spyfish007

Goodfellas is right on some things ....

There are hidden maps from the commander that can be read with the datalogit or Apex software from XS (written in Japanesse). There don't seem to be super secret maps, but who really knows what the equations are doing! The map values are plugged into equations where data interpolation goes on ... this is come of what Chuck W. has been talking about. SR is listed as a authorized dealer ... but I don't think he reads japanesse so I don't think he is seeing these values.

rceron

I too would like to support Rich's assertions about his understanding regarding the unviewable timing maps. KDR and another tuner shop are discovering that recently blown engines with PFC (some brand new in many cases) are losing not 1, but as many as 3-5 apex seals. From my conversation with Dave, he is of the belief that this is NOT from one ping, but repeated action from severely advanced timing. KDR has a lot at stake regarding this matter because he has tuned many PFCs and he has had several discussions with XS, RP, and SR in attempt to resolve this matter. In no uncertain terms they told him that there are timing maps we can't see nor can we alter without the XL software.

Now, I'm not disputing everyone's else claims. I know Chuck is an extremely knowledgeable person and has been a tremendous help. It could merely be just a miscommunication issue, but I felt I should say something since I may have lost more than one engine to the PFC.

I just wanted to pass on this important information. One more data point...

Ramon

SPOautos

SR is only dealer, they dont have the software. The software requires the user to read Japanees as it is in full Japanees and can only be used with the Japanees version of windows.

The main question I have is do we know FOR SURE that the datalogit will show all fields. They did say there were other things affecting the timing, like water temp correction which explains mine being different than Spyfishes. If the timing is only a correction I dont think XS would have changed my timing map so much, they would have changed a base map.

Anyway, I guess Jason forgot to post my map.

If someone wants it email me at SJWhite2000@aol.com

Later,
STEPHEN

Chadwick

iTrader: (12)

Well reguardless of what people believe, SR is a Power Excel tuner. Here is a link if you don't believe it:

http://www.apexi-usa.com/powerexcel.asp

Now I'm not saying that they know what they are doing, just that they have the software to alter all maps.


Dan

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

GoodfellaFD3S,

Looking at you old posted maps, those timing maps are still conservative and even my old timing maps are conservative. BUT your fuel is way too lean.
Even the rest of the posted fuel maps are lean except for stock ported engines.

If you have read all my posts on linear O2 street testing and my dyno timing runs, you will see how much fuel I had to add and that more aggressive timing is needed to produce power.

I truely believe that lack of fuel is the problem, not timing. Go above a see my current maps that I am running. I plan to go +2 more degrees on the next dyno tests.

FD Racer

The Datalogit guys are'nt in the U.S. , and if they were I dont think they would be considered "Authorized." In any case, it's great what they've done.



Sorry about your motor Rich. That sucks.

KZ1

c'mon guys. the stock maps are not too advanced. That is rediculous. And if you are really nervous about i, just retard that area aroudn transition.

50tooslow

I recently joined the datalogit group and read their discussions about the Power FC. From what I understood there are not hidden timing maps, there are hidden fuel maps but these are for the idle. Now what I was not clear on is wether or not the numbers we see on the fuel map accecable by the commander are corection numbers for the base hidden idle map or if they are the actual fuel maps. Also what is contained in the hidden area is how the power fc extrapolates between maps. Don't know if this is any help but these guy's sound like they know their ****.

SPOautos

If that's the case it has only been VERY recently that he became a dealer. If he has the software its probably only been within the last month or so I'd bet. I know when I was looking around to have my PFC tuned he didnt have the software and thats only been about 2 months, the only company that had the software at that time was XS and Carboys. Carboys doesn tune RX7's.

I think all this will be much easier when we get the datalogit. It will also be MUCH easier to swap maps because we'll be able to swap everything not just the timing or fuel map, thats important since there are other factors weighing in on the tuning like hidden maps and such.

Hopefully my maps will hit the forum today, I'll send Jason a reminder email.

Later,
STEPHEN

Jonesboro

To KZ1,

I appreciate that you feel so confident that the stock maps are not too advanced, but it would really help novices like me if you also provided an explanation so we could each develop an independent understanding of the reasons why you feel this way.

For example, one explanation that would help me is if someone could explain the IGL and IGT numbers in the stock ECU. If I knew the stock ECU timing numbers, then that reference point would make it much easier to look at the PFC timing numbers and identify when it is more advanced or retarded and the relative magnitude.

spyfish007

SR has been listed as a dealer for quite some time .... and this question has been debated many times over .... would SR spend all that time to enter those valves by hand everytime they sell a PowerFC if they didn't have the software?

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

To Jonesboro,

Have you read the long threads on timing and split that are on the SINGLE TURBO forum? If not, it is a must. Do a search on "timing" for only that forum, then pick out the ones with subjects about it.

SARX7

According to SR at the time I bought my PFC (about 4 months ago) they didn't have the software and APEXi wasn't giving it to them.

This may have changed since then though.

SARX7

has anyone tried to port a Haltec map over to the PFC?

I've been thinking of trying this for a while, although I know the maps are quite a bit different.

