rotorbrain

how come nobody talks about how to tune ignition. im sure it might be something that tuners want to keep a grip on, but i still think it should be a topic. ill be breaking in my streetported motor soon and after that i plan on some nice tuning. i dont like asking someone what i should do about my setup. . . rather i like to learn the basic theory behind things so that i can get the whole picture.

so heres my question. . . "what is the rule of thumb when tuning ignition timing?"

on NA piston engines with distributors it is simply advance till it pings then back off a bit. now, a rotary engine is hardly a piston motor and the whole pinging thing doesnt really tickle my fancy. we also dont have a distributor cap and our timing maps are wide open for setting. . . not dependent to what the distributor cap sits at for "total timing". this all makes things a little more complicated. oh yeah, its my understanding that you wanna retard a streetported motors ignition timing as to get all of the air/fuel mix into the combustion process (because of the late closing factor). . . so advancing till ping doesnt work regardless. should i retard till hp backs off? im sure if i retard too much the trailing plug would begin to "fire" into the next chamber. . . that doesnt seem too good to me.

so. . . can somebody explain any of this or point me out to a thread or documentation that will.

thanks,
paul

Badog

Paul,

Do you have a wideband? And what ECU are you using? What kind of ignition amp?

Tony

Ranzo

ahhh man I hate to be the one to say it but.............SEARCH.

There is an immense amount of information in this forum and others on ignition timing and pretty explicit details on theory and tests some tuners have done. I read them and turned them over and my mind and did some testing of my own to make my maps..........You should too.

rotorbrain

hey there chief, i have searched and havent found anything. maybe you could be the winner that you claim you are and give me some keywords to use instead of acting like an ***.

on the cool hand, thanks tony. . . no i dont have a wideband as of yet, but the dyno that i go to has a wideband setup. i have a powerfc + datalogit, msd digi 6.

one more thing ranzo. . . if you know so much why didnt you share it. . . . thats what the board is for. did you not notice when i said, "point me to a thread or documentation". i cant stand people with that attitude.

paul

chris-reedtn

yea paul you newB why dont you use the search button!! Man you think after all this time you would have been smart enough to think of that but then you gotta get on here and ask a question that you couldnot find any info on and some on (special) has to remind you of that,

O and just make your own maps paul so you can blow your motor u just thru all that money at.

Man some people are so COOL

-Chris

Badog

Paul,

First advice: test and measure. Get the wideband now. Learn it. Master the fuel.

Once that is done, goto IGN advance and split tweaking. If you get that far, you'll start contributing and when that happens alot of people will start helping you more.

Some of what I know came from here, from engine builders, having intelligent friends, but mostly from testing. I always tested on my car. Never lost a apexi seal, but after 72K, my water may have broken. Giving birth to brand new baby Pineapple soon. That tells you about my method: don't jump, but take calculated steps.

Tuning is an iterative process, I think. The short-cut is doing the right way...the long way. Build on success and move up and out in the boost and rpm range.

You're blind without more data.
Tony

rotorbrain

tony, i appreciate your help. ive messed with the fuel on a wideband before. not a whole bunch, but i feel i can do it again w/o problems. the problem is that the ign timing issue is rarely discussed. i would assume it is because the tuners dont want to let out any secrets. i can understand that. ill be doing what you told me as far as the "up and out" method, but i dont know what my path should start moving towards. what if my "up and out" is actually a path just as bad as little red riding hoods path to her grandmas house. haha. tony, i fully understand what a wideband will get me. i wont do my tuning w/o it. ill do it on the dyno WITH a wideband.

thanks,
paul

jeff48

Paul

Let's get you setup with a WB somehow and soon. You can get hold of me here, in a PM or talk to David and have him give you my phone number. Once you have the WB installed and check it against a dyno WB for accuracy, we can take a look at your timing issues.

The datalogit/WB combo is going to be your savior when it comes to fine tuning. As far as negative split, or trailing plugs pre-igniting in the next "chamber" goes you will have nothing to worry about since you have a datalogit and a good idea of the dynamics.

