Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I organized one of the first PFC seminar by Chuck Westbrook and I wanted to recommend this seminar to those who own PowerFC.

By far this was one of the best rotary related event Ive ever attended and also one of the most informative event I've been (including $500+ EFI 101 class).

Anyone interested in Tuning, you might want to pick up Chuck's PFC notes and maybe organize something near your town.. If you can't I'm also working with Chuck to create a DVD of his class (About 4 hours long).

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

Keep us posted on the CDs. Would be interesting to know the differences in PFC tuning approach and philosophy between people like Chuck, Steve Kan, Brian Cain and others. Are most of the approaches used fairly consistent except for their respective levels of conservatism or aggressiveness (i.e., final A/F ratios)?

Looking forward to hearing from others who attended the class as to their overall impressions and value. Would a newbie be able to do a baseline tune and make adjustments after attending this class? Just curious!

BDC

Oh, I won't be invited if it's something that Phil here organizes. He's still fuming mad that I stood up to him in public and called him on his abusive treatment of another forum member regarding his carbon fiber work. After all, even though there's probably plenty I could learn about the Datalogit software and PFC from Chuck as well as his seminar more than likely being a benefit to those that attended, the original intent behind the seminar was a machination of Phil's as a way of sabotaging my original tuning trip that was to take place in mid-late June. So, I doubt he's changed his mind about me since I've stood my ground.

As far as my philosophy in tuning, just ask and I'll explain it as best as I can.

B

SPICcnmGT

IMO anyone can tune if you want to. The key to tuning right is taking your time and monitoring everything. The advantage BDC, Steve Kahn, and others have that go around to different cars/tuning sessions is they have a map, from each car if they want, which they can load and use as a good starter map that will be close to what you need then tune from there, which saves them time.

The negative is they don't tune all the little things that that make the car run smoother under cruise and other areas. Which to do it right would take a very long time. There is no way they could do it for everyone and it be worth the money you pay them. I have no doubt though they can/do/could give a good WOT throttle tune, which is where the motor is going to blow, and a fairly good running tune. It's just very time consuming to try and adjust everything perfectly as they would need to street tune and dyno tune both for hours and hours to do everything that the PFC is capable of. This is where you really need to learn to tune yourself so that you can adjust these other settings.

BDC

I don't know who told you that, but don't cluster me in that same group of "tuners" because I know I do all of that stuff, or atleast I put a very concerted effort into it. I've always done this. I have a nickname for it: I call it 'full-spectrum tuning' and I tell just about everybody who pays me to tune their car that that's what I do. Infact, just a few days ago, I tuned one that was here at the house and I told him the very same thing. On that same car, today I just spent another 20 minutes doing some stuff down low (below 2krpm) after having fixed his CAS to trigger wiring and his TPS bracket.

Load tuning is a piece of cake, even more so when you have preset ignition advance curves for the type of fuel and load that's being subjected to the motor. That's no mystery, even though the big horsepower and torque figures are what sells jobs, apparently. With the exception of your post and the valid point you bring up, rarely do people talk about low-end drivability, tip-in, gas mileage (O2 loop or not), cold start and cold running operation, cold and warm idle, etc even though it comprises a better portion of the tuning time as well as it comprising nearly 100% of the driving time we do on our cars (myself included). This also isn't just specific to the PowerFC; this is pretty much true for all real standalones including those that have far more tunability and capability than the PowerFC. To really nail it down, it takes awhile.

Do you know how many of these "tuned" cars I fix because they had next to no time put into the things I've listed above for drivability? Generally speaking, they are so bad that nearly every single time I just replace the entire map and re-do their load tuning from scratch.

Why do you think I spend so long per car whereas some others don't? There's a difference between real tuning and drive-thru tuning and I am decidedly not a drive-thru tuner. No way in the world.

B

SPICcnmGT

^I appologize if it came off that way. But even if you spend 3-4 hrs it can still be fine tuned better, which is where knowing about the PFC and it's settings and being able to log will help the owner of the car as he/she can adjust setting even more than you have had time for. I believe I said, "It's just very time consuming to try and adjust everything perfectly as they would need to street tune and dyno tune both for hours and hours to do everything that the PFC is capable of."

