of fuel out.

Jason

machinehead

Yes, they are still rich, but when I loaded them, I noticed that many times I was removing not adding fuel. For example, if you look in the far right bottom corner of the fuel maps which is peak boost and rpm you will see on the XS map a value of 139, all the other maps have a higher value, such as 145, or 149, even the stock map that comes with the PFC is higher.
I am not debating if they are still rich at that point, believe me you are the last person I want to argue with, only pointing out that they are leaner than the rest, therefore more agressive. There are also some spots where the trailing plug is actually firing before the leading. When you print them out and look at them you will see what I am talking about. As far as I can tell this is happenning only in places where it really does not matter... there are some spots on the map that you will never hit, so it doesn't really matter, i just like to see things nice and orderly. If you look at the map Chuck just posted, or all the other maps for that matter, you can see a nice smooth transition in the timing, where on the XS map it will jump up and down and then back up again erratically. Then there are a bunch of cells where they just changed 1 degree. Maybe this is important maybe not.
I am not trying to bash XS here, just discussing the things I noticed.

machinehead

Well, I have been studying the various maps and now I am really confused!
The maps from XS posted above are wierd. In many places there is actually a negative split where the trailing plug is firing as much as 14deg before the leading plug. For example, NO7 PO1 IGNL is 18DEG, same cell trailing is 32 deg!
Is there a strategy here or is this a goof or just a half *** map?
Also, they are definately much leaner than all the rest I have seen so far and very much more aggressive with timing. Thier splits make no sense at all, they seem almost random. All of the other maps I have seen either are very close to stock timing or retarded but the XS maps do the oppostite. Also the fuel... there is not one place where they add fuel. Its always removing fuel over base.
I don't know what to think except either XS is crazy, or all the other maps are VERY conservitive. Everybody was and is so worried about the base maps being too aggressive but these guys are the ones with the software, and by posting these maps, they are basically saying the base maps are too conservitive. For example, at full boost and peak rpm they are saying to bump the timing an additional 10deg and lean the fuel from a correctin value of 145 to 139.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I am really trying to get an understanding of this.
The only other explanation I can think of is that since the XS map is for single turbo, so maybe they can afford be more aggressive at peak boost levels? I mean theoretically at 15 psi at 7000rpm a single would be more efficient right?

RX794

The only way to know what they're doing is to ask XS themselves, as for my opinion, I can say that with the stock style reprogrammed ECU(ie: Pettit, M2, etc.) and the Power FC you can run more timing advance than a Haltech or most of the other stand alone managements due to the ignition being more accurate on the stock style setups.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

As I was the first to mentioned and post map irregularities even in the stock and mod base maps, here are my views. They got that way either because the stock Mazda ECU had coding errors which I doubt, or more likely they occurred when Apexi downloaded/iterpreted what was in the Mazda ecu. Then they apply some sort of mathematical algorithm to changed the maps for engine mods. This then further messes up the errors.

That is why I said look at the fuel or timing trends in an area and look for and correct these errors.

RX-7 Pilot

I have been studying my XS maps for my mods and found some interesting things. I too found the timing quirks in cells that you probably will never hit but none-the-less it is still there. My map has the fuel beefed up a little more than the to4 map posted by Jason with consistently higher numbers in the p17 to p20 range. The aggressive fuel numbers in my map come mostly from N03 to N08 and p05 to P09 range similar to those of the to4's map. The unknown factor in my fuel maps is if XS modifies my base programming as well. They say they do but I cannot check it out to verify it. Hopefully soon I will get some dyno time to see how "rich" or lean I may be running.

RX-7 Pilot

No dyno time yet but I did find some interesting numbers in my Xs programmed PFC. At N11 to N13 and P18 to P20 , my timing splits get real big. Averaging about 20. Does anyone know if too large timing splits are bad?? I want to change my timing splits to a maximum of 15 in the high boost areas but am not really sure of how this will affect my car's performance. Any comments???

thanks
Kelvin

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Mazda uses a 15 timing split. Supposively for emmisions. Less split equals more power. If you run a J&S, do not go below 10, 12 would be better.
There is a long informative thread on the single turbo forum about timing and split. You will have to search for it since it is not recently active.

RX-7 Pilot

thanks, I found the thread...it was very imformative. I'm currently adjusting my timing numbers. i'll post it as soon as I'm done for all to review.

Kelvin

XSPOWER

To clear up any confusion again, the maps that you see are only maybe 60% of what is accessible from the FC Commander. There is a base injector time map within the Power FC that is only accessible by Power Excel shops. This is where we modify our maps. Because this map uses injector time (in milliseconds) we're able to more accurately tune engines. We can guage and judge more of what is going on inside the engine and its components (e.g. turbo, i/c, exhaust, w/g combination). There are also other factors that we change to make a car perfectly smooth for street driving (e.g. cold start, cranking fuel, rate of transition to secondaries, etc.).

Unfortunately, our maps are not "postable". If you are using our maps, change them IMMEDIATELY because you will increase the chances of hurting your engine by inputing a "posted" version XS Power FC map. Just a word of advice.

The only way to use our maps is to send us your Power FC. I'm not necessarily posting this to get your business as there are many sucessfully tuned Power FCs out there not tuned by XS, but I just want to warn the guys out there that are trying to use a "posted" version of our maps.

Sorry for the confusion.

adax

iTrader: (2)

XS,

I think we all (or most all) understand the base fuel map issue. Most of the concern is over the ignition maps which are pretty much wysiwyg to my understanding. Why in the world would you have the trailing plugs fire 14 degrees before the leadings?

Thanks,
Alan, an otherwise happy XS customer.

spunup

I still need to UEGO tune the maps.


Need help? Maybe we will run into that C5 again

XSPOWER

I don't actually do the tuning, but I'll ask why. Which map is it that you have where the trailing plug fires before the leading and can you tell me what cell that point is? That will help me when I ask the tuners why.

machinehead

XS, are you saying "DO NOT" use the maps posted above in the download section? I thought that those were for the people that paticipated in the group buy on the XS turbo kits. We were all told we would recieve maps with our purchase. After I bought mine I was told that only those that bought a PFC with thier kit would recieve maps. Then we were told to use the maps posted above that say "XS to4s kit", now you are saying that those are not authorized?
I sure wish we would get this straight.

RX-7 Pilot

Hey XS
I have a PFC tuned by your company and I will post the cells that I have negative splits on. I appreciate any info you can give me on why these splits occur.

thanks
Kelvin

RX-7 Pilot

XS,
The negative timing splits are in cells N2-P5, N3-P5, N4-P1/2, N5-P1/2/3/4, N6-P1/2/3, N7-P1/2/3, N8-P1/2/3, N4-P8, N6-P7, N7-P7/8, N16-P6, N17-P6, N18-P4 &P6.

I can see that some cells will probably not get hit but some of them are right there in the middle. I am very tempted to "fix" these backward cells unless you can explain why they are there.

thanks again
Kelvin

adax

iTrader: (2)

I have the same negative split cells as Kelvin plus a few more. Not having blind faith in you guys, I retarded the trailings to have at least 0 split for all cells below P10 and 12 split (I use a J&S) for all above P11 and N07, sorry. As long as you're asking please also ask why you alter the injector lag time for the stock 550 injectors from what the manual says Apex found when they tested the stock injectors. I'd also like to add that we all appreciate your efforts and willingness to address our concerns in this forum, we just would like to be a little less in the dark on these potentially troubling issues.

Thanks,
Alan

XSPOWER

I haven't had a chance to ask about the timing splits yet, but I will on Tuesday or Wednesday when I go into the office. As far as "troubling issues" are concerned, we would not sell a program with potentially "troubling issues". I can assure you that the programs we sell have all been tested and are definitely on the safe side.

As far as fuel injection settings, there are many different ways to achieve the same results (e.g. richen overall curve/lean overal curve) and that particular tuner may have chosen to adjust the injector lag time settings to achieve the result he wanted. If your program is directly from US, it will work properly.

Machinehead:
As far as the posted maps, they should not be used. If you were part of the T04 buy, then I think you can send in your Power FC and we would program your Power FC at no charge. I'm not on the sales side of things so please ask Jason or call XS for details. I'm sure that we would not have suggested to use the posted maps as there are many adjustments and settings not accessible through the commander.

I'm glad to be here and help you guys with any questions you have and I'll answer them to the best of my abilities. At the same time, please understand that everything we do (in developing a program) is done for a reason to achieve a particular result. Our tuners are particularly, how should I say it, ****?, which is good for you guys, the recipient of the programs.

machinehead

XSPOWER, thanks for clarifying. I guess it does not "specifically" say the maps are "from" XS Engineering, just that they are "for" your TO4S kit. No worries. I have an appointment for a dyno tune session for Wed. morning! I am very excited to finally get this car dialed in by someone that knows what they are doing.
I have been critical of you guys in the past but it always seems that it was someone else's error and not the fault of XS. Its hard to find the truth and who knows what (lots of missinformation out there) but I am getting it all sorted out. I had some people (not here but another source that I do not deal with anymore) feeding me bad information and so on but that's how it goes sometimes.

XSPOWER

No sweat man. I know how the world turns in the domain of import tuning. The bottom line is that you'll always have to find the truth out from your own experiences.

Glad you made an appointment for tuning. Its the best thing you can do to protect your investment in a modified rotary.

SPOautos

XS - Dont forget to ask about the timing split!!!

Your help is VERY appreciated!!!!!

Thanks,
STEPHEN

RX-7 Pilot

Any word yet on the neg slipts XS? Inquiring minds want to know.

heh
thanks
Kelvin