Tony is absolutley correct. . . Slow is the fastest and cheapest way to tune when it comes to these motors.

radkins

FWIW I searched for "Timing" under this forum and found 23 treads, although I don't pretend to understand them.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/search...der=descending

Actually the fastest way is to have Tony tune your car, he's already done the work

Badog

Paul,

Send me an email/your current map and I'll take a gander at it. That is assuming you have a Datalogit?

Nice words from Ryan and Jeff. It's always great meeting the people whose names you see on the boards.

It's even better knowing that I am not the oldest one on this board!

Tony

rotorbrain

tony, the map i have is the base map from apexi. so figure on that one. haha. my engine is freshly rebuilt and i havent started it yet.

jeff, i am desparately wanting to go with a WB/datalogit setup. . . im so low on cash right now that its next to impossible. id be willing to buy a used setup for the moment off of somebody. . . if anyone knows of one being sold let me know. i already have datalogit, but i dont have the WB setup.

thanks for all the great help guys.

paul

rotorbrain

by the way guys, im not looking for this "fastest way". all i want to know is "how to do it". there isnt a major rotary following out here and even less of them know what a power fc or datalogit is. i just wanna be able to do it myself so me getting an understanding of what i am looking for when tuning the ignition is what i want in the long run. . . basically, i wanna know where the ignition numbers come from. . . i know they dont pop up in someones head and all of a sudden they just work. haha.

paul

Badog

I hear popping sounds all the time, but not of engines popping. Usually eyeballs.

The popping sounds I hear sound like POP-UP VIDEO!

TwinTriangles

I dont get it...? PUV ?
No kidding Ive posted questions about street-port Ignition Retard many times and the only person who is helpful is Chuck... I also am running base map & it seems to be fine, But I heard the base maps were rather aggressive especially for a street port, but I also havent played with the timing on the dyno yet so I have no comparison data... Sorry I will soon though
JDub

jeff48

Great meeting you too Tony.

The bad news for both of us is that I am, despite my appearance, only 27

I have three good reasons to stay this delusional:
1. I am aging (and believe me if I had known I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself).
2. I have a wife and four daughters (talk about having to stay delusional for self preservation reasons).
3. I own a heavily modified 1994 RX-7 (You have to be able to tell yourself that there is just one more thing that you want to do to the car and then you will be done spending money on it).

duboisr

I hear 27 and so sexy

jeff48

R-

Thank David but remind him that he is as delusional as I am. Then again that is probably why we get along so well.

Also please tell David to watch the mail, I am sending him a copy of the Profec B owner's manual today.

J

SPOautos

You mean this stems from being delusional??? Damn, I must be in worse shape than I thought!!!!

STEPHEN

Ranzo

Hmm well I just now seen these comments.....Thank you for your deep selfish smartass comments. If you type in timing or ignition timing in the search window you will get a wealth of information about timing. You will see information about split, maximum timing in various areas of your maps and even more. I am not gonna do any searches and find the links and them post them up for you. However my findings in my own tuning adventures concur closely with those of Rice Racing.
Of course you can ask any question you want on here and have any discussion you want all I was saying is that if you do a search you will be amazed at the information already discussed at length about ingnition timing..............If you notice there still has not been an answer in this thread.

DavidDeco

My 2 cents here...I think there's not so much info regarding timing not because of 'selfish' tuners but because I doubt many really know a solid answer. It's a bit of voodoo when it comes to timing it seems.

You hear some common advice aka "3 mods and you need an ecu" rule but I think a lot of it is just pass-along advice.

The people that have experimented with timing a lot probably can't explain why their particular stuff works and also don't want to be responsible or criticized for their comments.


I've been searching awhile for the same solid info for about a year and the best I have got is from screwing around with it myself. I don't think even a lot of the experts around here have truly solid answers, just some basic guidelines regarding split and a few other pointers.