Even Chuck said he still tunes on his car all the time to adjust stuff slightly so it runs better. You just can't do it in a few hours, you may get close but there is still room for improvement.

And as for the tuners that just load maps, I never said that. I said, "The advantage BDC, Steve Kahn, and others have that go around to different cars/tuning sessions is they have a map, from each car if they want, which they can load and use as a good starter map that will be close to what you need then tune from there, which saves them time." No where did I say you nor anyone just loads maps.

BDC

No need to apologize, then; my fault for mis-reading you and misunderstanding your intent. Gotta love the Internet. What Chuck has expressed about how he does his own car is pretty much identical to the same sentiment as to how I deal with mine. However, there is one difference in mine than their might be in his: I use my own car as a test-bed for alot of things, mainly focusing on the difference in porting styles (when I rebuild the engine) or on the whole gasoline/alcohol thing.

I didn't say that we (as tuners) "just load maps", even though some will do it and then not spend a long time fine-tuning much. It seems to me, based on my experience of not only what I do on my own car, what I do on others (customers, mainly), as well as what I've seen other tuners do, the degree of diligence here seems to vary as to the amount of time that's put into fine tuning. My particular take on it is I want to get a customer and keep them and the ways to do it are to try my best at learning the car and then fine-tuning it as much as I can to show that the money they're spending on me to fly me out is ultimately worth it. I want them to know that I give a flip about their cars and that they've got it in good hands and that can only be reflected well in the time I spend on it, I think. That's how I do it, but I know some others don't. They seem to be content with some mild changes for down-low tuning while they focus mainly on high load. /shrug

B

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! Brian, What the hell is wrong with ya?

Are you coming back and **** talking again about how you stood up to me?? Thats a laugh!!! LMAO!! Correction would be I stood up to your mis-information about me and Sonix7 (aka Jason Evan). Go read the thread again.. Far as I remember, You were reading all the hard evidence for hours and didn't say a word afterwards..

Here is the link: https://www.rx7club.com/questions-about-members-102/i-would-never-do-business-sonix7-622796/page11/

Start from post #255 and look at the facts!

Geez, do you not know how to run a small business?? You think I stirred people away from you, when you didn't reply emails and phone calls? Also remember, when you are running a small business, its word of mouth that travels farther than advertising.. If you felt hurt because I didn't think you were a good businessman because you started calling people names, then be it. I'm not going to support someone who I don't think is professional! NO ******* way! And I don't give a **** who thinks you are professional and I will ALWAYS going to recommend someone else instead of you.

Before you keep bringing my name up and **** talking, you need to understand the consequences.. Its a public forum and Again, I have nothing to loose.. its only a hobby for me and by my understanding, its a business for you. Grow the **** up and be a professional and stop making yourself look bad..

Just in case you didn't get the Point: Stop ******* posting on my thread! LOL!

Now, Regarding the seminar..

As many of you know, Chuck Westbrooks have been playing with PFC since it was available.. He bought his FD back in 1992 and have been modifying his car for over a decade. He's a HUGE contributor on Datalogit message board and also on this forum.. So, common sense tells me that there is no better person to learn from than CHUCK! And I believe and I think most who attended the class also believe that they have learned a lot from him! Go to the thread for his seminar and you could hear about what people have gained from the class.

As Chris (SPICcnmGT) mentioned before, and also why I organized is because I believe that it takes time (dataloging and analyzing the data) tuning your cars. Most of us on here drive our car on the street and at different environmental condition. Just by learning few tricks, we could be the tuner and tune it to specific mods and conditions.. Its common sense, by dataloging, you could get the info and anaylize the data and get better tune. And this class is organized in a way to over come your fear about tuning.. And learn more about your car!!

Again, i highly recommend Chuck Westbrook as he and I share same idea about tuning!

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Here is something I've heard about BDC... He came down to Bham to tune one guys car, stays at his customer's house, tunes half *** on this guys FD, then tells his customer that "Datalogit" is waste of money. How could someone say that they are professional and say such thing when BDC is going around borrowing datalogit to tune other people's car?? One tune is equal to a cost of a new datalogit. So, do you now own one?? Professional my *** BDC! By the way the guys car that BDC tuned blew up shortly after the tune.. related? Who knows...

