Engine Building Thoughts
#101
Rotary Enthusiast
Perfect sounds good. But for the record, is it truely more cost effective to rebuild an engien before it is blown( i am assumign so)? and can these core be stored for periods of time? Thanks
#102
Lives on the Forum
iTrader: (8)
If the rebuilder intends to reuse most of the major internals, yes it would be cheaper to catch it before it goes. IF the builder intends to simply start from a mazda reman and send your old one back to satisfy the core, I dont see why it would matter, since you incur no extra part replacement costs.
Most of the time what I see is when cores sit for a long time (in or out of the car) the seals stick, specifically side seals. Especially on water seal motors...just a couple of months without weekly startup can yeild all the internals rusted beyond use.
Most of the time what I see is when cores sit for a long time (in or out of the car) the seals stick, specifically side seals. Especially on water seal motors...just a couple of months without weekly startup can yeild all the internals rusted beyond use.
#103
Originally Posted by apexFD
Perfect sounds good. But for the record, is it truely more cost effective to rebuild an engien before it is blown( i am assumign so)? and can these core be stored for periods of time? Thanks
Whenever I store an engine, used or new, I like to shoot some WD-40 in the ports periodically when rotating it over, press on every apex seal as it comes across the exhaust port and cover all the openings with stainless covers, plastic plugs or even just tape...anything to prevent dust or worse from getting in.
As for rebuilding engines, yes, a running core is typically ideal, but even those can have expensive problems...theoretically, any or every part could just be out of spec and require replacement. Oil leakers or water leakers can be good candidates if torn down shortly after failure. Blown up cores usually mean a rotor housing and rotor are write-offs, but if you are replacing the rotor housings anyway, the added expense is only the cost of a used replacement rotor. Really, what you want is a *low miles* motor, almost regardless of whether it is running or not...just as long as it was not overheated severely or was a water leaker that was left to sit and rust. Rebuilding a previously rebuilt motor can be a gamble too. Often times you will find a whole lot of worn out parts that probably should not have been reused in the first place, let alone so much farther down the road. If the plates have already been lapped, you might not be able to lap them again if needed, or you may find it was not done well to begin with. Lots of variables. This is part of the attraction of rebuilding a fresh Mazda Reman. Mazda seems to spare no expense in replacing parts with brand new stuff but they can't seem to manage to assemble one without making mistakes, so it's best considered a nicely packaged collection of parts you are purchasing as a core for rebuilding.
It will probably cost less to rebuild your low-miles, running core than to buy a Mazda Reman and have us go through it, but the difference in cost will be fairly small and the convenience of it will easily make it worth while for most people. However, also keep in mind that Mazda Remans are in short supply and it can sometimes take months to get one. Availability changes but right now it's tight. We constantly have them on-order, just in anticipation of customer needs.
If you blow an apex seal, keep in mind that (1) you *must* identify and correct the problem that caused it and (2) apex seal pieces and other debris are often thrown back up the intake tract, where it will then get sucked in by the replacement motor unless you thoroughly clean every nook and cranny of every part of the intake tract with a fine-tooth-comb. But the best cure is prevention. If you freshen up a running engine, you typically save a lot of time and effort on the installation end.
#105
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
Blake, you've seen evidence of apex seal debris being spit up into the intake manifolds? I've seen many cases of FOD on turbines, but never manifolds.
[EDIT: I mistakenly said "corner seal", when I meant "apex seal end piece". Corrected above.]
Last edited by Blake; 10-23-06 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Mistakenly said corner seal when I meant apex seal end piece...
#106
Hi Blake,
Firstly, great thread, has made for some very informative reading.
I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more about the oil modifications you've mentioned a couple of times, i'll be having a rebuild in the coming months so would be interested in having these mods done, thats if there not a trade secret type thing
Oh, one other thing, and considering im having the engine rebuilt it might be a bit pointless but ill ask it anyway. My engines been sat for a year now without being used, and was a runner with no probs beforehand, I never planned on being off the road for so long so never prepped the engine for storage/sitting (I assume it would have been best to drain all the fluids, etc), is this likely to have caused any problems?
Ah, one more, promise its the last, do you happen to know how much that cermet A coating is, the JHB website seems to be down at the moment. My plan is cermet coated housings rather than new and some NRS ceramic seals. I think you said nearly cost of new housing so roughly $700-$800?
Cheers
Andy
Firstly, great thread, has made for some very informative reading.
I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more about the oil modifications you've mentioned a couple of times, i'll be having a rebuild in the coming months so would be interested in having these mods done, thats if there not a trade secret type thing
Oh, one other thing, and considering im having the engine rebuilt it might be a bit pointless but ill ask it anyway. My engines been sat for a year now without being used, and was a runner with no probs beforehand, I never planned on being off the road for so long so never prepped the engine for storage/sitting (I assume it would have been best to drain all the fluids, etc), is this likely to have caused any problems?
Ah, one more, promise its the last, do you happen to know how much that cermet A coating is, the JHB website seems to be down at the moment. My plan is cermet coated housings rather than new and some NRS ceramic seals. I think you said nearly cost of new housing so roughly $700-$800?
Cheers
Andy
#107
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13B Race Motor Life
Blake, what do you think is going on with a Darryl Drummond sealed 13B in my Formula Mazda that suddenly started detonating last weekend with 17 hours (1600 miles) on it? I assume it's detonating; it makes a machine gun sound in all gears from 4K to 6800 (rev limit). I barely heard a hint in a practice session, then it started coming on strong at 5500 rpm in the 25 minute qualifying session and then was starting as low as 4K in the race. I know I should have parked it, but.........well, denial is a powerful thing. But, I was surprised that it kept pulling; lap times remained about the same thru the race as they were in practice and qualifying.
As for external conditions: I managed to avoid hot weather this year (water never got over 200 F and oil was about the same). I use Chevron or 76 pump gas (91) with these additives: The first 8 hours I added 1) Redline 2 stroke at 1/2 oz per gal and 2) 110 or 112 race gas at at ratio of 1.5 gal race gas and 3.5 gal pump gas per session. The last 9-10 hours I used Blendzall 485 Gold Label at 1 oz per gal. So, is this a case of a single blown seal or broken spring or what else failed so quickly?
Thanks for all the information.
Ted
Shoe String Racing
As for external conditions: I managed to avoid hot weather this year (water never got over 200 F and oil was about the same). I use Chevron or 76 pump gas (91) with these additives: The first 8 hours I added 1) Redline 2 stroke at 1/2 oz per gal and 2) 110 or 112 race gas at at ratio of 1.5 gal race gas and 3.5 gal pump gas per session. The last 9-10 hours I used Blendzall 485 Gold Label at 1 oz per gal. So, is this a case of a single blown seal or broken spring or what else failed so quickly?
Thanks for all the information.
Ted
Shoe String Racing
Last edited by FM #13; 11-05-06 at 01:02 AM.
#108
Originally Posted by ScuttleRX
Hi Blake,
Firstly, great thread, has made for some very informative reading.
I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more about the oil modifications you've mentioned a couple of times, i'll be having a rebuild in the coming months so would be interested in having these mods done, thats if there not a trade secret type thing
Oh, one other thing, and considering im having the engine rebuilt it might be a bit pointless but ill ask it anyway. My engines been sat for a year now without being used, and was a runner with no probs beforehand, I never planned on being off the road for so long so never prepped the engine for storage/sitting (I assume it would have been best to drain all the fluids, etc), is this likely to have caused any problems?
Ah, one more, promise its the last, do you happen to know how much that cermet A coating is, the JHB website seems to be down at the moment. My plan is cermet coated housings rather than new and some NRS ceramic seals. I think you said nearly cost of new housing so roughly $700-$800?
Cheers
Andy
Firstly, great thread, has made for some very informative reading.
I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more about the oil modifications you've mentioned a couple of times, i'll be having a rebuild in the coming months so would be interested in having these mods done, thats if there not a trade secret type thing
Oh, one other thing, and considering im having the engine rebuilt it might be a bit pointless but ill ask it anyway. My engines been sat for a year now without being used, and was a runner with no probs beforehand, I never planned on being off the road for so long so never prepped the engine for storage/sitting (I assume it would have been best to drain all the fluids, etc), is this likely to have caused any problems?
Ah, one more, promise its the last, do you happen to know how much that cermet A coating is, the JHB website seems to be down at the moment. My plan is cermet coated housings rather than new and some NRS ceramic seals. I think you said nearly cost of new housing so roughly $700-$800?
Cheers
Andy
#109
Thanks Blake, I did think it would be a bit secret squirrel
It will be a few months before im rebuilding so keep on at him for that manual!
Thanks for your reply
Andy
It will be a few months before im rebuilding so keep on at him for that manual!
Thanks for your reply
Andy
#110
Originally Posted by FM #13
Blake, what do you think is going on with a Darryl Drummond sealed 13B in my Formula Mazda that suddenly started detonating last weekend with 17 hours (1600 miles) on it? I assume it's detonating; it makes a machine gun sound in all gears from 4K to 6800 (rev limit). I barely heard a hint in a practice session, then it started coming on strong at 5500 rpm in the 25 minute qualifying session and then was starting as low as 4K in the race. I know I should have parked it, but.........well, denial is a powerful thing. But, I was surprised that it kept pulling; lap times remained about the same thru the race as they were in practice and qualifying.
As for external conditions: I managed to avoid hot weather this year (water never got over 200 F and oil was about the same). I use Chevron or 76 pump gas (91) with these additives: The first 8 hours I added 1) Redline 2 stroke at 1/2 oz per gal and 2) 110 or 112 race gas at at ratio of 1.5 gal race gas and 3.5 gal pump gas per session. The last 9-10 hours I used Blendzall 485 Gold Label at 1 oz per gal. So, is this a case of a single blown seal or broken spring or what else failed so quickly?
Thanks for all the information.
Ted
Shoe String Racing
As for external conditions: I managed to avoid hot weather this year (water never got over 200 F and oil was about the same). I use Chevron or 76 pump gas (91) with these additives: The first 8 hours I added 1) Redline 2 stroke at 1/2 oz per gal and 2) 110 or 112 race gas at at ratio of 1.5 gal race gas and 3.5 gal pump gas per session. The last 9-10 hours I used Blendzall 485 Gold Label at 1 oz per gal. So, is this a case of a single blown seal or broken spring or what else failed so quickly?
Thanks for all the information.
Ted
Shoe String Racing
#111
Oil burner.
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Great thread!
Alright, I am loving this... I wish I had the time for this but between working at a Mercedes-Benz dealership (that's right I'm bragging, ASE master and advanced engine diag and master certified by Mercedes) and dealing with those headaches and having a girlfriend(who is wonderful ), and everything else(dog, housework, etc.), I've put everything on hold. Anyway I've been out of the rotary scene for a while now, and I am reading up on things and learning. I have a couple questions...I have a 91 I am rebuilding, aventually, which will be a just keep it together rebuild while I work on my Honda(I know, I can hardly believe it myself).
#1- Can I run s4 rotors with the s5 fuel injection? (I heard it would not run, but I am thinking why not?(all my better judgement is telling me it can but Murphy's law is always there.)
#2- Just mainly for my own knowing... Will renesis rotors work in a s5 motor?
#3- How can you, if it is even possible, tell the s4 and s5 counterwieghts apart?(in case #1 happens).
#4-Can the 3piece apex seals be resued? I don't like the design or even the idea, but as a cost effective build, can it be done(with success)?
#5- How much are corner seal springs? And for an na motor do you recommend the fd corner seal springs?
#6- Any recommendations on how to try to remove side seals that are stuck, or is the rotor now officially a paperweight?
#7- If a rotor has been damaged by a seal that acted as a tornado in a trailer park, can it be used if the protruding edges and metal is filed down very carefully?
#8- How do you remove the rotor gear? Long thin punch?I want to attempt a project that isn't even motor related, but more interior design related.
I will probably have others but for now thats it. I gave the rotaries up for better gas mileage and then liked the Honda, but a lady on the cell phone, more than a year ago ran into me and screwed up the front, I have been driving it since messed up and I think its time to fix it myself.
Stephen
#1- Can I run s4 rotors with the s5 fuel injection? (I heard it would not run, but I am thinking why not?(all my better judgement is telling me it can but Murphy's law is always there.)
#2- Just mainly for my own knowing... Will renesis rotors work in a s5 motor?
#3- How can you, if it is even possible, tell the s4 and s5 counterwieghts apart?(in case #1 happens).
#4-Can the 3piece apex seals be resued? I don't like the design or even the idea, but as a cost effective build, can it be done(with success)?
#5- How much are corner seal springs? And for an na motor do you recommend the fd corner seal springs?
#6- Any recommendations on how to try to remove side seals that are stuck, or is the rotor now officially a paperweight?
#7- If a rotor has been damaged by a seal that acted as a tornado in a trailer park, can it be used if the protruding edges and metal is filed down very carefully?
#8- How do you remove the rotor gear? Long thin punch?I want to attempt a project that isn't even motor related, but more interior design related.
I will probably have others but for now thats it. I gave the rotaries up for better gas mileage and then liked the Honda, but a lady on the cell phone, more than a year ago ran into me and screwed up the front, I have been driving it since messed up and I think its time to fix it myself.