David

jeff48

It is slightly more than the fact that tuners do not really know a solid answer---it is that there is no solid answer. The answer is (by nature) fluid from car to car and mod to mod. Any mod to (or aging of) a "perfectly tuned" car will render it less than "perfectly tuned". Because tuning requires analysis of the interplay of many variables, giving someone an answer (a map) or a set of rules (if this then you do this in this area of a map) is like handing the keys to your third gen to a fourteen year old and talking him or her through the basics of driving. No matter how talented that 14 year old is and how good your teaching, it is likely that there is going to be a wreck......Most tuners realize that they will be blamed for the wreck and do not share maps or make tuning suggestions. If a newbie wants to tune it him/herself, there is sufficient information here and other places on the net to figure it out. Take it slow and make tiny changes is the best advice one can get/give.

DavidDeco

I also think without gas anaylyzers and the like it's difficult to precisely measure the precise effects of a few degrees there and there without blowing the engine but still extracting the potial there.

And yes, of course they change from car to car. Just as a fuel map would be with differnt mods.

jpandes

I AM searching for info. on: "ignition timing for street ported motors" and came across this thread. I just installed a Datalogit & TechEdge WB(2.O) this wekend.

Now, I understand that I am supposed to start rich and slowly lean out the AFR's to my target AFR's.

But, how do you tune for timing? Is there a way to monitor engine power or performance with regards to changes in timing by reviewing logs?

Hyperion(AKA:Chris) said that you need to be on dyno to view the HP/Torque curve while tuning timing - watch for the HP peak and when it levels out...

I am using this maps timing maps:

Modified Map 2 (Houston RX-7 Club)
Modifications include: cold air induction | Sequential Turbos non sequential | M2 Medium Intercooler | Crane Ignition amp | mild street port | Mind Train down pipe | Midpipe | HKS turbo cat back exhaust | NipponDenso high performance fuel pump.

Is there a way to "know" when you have gotten close to optimum timing? Or can someone send me some timing maps for amild street ported motor(Pineapple)?



Thanks,

John

P.S.

My mods are:
Engine:
Pineapple Racing Street ported motor w/ Stage II Oil Mods . Non-Sequential Stock Turbos @ 14 PSI . Power FC/Commander/Datalogit . Tech Edge WideBand Lamba Air/Fuel Meter . 1300cc Injectors . Custom Cold air intakes w/ K&N's . Polished Aluminum Intake Pipes . M2 Large/Race Stock Mount Intercooler . HKS Twin Power Ignition Amp . Supra TT Fuel Pump . Home Depot Boost Controller

Exhaust: 3" SS Downpipe . N-tech Hi-flow cat . HKS Cat-Back Exhaust

Driveline: ACT S/S Clutch . Lightened Flywheel . B&M Short Shifter .

Cooling: Koyo Aluminum Radiator . Evans NPG+ Coolant . Pettit AST .

Suspension:
M2 Coil Overs . Tokico 5 Way Adj. Struts . Pettit Front Sway Bar . Tri Point Rear Sway Bar . 18" x 8.5" & 18" x 9.5" AB-Flug Wheels .

Misc.:
Home Depot Torque Brace . Autometer Boost Guage & Water Temp Guage . Hawker Odessey PC 680 Mini Battery . Home Depot Grounding Straps . '99 Spec Lip . 5000k HID Conversion kit .

What Next?:
Maybe some BNR Stage III twin turbos...and 400+rwhp. I don't know if this possible on CA Pump Gas at only 91 octane.

jpandes

Wow, I think I scared everyone off this thread with my monster post...

mks

short of dyno measurements telling you if your timing tweaks render more or less power than the previous setting, I'd say tuning timing by EGT seems to be the general method. I've never done it myself so I can't really tell you how, but I think you basically advance timing until your EGT goes out of your desired range. I have no idea if that method might set you up to kill your apex seals when advancing timing too far at peak torque, so maybe you have to add knock count to the equation...

Other than that, find the timing numbers posted on this forum by the seemingly knowledgeable guys, many have posted descriptions of what their timing maps look like. So the ancient answer to all questions applies again: