Power FC Can an expert look over my maps and logs
08-05-10, 03:02 PM
#1
Can an expert look over my maps and logs
Hey everyone, i am by no means an expert in this area and I would just like someone to kinda look over my map and my logs to see ho i am doing. I currently having issues with cruise under light throttle, around 30 mph holding and also around 60mph holding, it will start to go lean until the car begins to buck and hesitate, usually a quick blip of the pedal will fix it. On the highway its not a problem, but in town it sucks sometimes.
You can see on the log areas at cruise where the afr's will go from 13.2 -18.3 then back after a throttle blip.
I figure I just need to go in and add fuel to those areas on the map.
outside of that small issue the car cruises great, pulls incredibly hard compared to my wrx
I know up top is very rich but I'm keeping it safe for now until i can get to a dyno to tune that part, I'm mostly making it enjoyable to drive but if you have a suggestion or safe recommendation for the top end i would try it out.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
The car is an 87 S4 with a very large street port
890cc pri
1000cc sec
BNR stage 4 hybrid
RA super seals
Mallory ignition amp
parallel fuel system with twin in tank walbro 255's (overkill i know)
Thanks!
You can see on the log areas at cruise where the afr's will go from 13.2 -18.3 then back after a throttle blip.
I figure I just need to go in and add fuel to those areas on the map.
outside of that small issue the car cruises great, pulls incredibly hard compared to my wrx
I know up top is very rich but I'm keeping it safe for now until i can get to a dyno to tune that part, I'm mostly making it enjoyable to drive but if you have a suggestion or safe recommendation for the top end i would try it out.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
The car is an 87 S4 with a very large street port
890cc pri
1000cc sec
BNR stage 4 hybrid
RA super seals
Mallory ignition amp
parallel fuel system with twin in tank walbro 255's (overkill i know)
Thanks!
08-05-10, 07:16 PM
#2
I looked at the map. To directly address your concern about sputtering and lean spots, switch to the basemap tab with "Base x INJ" ("base" is fine if you just recalc'd) view then take a look at this area I have highlighted:
Look horizontally across each row. See how, in some rows, the numbers go up and then in some cases drastically go down? That's going to cause some lean spots, especially as the PFC interpolates between cells. Generally speaking, as you look horizontally across the rows you should see the injector pulsewidth increase or stay about the same. That applies from the cruising rpms up through thel very high rpms where volumetric efficiency decreases and less fuel is required. Even in boost I think your map still isn't very smooth, which will cause AFR's to oscillate up and down more. There are some spreadsheets floating around to help with smoothing the fuel map. Check out my base x INJ view (P rows are scaled differently after P10 compared to yours). It's not perfect by any means, but you will see what I mean about a smooth fuel curve.
One area of concern in your map is the Inj vs AirTemp table. Are you using the OEM FD IAT sensor or the Triumph sensor? Either way, you have a high correction factor for the high intake temp range. Now the AFR's do fluctuate with the weather some and that is unavoidable. I'd rather have the engine run richer in the summer a little bit because all of that extra heat increases the risk of detonation. My concern here is that if you tune your car in the summer with this IAT table, during the late fall and winter it may become unacceptably lean (depending on the IAT sensor and its location). You will have to keep an eye on this. I think you will end up adjusting that table more.
Other than that, the timing looks good. You can play around with on the dyno if you like. You have an unusual injector combination (for a PFC anyway) but if you've found that those injector settings work fine then keep them. I see you have been adjusting the tip-in fuel tables in the settings 2 tab. You have to strike a balance between fuel economy and throttle response based on your logging and your own preferences.
I'm trying to look at your log. How do you have your auxiliary input (wideband) configured as far as voltage versus AFR?
Look horizontally across each row. See how, in some rows, the numbers go up and then in some cases drastically go down? That's going to cause some lean spots, especially as the PFC interpolates between cells. Generally speaking, as you look horizontally across the rows you should see the injector pulsewidth increase or stay about the same. That applies from the cruising rpms up through thel very high rpms where volumetric efficiency decreases and less fuel is required. Even in boost I think your map still isn't very smooth, which will cause AFR's to oscillate up and down more. There are some spreadsheets floating around to help with smoothing the fuel map. Check out my base x INJ view (P rows are scaled differently after P10 compared to yours). It's not perfect by any means, but you will see what I mean about a smooth fuel curve.
One area of concern in your map is the Inj vs AirTemp table. Are you using the OEM FD IAT sensor or the Triumph sensor? Either way, you have a high correction factor for the high intake temp range. Now the AFR's do fluctuate with the weather some and that is unavoidable. I'd rather have the engine run richer in the summer a little bit because all of that extra heat increases the risk of detonation. My concern here is that if you tune your car in the summer with this IAT table, during the late fall and winter it may become unacceptably lean (depending on the IAT sensor and its location). You will have to keep an eye on this. I think you will end up adjusting that table more.
Other than that, the timing looks good. You can play around with on the dyno if you like. You have an unusual injector combination (for a PFC anyway) but if you've found that those injector settings work fine then keep them. I see you have been adjusting the tip-in fuel tables in the settings 2 tab. You have to strike a balance between fuel economy and throttle response based on your logging and your own preferences.