Stephen
#113
Dork
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I wish there was a rotary specialist with your abilities in my area. Sigh, oh well. I was wondering if you had any information about auxilary bridgeports, i.e. bridgeporting the 5th and 6th ports on a n/a S5. Similarly, have you ever come across something like a semi-peripheral port? I was thinking about peripheral ports that are actuated at sufficiently high rpms, much like the aux ports. It would be great to be able to keep the low end performance while gaining big high end.
This thread is excellent. Thanks!
This thread is excellent. Thanks!
#114
Originally Posted by DreamWoRX
Alright, I am loving this... I wish I had the time for this but between working at a Mercedes-Benz dealership (that's right I'm bragging, ASE master and advanced engine diag and master certified by Mercedes) and dealing with those headaches and having a girlfriend(who is wonderful ), and everything else(dog, housework, etc.), I've put everything on hold. Anyway I've been out of the rotary scene for a while now, and I am reading up on things and learning. I have a couple questions...I have a 91 I am rebuilding, aventually, which will be a just keep it together rebuild while I work on my Honda(I know, I can hardly believe it myself).
#1- Can I run s4 rotors with the s5 fuel injection? (I heard it would not run, but I am thinking why not?(all my better judgement is telling me it can but Murphy's law is always there.)
#2- Just mainly for my own knowing... Will renesis rotors work in a s5 motor?
#3- How can you, if it is even possible, tell the s4 and s5 counterwieghts apart?(in case #1 happens).
#4-Can the 3piece apex seals be resued? I don't like the design or even the idea, but as a cost effective build, can it be done(with success)?
#5- How much are corner seal springs? And for an na motor do you recommend the fd corner seal springs?
#6- Any recommendations on how to try to remove side seals that are stuck, or is the rotor now officially a paperweight?
#7- If a rotor has been damaged by a seal that acted as a tornado in a trailer park, can it be used if the protruding edges and metal is filed down very carefully?
#8- How do you remove the rotor gear? Long thin punch?I want to attempt a project that isn't even motor related, but more interior design related.
I will probably have others but for now thats it. I gave the rotaries up for better gas mileage and then liked the Honda, but a lady on the cell phone, more than a year ago ran into me and screwed up the front, I have been driving it since messed up and I think its time to fix it myself.
Stephen
#1- Can I run s4 rotors with the s5 fuel injection? (I heard it would not run, but I am thinking why not?(all my better judgement is telling me it can but Murphy's law is always there.)
#2- Just mainly for my own knowing... Will renesis rotors work in a s5 motor?
#3- How can you, if it is even possible, tell the s4 and s5 counterwieghts apart?(in case #1 happens).
#4-Can the 3piece apex seals be resued? I don't like the design or even the idea, but as a cost effective build, can it be done(with success)?
#5- How much are corner seal springs? And for an na motor do you recommend the fd corner seal springs?
#6- Any recommendations on how to try to remove side seals that are stuck, or is the rotor now officially a paperweight?
#7- If a rotor has been damaged by a seal that acted as a tornado in a trailer park, can it be used if the protruding edges and metal is filed down very carefully?
#8- How do you remove the rotor gear? Long thin punch?I want to attempt a project that isn't even motor related, but more interior design related.
I will probably have others but for now thats it. I gave the rotaries up for better gas mileage and then liked the Honda, but a lady on the cell phone, more than a year ago ran into me and screwed up the front, I have been driving it since messed up and I think its time to fix it myself.
Stephen
(2) Will work; no proven improvement.
(3) Weight is S5=1820g and S4=1840g or so for rear (a/t). Front S5 = 1186g; S4 = 1264g.
(4) If not too worn.
(5) $3.10 for the FD springs. I don't even know the cost of the earlier ones, since they are NEVER used for any reason whatsoever.
(6) WD-40 & slight heating & patience
(7) If all the seals move freely, clearance is correct and balance correct, perhaps. But, why not get a used rotor? Why put a questionable part in?
(8) If damage doesn't matter, weld metal across gear and press out.
#115
Originally Posted by DarkKnightFC
What do you think the compatibility of these coatings and Alky injection might amount to? I doubt the Alky is corrosive to ceramic but its a possibility.