If you want to bad mouth me on my own thread and expect me to sit back YOU must be kidding.. I could go on and on about you and all the stupid things you've done. I cant wait for you to come back on here and tell me again how you stood up.. LOL!
Beware of the "Internet Pitbull"! LMAO!!

zonblitz

iTrader: (9)

I attended the class and found it to be very informative. That's putting it lightly. I have a small amount of tuning experience I learned from Barry Bordes. Chuck and Barry's philosophy is very similar and the level of detail that Chuck goes into is amazing. I also appreciated Chuck's personal attention to helping me leaning my idle.

Thanks Phil for putting together a great event and thanks to Chuck for lending us his brain for the weekend!

SPICcnmGT

No problem it can be hard to show emotion or read something wrong. I tried to make it as unbiased as possible but I could see how you could read it the way you interpreted it.

SPICcnmGT

I second this. I've tuned on my car and have some experience with it, but Chuck makes you think about some of the small stuff you tend to not think about. And if you ask a question he is very good at explaining it so you understand. I actually changed a few things Sunday morning, before we went to the track, that I had never really thought about before and it seemed to make the car run alot better.

And as for Dale's turbo transiton around 3500-3600, that does smooth out the powerband alot if you are running high boost with a full exhaust on twins. I had actually set it mine a little lower but hadn't tried it that low.

BDC

No big deal, then. I just don't want to be lumped into the category of someone who's a "drive-thru" tuner. I don't serve fries and ketchup.

B

BDC

Ya either mean Kevin or Mike. Probably Kevin, I suspect. How was the tune "half-***"? Did you know that that was the same day I had to drive back home 10 hours, of which I incurred an extra hotel night expense because I stayed late to continue to complete Kevin's car for a few more hours?

I said it was a "waste of money?" When and how did I say that?

Nope. Haven't purchased one. Why is this an issue? It never has been before; not once.

How'd it blow up? What exactly happened?

Stupid things I've done? You still want to get me back for defending Jason against your absurd and abusive comments, don't you?

B

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Is that your excuse to state that you are a professional?? Far as I remember, you kept insisting I knew nothing about being a small businessman and being professional... I guess thats what it takes.. LOL!


LOL! Its funny how you make it sound like you didn't say it was a waste and then you state you haven't bought one and its not an issue.. Classic! Wait, Lets read back a bit...

So, I guess this statement about using your car as a test bed and not owning an FD, PFC, Datalogit doesn't pertain to your statement about how you are different because you use your car as a test bed?? LOL! You crack me up! Seriously, You need to learn to stop posting... You don't need to justify if you are so sure about your abilities.

Regarding the datalogit, Its like someone hiring me to change someone's engine and then me telling them, "I need to use your garage, your tools, and you need to go buy a lift so I could work!".. If the customer has all the tools, why do they need to hire me?? It would be just as easier for them to learn to do it since they already have the tool...
Hence the creation of CHUCK WESTBROOK seminar!

What I don't understand is, you say you run a business and how your thrive being a good business person but you bring our situation back up in topic... Do you really think this is making your business look better??


LOL! No, I had absolutely nothing against you until you made it personally by calling names.... You obviously are upset because there was a consequences to your action.. You kept saying you stood up against me but you didn't think the other way around.. Which I think you now realized how stupid you were to call me names.. On top of that, Ive proved to you and others that Jason was infact lying about all what he has told you. Go read it again! Why is that I meet so many thick head people like you and Jason?? Is that how you become a "small business" person??

My advice to you, again as I stated this before, learn from this situation and shut the **** up if it doesn't pertain to you.. Especially you own your own business! If you don't, you need to learn how to deal with the consequences.. Keep posting if you didn't learn that lesson yet.. Again, I don't give a **** what you and your buddy Jason think of me.. . Just beware of the, "Internet Pitbull"!!! You gave me that title and I sure will stick to it! LOL!

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Oh By the way BDC, are you still running Wooden Motor mounts on your FC??

Seriously, what made you think REAL Wood would be a better choice for motor mounts?

I guess its necessary your "full spectrum" tuning!

Do you have any pics?? Love to see it!

sk8world

iTrader: (5)

Please do not put my name in all this Bullshit.... My car ran fine after the tune, tip , throttle response,, all was fine. I did not make the power I wanted but who ever does!!!

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Lets get Back on Topic!!

Hope "B" doesn't start **** again..

HDP

iTrader: (2)

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

It's time for all of us to have some form of sedative and cool down!

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

Hey chuck are you planing on going to sevenstock? You should have a seminar here is Southern California. I would love to attend one.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Most likely not. Some of the seminar info that is not in my tuning notes package, is now being included. Herblenny and I are working on a posible DVD of the seminar that might be available along with my notes as a package.

twokrx7

iTrader: (1)

I think anyone remotely interested in tweaking their PFC should at least buy Chuck's notes, the session with Chuck was probably just unbelievable as you could ask questions on the complicated stuff. I have played with the PFC and Datalogit since they were released and Chuck and I have compared notes, theories, experiences, and tricks along the way while co-piloting each others cars for actual tuning. If you can take advantage of this knowledge base in any way it will allow you to learn the PFC in no time and you should be able to moderately tune your own idle, cruise, and (1 bar boost or less) full throttle conditions with nothing more than purchase of a starter map(optional), datalogit, and a wideband. Would not everyone like to become a "tuner" and be able to make your own tweaks to the tune as the weather changes or as you add mods?

I also don't know why people pay so much money for an hour or two tune session on full boost only and then complain about driveability or cost. If you want all conditions tuned for you gotta ask the big time tuners and they can do it no problem, it's the customers that don't want to pay for the time to do it all. Let's say you hear it's $300 for a tune, you swallow and decide to just do it, your car is running ok but really it's got fuel issues everywhere and doesn't even pull past the midrange without missing due to afr issues, the boost controller doesn't work right but since you never really pull to redline you really aren't aware of the issues, fuel pressure drops at high rpm but you have no fuel pressure gage to see it ... your $300 tune is now $1000+ to fix all these issues and then tune WOT and you haven't addressed driveability, idle, or cruise. Now you're talking even more bucks if you have weak ignition, wiring harness issues, etc. Gotta pay to play folks, best to pay yourself to do all this IMO because if you own an Rx7 you will likely run into all of these issues eventually.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

^ I think many people are willing to pay good money for tuning. Myself and others (running twins) paid ~$350 + 1 hour of dyno time for Steve's tuning.

The problem is that our options regarding tuners are limited both by geography and us (the general public) potentially not knowing of good local tuners. This and other forums are good means of sharing information on those tuners but the information we have is often constrained by:
1. only the tuners mentioned on these forums
2. political BS other potential mis-information being propogated out of context

All of that being said, I think Chuck's notes are awesome and the information that Chuck, twokdrx7, BDC and Steve have shared with us through the years on the forums is great asset for those of us who want to learn how to tune our own cars.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Here are my 2 cents about why I recommend Chuck and future DVD(s) that I'm working on from Chuck Westbrook seminar.

Like anyone (including so called professional tuners) who tune PFC, started from somewhere.. We don't just born and start tuning.... we learn by following..

1. trial and error - Like science, you give it a shot and see what happens and learn from your mistakes. Some gets lucky and get it right first time and others are dumb luck'd and never learn after many attempts.. Just because some having ton of experience tuning other's cars doesn't mean they are better than others.. Its the approach they take and how scientific they are (Hence why I like and trust Chuck Westbrook... as I'm in the field of science).

2. Research - There are tons of information about tuning on this forum, datalogit message board, etc etc.... Problem is, there are also ton of shitty advices and just plain ton of crap that you have to filter thru to learn. This will take time and most of us on here are lazy and want quick answers to TON of POWAa! Just look at this PFC subforum.. Yikes!!

These two reasons above is why I recommend Chuck... because you know he's qualified (owned an FD since 92 and playing w/ PFC since coming to America) and his notes summarizes the crap load of info about tuning into one nice organized packet.

And when the DVD is ready, you could hear from the master himself (Chuck) and questions asked by some of the veteran FD owners around SE.
Combination of two, you could either get off your *** and try to learn how to tune, or hire so called, "professional" tuners and make sure they are tuning to your expectation! But without not knowing how it works and just spitting out how some Tuners are fantastic because it made power on the dyno is like me not knowing a damn thing about a wine and saying how good a $2 wine from CA, because its Red.

So, GO BUY chuck's notes and when the DVD's ready, buy that and start learning more about tuning!