I'm trying to look at your log. How do you have your auxiliary input (wideband) configured as far as voltage versus AFR?
08-05-10, 11:22 PM
#3
My wideband is set up as 0 volts = 10 and 4.25 volts = 18.5
its an aem ugeo and this is about the closet i have found to the gauge reading close to the screen. on avg the logs are about .3 from what the gauge is reading.
Yes the injector setup is a little funky. I came from a megasquirt setup and just got tired of using it so i already had the injectors and saw the banzai kits and decided to switch over.
I am using the OEM FD IAT sensor and its tapped into the elbow right before the throttle body. I have never made adjustments to this setting its just at what Banzai gave me in the base map.
I see what you mean with the fuel maps, I will go in and smooth those areas all out. I think that's from the small adjustments I have made working on the cruise trying to lean it out and make it easier to drive.
its an aem ugeo and this is about the closet i have found to the gauge reading close to the screen. on avg the logs are about .3 from what the gauge is reading.
Yes the injector setup is a little funky. I came from a megasquirt setup and just got tired of using it so i already had the injectors and saw the banzai kits and decided to switch over.
I am using the OEM FD IAT sensor and its tapped into the elbow right before the throttle body. I have never made adjustments to this setting its just at what Banzai gave me in the base map.
I see what you mean with the fuel maps, I will go in and smooth those areas all out. I think that's from the small adjustments I have made working on the cruise trying to lean it out and make it easier to drive.
08-06-10, 12:46 AM
#4
Yes the injector setup is a little funky. I came from a megasquirt setup and just got tired of using it so i already had the injectors and saw the banzai kits and decided to switch over.
I am using the OEM FD IAT sensor and its tapped into the elbow right before the throttle body. I have never made adjustments to this setting its just at what Banzai gave me in the base map.
I see what you mean with the fuel maps, I will go in and smooth those areas all out. I think that's from the small adjustments I have made working on the cruise trying to lean it out and make it easier to drive.
08-06-10, 05:20 AM
#5
All Maps that we supply with the adapter kits are just to get you up and running, you will always need to tune the map to your specific vehicle. It is impossible for us to give you a perfectly tuned map without tuning the actual car.
Edit: I just looked at the Map you posted, that is by no means an unaltered base map. You set your secondary transition at 0.10 it should be 1.xx, I see lots of other strange changes as well. No wonder you are having problems.
You are the same person that had your car tuned at some shop that loaded a totally different map.
Edit: I just looked at the Map you posted, that is by no means an unaltered base map. You set your secondary transition at 0.10 it should be 1.xx, I see lots of other strange changes as well. No wonder you are having problems.
You are the same person that had your car tuned at some shop that loaded a totally different map.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 08-06-10 at 05:42 AM.
08-06-10, 11:05 AM
#7
All Maps that we supply with the adapter kits are just to get you up and running, you will always need to tune the map to your specific vehicle. It is impossible for us to give you a perfectly tuned map without tuning the actual car.
Edit: I just looked at the Map you posted, that is by no means an unaltered base map. You set your secondary transition at 0.10 it should be 1.xx, I see lots of other strange changes as well. No wonder you are having problems.
You are the same person that had your car tuned at some shop that loaded a totally different map.
Edit: I just looked at the Map you posted, that is by no means an unaltered base map. You set your secondary transition at 0.10 it should be 1.xx, I see lots of other strange changes as well. No wonder you are having problems.
You are the same person that had your car tuned at some shop that loaded a totally different map.
I don't recall the other Banzai basemaps I've seen having an IAT correction curve like that. Maybe it works fine with their map in the cars they have tested, but once you start fiddling with things all bets are off. Keep an eye on your AFR's as the weather changes, that's all. It could work great or it could change more than you would like.
The Datalogit reads .3 richer or .3 leaner than the UEGO display? In my experience the UEGO does deviate like that. The new AEM wideband with the analog display (sweeping needle, not a digital readout) has a different 0-5v output circuit and it reads more accurately on the Datalogit than the older ones with the digital display.
The "hunt and peck" tuning gets pretty frustrating because you are always running in between cells. What I do is I get one boost level tuned pretty good and then copy and paste all those values into an adjacent boost rows. Then I modify it across the board with the INJ map. So I take everything in say row P17 (base x inj) view. Then I copy that into P18. I know that on my car that under high boost every PIM 1000 needs about an additional 3.5% fuel to maintain the same AFR. So if P17 is 18000 and P18 is 20000, I take all the values and multiply them by an additonal 7% of the original value using the INJ map (set that row to 1.07). It sounds complicated but it isn't. Copy, paste, set INJ map to 1.07 for that row, then repeat. So for the next one I would take the new values in P18 (base x inj view) and copy them to P19. Then I'd set P19 to 1.07 in the INJ map to get my new values. That gets me in the ballpark so my AFR's don't oscillate all over the place as the PFC interpolates between cells.
I noticed you have been making setting changes in the new FC-edit to inj vs accel TPS1, how are those working for you. Do you think that is a much better method then the INJ vs TPS. I have updated from 2.127 to the new 2.128 and saw the change you talked about in that post.
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08-06-10, 03:28 PM
#8
The lower that transition number is, the more gradual the secondary injectors will come online. You can see it by logging Advance InjFrPr and Advance InjFrSc. .100 is pretty much the limit in how low you can go. So with a higher number the primary duty cycle drops more steeply. As for which is better... well I'm of the mind that you should do your own testing and figure out what you prefer for your engine. The majority of engines running a PFC are FD's. The most common injector combinations from what I've seen are
stock 550/850 which are all high impedence
550 with bored out stock secondaries (1200 or 1300cc),
550 with 1600 low impedence secondary and secondary resistors
850/1600
1000/1600, all low impedence.
Some people run a peak-and-hold injector driver. The latest trend is now toward the ID1000 and ID2000 high impedence injectors, which are modified versions of a recent Bosch design. The point here is that your injector setup is unusual, so it can't hurt to experiment.
Just FYI, here is how Mazda stages the injectors on the 2009 Rx-8. Of course there are many differences in that engine compared to your street ported 4 port peripheral exhaust engine, but apparently this strategy worked.
I think it has helped some at least over my old settings. I still get a really slight stumble if I just barely tap the gas pedal (I'm talking really slightly) after cruising down hill. I may be able to improve that a little more with some additional tuning, but there's always the risk of over compensating and wasting fuel. With bigger porting and an aftermarket computer you can't expect it to drive as smoothly as it might have off the showroom floor. You just have to go for incremental improvements.
I zero'd out part of the INJ vs TPS map when I made my latest Inj vs Accel TPS1 adjustments. Here are my latest settings as of a few days ago:
I know my IAT table looks weird (all cells are above 1.00) , but I just kept playing with it over time and made it work. I am also using the Triumph sensor, which is an exposed element sensor like the GM IAT and the factory FC3S IAT sensor in the elbow.
stock 550/850 which are all high impedence
550 with bored out stock secondaries (1200 or 1300cc),
550 with 1600 low impedence secondary and secondary resistors
850/1600
1000/1600, all low impedence.
Some people run a peak-and-hold injector driver. The latest trend is now toward the ID1000 and ID2000 high impedence injectors, which are modified versions of a recent Bosch design. The point here is that your injector setup is unusual, so it can't hurt to experiment.
Just FYI, here is how Mazda stages the injectors on the 2009 Rx-8. Of course there are many differences in that engine compared to your street ported 4 port peripheral exhaust engine, but apparently this strategy worked.
I noticed you have been making setting changes in the new FC-edit to inj vs accel TPS1, how are those working for you. Do you think that is a much better method then the INJ vs TPS. I have updated from 2.127 to the new 2.128 and saw the change you talked about in that post.
I zero'd out part of the INJ vs TPS map when I made my latest Inj vs Accel TPS1 adjustments. Here are my latest settings as of a few days ago:
I know my IAT table looks weird (all cells are above 1.00) , but I just kept playing with it over time and made it work. I am also using the Triumph sensor, which is an exposed element sensor like the GM IAT and the factory FC3S IAT sensor in the elbow.
08-22-10, 11:44 AM
#9
smoothed out the fuel map and made adjustments to air temp correction, idle has smoothed out on afr and not so jumpy. Car is running smoother but I am still adjusting it as needed. I know it will never run as smooth as a untouched RX-7 especially with my injector setup
08-22-10, 07:25 PM
#10
looks good overall. The air temp, tip-in, idle stuff, and in your case injector settings could take a lot of fiddling. your maps are smooth though and the oscillations should be minimal. Now that everything is pretty smooth you can now go into your INJ map and make broad changes to richen and lean up areas if you choose to.
Keep an eye on signs of knock.
Keep an eye on signs of knock.
06-28-11, 08:21 PM
#11
The "hunt and peck" tuning gets pretty frustrating because you are always running in between cells. What I do is I get one boost level tuned pretty good and then copy and paste all those values into an adjacent boost rows. Then I modify it across the board with the INJ map. So I take everything in say row P17 (base x inj) view. Then I copy that into P18. I know that on my car that under high boost every PIM 1000 needs about an additional 3.5% fuel to maintain the same AFR. So if P17 is 18000 and P18 is 20000, I take all the values and multiply them by an additonal 7% of the original value using the INJ map (set that row to 1.07). It sounds complicated but it isn't. Copy, paste, set INJ map to 1.07 for that row, then repeat. So for the next one I would take the new values in P18 (base x inj view) and copy them to P19. Then I'd set P19 to 1.07 in the INJ map to get my new values. That gets me in the ballpark so my AFR's don't oscillate all over the place as the PFC interpolates between cells.
06-29-11, 04:32 PM
#12
Tweaking is still necessary but that 3.5% has been a solid starting point for me. How much additional fuel the engine requires is still going to depend on how the efficiency of the engine and turbo changes with various boost levels. You can simply give it a try. No guarantees though.
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