Chris
Chris
#117
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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I had my car up on jacks with the exhaust manifold off for a couple months while I was working on a turbo project, now I have a stuck apex seal. The car ran perfectly fine before I put it up on jacks for the project. The motor was rebuilt about 6000 miles ago by Kevin Landers. There is one apex seal stuck on the front rotor, and all of the rest on the front and rear rotors feel/look great, nice and springy. My question is, would it be possible for me to just remove the front rotor and replace the one apex seal (assuming the rest really are fine) without having to take the entire engine apart? And if so, which components MUST i replace when doing this? I have no experience doing this, and I will be working with my father who has experience building engines, but he has no experience with rotaries. We plan on using the FSM and a rebuild DVD.
thanks!
Tom
thanks!
Tom
#118
Originally Posted by DarkKnightFC
What about this Polydyne? coating that Turblown offers?
Chris
Chris
#119
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Problems with a Formula Mazda
Hi Blake, I have talked to Darryl Drummond and detailed more of my investigation of what I thought is detonation in this thread
Before I try Darryl's suggested decarbonizing treatment, I may as well throw on a new set of coils and elimiate cross fire first?
Also, if it's not detonation or cross fire, and it is carbon deposits, is it pre-igniting? Any other observations or opinions you'd care to offer would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Ted
Before I try Darryl's suggested decarbonizing treatment, I may as well throw on a new set of coils and elimiate cross fire first?
Also, if it's not detonation or cross fire, and it is carbon deposits, is it pre-igniting? Any other observations or opinions you'd care to offer would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Ted
#120
Originally Posted by FM #13
Hi Blake, I have talked to Darryl Drummond and detailed more of my investigation of what I thought is detonation in this thread
Before I try Darryl's suggested decarbonizing treatment, I may as well throw on a new set of coils and elimiate cross fire first?
Also, if it's not detonation or cross fire, and it is carbon deposits, is it pre-igniting? Any other observations or opinions you'd care to offer would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Ted
Before I try Darryl's suggested decarbonizing treatment, I may as well throw on a new set of coils and elimiate cross fire first?
Also, if it's not detonation or cross fire, and it is carbon deposits, is it pre-igniting? Any other observations or opinions you'd care to offer would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Ted
#121
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FM problems
Hi Blake, thanks for the perspective.
Agreed. But since I was going to run a couple laps on track to get the motor up to temp before I try the treatment, changing the coils first would be the easiest thing to do at home. Who knows, maybe it is the coils and I'll be done?
Just to be clear, I have the mid -80s (2nd gen right?) 13B in a standard FM. The Renesis is really only in the Pro FM.
I'm not at all clear on what carbon buildups do. I hear the word stuck seal and I would assume that means the seal is stuck open, but I'm seeing 1/2 to 1 mm movement on all 6 seals, so they're not "stuck" per se. I'll be calling Darryl tomorrow, but your take is always welcome.
Thanks again.
Ted
As for replacing the coils, I would say just try one thing at a time and start with the easiest one first. Next to not solving a problem, fixing it without knowing what you did is the most unsatisfactory feeling on earth. !
Darryl knows these RENESIS FM race motors
I'm not at all clear on what carbon buildups do. I hear the word stuck seal and I would assume that means the seal is stuck open, but I'm seeing 1/2 to 1 mm movement on all 6 seals, so they're not "stuck" per se. I'll be calling Darryl tomorrow, but your take is always welcome.
Thanks again.
Ted
#122
Originally Posted by FM #13
Just to be clear, I have the mid -80s (2nd gen right?) 13B in a standard FM. The Renesis is really only in the Pro FM.
I'm not at all clear on what carbon buildups do. I hear the word stuck seal and I would assume that means the seal is stuck open, but I'm seeing 1/2 to 1 mm movement on all 6 seals, so they're not "stuck" per se. I'll be calling Darryl tomorrow, but your take is always welcome.
#123
Rotary Enthusiast
If your engine has a small street port... Do you have to use all avaiable power, or can you tune your engine to run just above stock power? I guess as long as the air/fuel ratio isnt too rich or too lean, you will be fine? Also can you breifly explain air fuel ratios, like why exactly a lean mixture is bad, and how to get the correct air/fuel ratio. thanks, i hope my questions arnt too vauge.
#125
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Hey Blake
Thanks for the rotor housing and the rotor we got from you guys when we stopped by last week they are on the shop bench.Josh’s FDR2 is on the truck from Florida.
What is your opinion on premixing feul with the 3rd gen and on my Rx8?
Thanks for all of the info
Ron
Thanks for the rotor housing and the rotor we got from you guys when we stopped by last week they are on the shop bench.Josh’s FDR2 is on the truck from Florida.
What is your opinion on premixing feul with the 3rd gen and on my Rx8?
Thanks for all of the info
Ron