RX794

If ANYONE from XS Engineering can answer any of these questions on this forum please, we need some answers to clear the air, also can you please answer this:
The only gripe I have with the PowerFC is the fact that only one performance shop in the U.S.(XS Engineering) has the windows software for it(yes I know it's in Japanease and only works on a Japanease windows based computer). This limits the potential for the PowerFC for the independent user here in the states, I LOVE this unit, BUT if they don't release the software soon, it makes me(and others) think of changing to something that I can access every aspect of. I don't think it's fair to everyone that spent $$$ on the PowerFC to be limited to what they can with it because the software can't be distributed(for whatever the reason is). If anyone from XS can explain why it's like this, please do so. I hope XS doesn't take any offense to this, I just wanna know why it's like this. I know you guys at XS know what you're doing, I'm just asking a question.

SPOautos

the software isnt going to matter now that we have datalogit for the Power FC. You can buy datalogit for $280 and it will show you all the hidden features and maps as well as datalog and have the capability to run a wideband.

Hey guys, my map is up

Later,
STEPHEN

Jonesboro

To Chuck,

Thanks for reminding me to look at the timing and split threads on the single turbo forum. I just realized that you had advised me to do that before and I forgot to follow through. I really appreciate your patience.

3rdGenLuvr

Finally got the time/energy to look at all those damned cells. I had printed out a copy of the map labeled Base Map 2 (Hedge Hog).....(on a side note HH did u notice on the spreadsheet you have 'trailing' written on both the IGL & IGT pages. Its clear looking on the pc but if someone prints it out it may screw them up).

I purchased my unit thru the RX7Store.
PowerFC -ver: 5.08.......FC Commander3 -ver: 5.00A*

I checked some of the other settings and noticed a difference in the 'accelerator injection time'.......again compared to Base Map2:
RPM ms ms
5000 7.5 1.0
4000 7.5 1.0
3000 7.5 1.5*
2000 7.5 1.8*
1000 7.5 2.0*

*= differences

Not sure if it matters but the ONLY changes I have made to the initial settings were the second set of boost numbers which Im currently using:
Pr- .85 60%
Sc- .75 68%


I only found 7 differences in the Inj Map section:
.......N06 N07 N08
P05> 100 100 100


......N08
P15> 119


.......N12
P13> 127
P14> 129
P15> 132



Thats IT! The IGL & IGT were the same as the base map listed.


Hope this adds to somethng!

My question NOW is shld I change anythng with these mods?
K&N drop in w/ slightly modified box(drilled out some holes on bottom)
ATR DP
ATR CB

Trout

Chadwick,
RP is a Power Excel dealer and they do not have the Power Excel software, only XS does but this is not published so that XS doesn't get an unfair marketing advantage (this comment is straight from Chris Ott). RP got to see the Power Excel program when Apexi visited their shop for the dealer approval visit. The Power Excel software is in Japanesse and the only dealer with personel that know Japanesse is XS beside having a close relationship with Apexi.

Looks like Apexi's little game of not letting the public have the Power Excel software becasue they think we're a bunch incompetent morons who can't tune our own cars is gonna shot themselves in the foot if people keep blowing motors and other plug'n play alternatives like the AEM computer keep coming to market. It's an interesting little saga, maybe the PFC will get a reputation like the old Peter Farell purple motor eater. Good luck guys, I was planning on purchasing a PFC but an reconsidering given these problems and lack of definitive answers.
Jack

SARX7

SPOautos,

Can you ask XS why they changed your primary injector lag times?
This isn't the first map from them that I've seen done this way.

SPOautos

I try to call and ask them if I get a chance but they dont like to talk about thier tuning much. I figure it has something to do with the base fuel map but thats only speculation. Maybe I'll get some time to call them today.

Later,
STEPHEN

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Someone once posted -.16 lag for 550 primaries and I tried them on my engine. My idle went from smooth to rough.

SPOautos

It might be that the lag makes a difference in the base fuel map, I dont know. my car runs smooth. Maybe I'll lower it some and see if it makes a difference. I dont know the reasoning behind it.

Later,
STEPHEN

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

We think of the air flow that is going into the engine as being linear. It is in respect to a long time duration, but in reality it is in pulses. Each time the intake ports open up, it pulses in untill they are closed. Off and on.
Like a sine wave function.

The injectors are timed to inject fuel into this pulsating air flow such that the fuel gets complete consumed/taken in by the current intake pulse.

By adjusting LAG TIME, you are modifying the timing of when the fuel is injected into the air stream that is going into the rotor chamber. If way off, it will actually not go into the chamber, but will linger in the intake tract untill the next pulse. This will cause stagnation/puddling which reduces how well the fuel is atomized which affects how well it burns and produces power.

By optimizing the timing, less fuel is required and more power will be produced. You would need a dyno to test this out by measuring power
vs timing, just like you do for ignition timing.

Jonesboro

Originally Posted By Trout
To Trout:

I also have been openly critical about the PFC but I intend to stick with it. I believe that Apexi (the company) deserves blame for lack of extensive "forthcoming/voluntary" customer support, and lack of response to the issues on this Forum. I expected life with a PFC to be easier, but it turned out that the real problem was my "expectation" that was wrong because I haven't found any problems with the PFC as a product. In my own situation I have concluded that 90% of my problems have to do with a lack of understanding about tuning the rotary engine and maybe 10% has to do with operating the PFC.

I am encouraged by the large number of people who use the PFC and quality of the evolving information base coming from the users. You can't put a price on the value of this user info, and it will be years (if ever) before any new ECUs such as AEM will have the same user base. Furthermore, with the Datalogit coming out the info and user posts on the PFC will only become more extensive and informative.

Finally, I really like having the PFC Commander. It is small and compact so I can always keep it connected for monitoring significant operating parameters like injector duty and water temperature.

Keep an open mind on the PFC.