Engine Building Thoughts
#51
Cermet Questions
Originally Posted by Blake
Great combo. We built a motor for Marc at JHB a while back with Cermet A coated everything and NRS grey seals. It wasn't even broken it yet and tested over 124psi compression, IIRC. Ceramic on ceramic is a nice way to go.
Does it make sense to use new housings($800 sheesh) and coating them in cermet or is using used housings the way to go since coating costs about as much as a new housing and it will have a nice new cermet surface anyway?
Oh and when you say cermet coated everything what does that include? Rotor housings, side housings, rotor faces anything else?
Heres an interesting question. Say you have a fully coated engine and you ping it once and the seals survive, is it possible though that the detonation could crack and flake off a piece of the cermet which then takes out a seal? I think I remmember reading somewhere that the cermet coating process bonds the cermet very well to the housing so maybe it wouldn't. But have you ever heard of cermet flaking at all even after detonation?
Any thoughts on Cryo treatment? Or even cryo treatment with cermet?
#52
Originally Posted by classicauto
So, to answer the customers inquiry....
There really isn't much of any type of porting that would be very beneficial (from a purely power based standpoint) to the RENESIS style engine? even a streetport?
Or have they *pretty much* maxed out the flow capability of the porting and manifolds from the factory?
There really isn't much of any type of porting that would be very beneficial (from a purely power based standpoint) to the RENESIS style engine? even a streetport?
Or have they *pretty much* maxed out the flow capability of the porting and manifolds from the factory?
#53
Originally Posted by Juiceh
Awesome! Ever get any feedback from Marc as to how well the engine is holding up? Any compression numbers after full break in or after some decent mileage?
Does it make sense to use new housings($800 sheesh) and coating them in cermet or is using used housings the way to go since coating costs about as much as a new housing and it will have a nice new cermet surface anyway?
Oh and when you say cermet coated everything what does that include? Rotor housings, side housings, rotor faces anything else?
Heres an interesting question. Say you have a fully coated engine and you ping it once and the seals survive, is it possible though that the detonation could crack and flake off a piece of the cermet which then takes out a seal? I think I remmember reading somewhere that the cermet coating process bonds the cermet very well to the housing so maybe it wouldn't. But have you ever heard of cermet flaking at all even after detonation?
Any thoughts on Cryo treatment? Or even cryo treatment with cermet?
#54
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iTrader: (7)
Joined: Dec 2003
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Likes: 9
From: Temple, Texas (Central)
So just how deep is too deep to be salvagable on the housings? When I talked with someone from JHB they said they just machined it down until it was even. I'm just asking because on parts of the edges of my housings there is a noticable groove where the chrome is gone, something like the thickness of my thumb nail or so.
#55
Originally Posted by Sideways7
So just how deep is too deep to be salvagable on the housings? When I talked with someone from JHB they said they just machined it down until it was even. I'm just asking because on parts of the edges of my housings there is a noticable groove where the chrome is gone, something like the thickness of my thumb nail or so.
#56
Cryo Treatment along with cermet coating and apex seals
Mr. Blake
I have very carefully read over and over your explanation of the cermet coating process and of the different apex seals.
1) what are the effects of cryo-treating apex seals besides them becoming somewhat stronger(am i wrong on this?): metallic and ceramic
2) what are some pro's and cons on cryo-treating engine parts? as i am very much in the dark of the treatment and have only heard that it makes engines much more tolerable to wear particularly extending engine life somewhat.
3) I have heard theories about making torque on the 13Bs. what is your personal experience on making low-end torque on a turbo 13B?
I applaud you.
i appreciate your abundance of knowledge on the rotary and appreciate it even more that you are extending your knowledge to everyone on this forum.
I have very carefully read over and over your explanation of the cermet coating process and of the different apex seals.
1) what are the effects of cryo-treating apex seals besides them becoming somewhat stronger(am i wrong on this?): metallic and ceramic
2) what are some pro's and cons on cryo-treating engine parts? as i am very much in the dark of the treatment and have only heard that it makes engines much more tolerable to wear particularly extending engine life somewhat.
3) I have heard theories about making torque on the 13Bs. what is your personal experience on making low-end torque on a turbo 13B?
I applaud you.
i appreciate your abundance of knowledge on the rotary and appreciate it even more that you are extending your knowledge to everyone on this forum.
Last edited by cptpain; 09-28-06 at 07:31 PM.
#57
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iTrader: (7)
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,598
Likes: 9
From: Temple, Texas (Central)
Originally Posted by cptpain
I applaud you.
i appreciate your abundance of knowledge on the rotary and appreciate it even more that you are extending your knowledge to everyone on this forum.
i appreciate your abundance of knowledge on the rotary and appreciate it even more that you are extending your knowledge to everyone on this forum.
#58
Originally Posted by cptpain
1) what are the effects of cryo-treating apex seals besides them becoming somewhat stronger(am i wrong on this?): metallic and ceramic
2) what are some pro's and cons on cryo-treating engine parts? as i am very much in the dark of the treatment and have only heard that it makes engines much more tolerable to wear particularly extending engine life somewhat.
3) I have heard theories about making torque on the 13Bs. what is your personal experience on making low-end torque on a turbo 13B?
#60
Originally Posted by Rotory Revalution
a silly question but what would you recomend for internal parts cleaning when doing a rebuild also this is a little off the general topic. do u carry master rebuild kits and at what price.
As for offering rebuild kits, yes we do. I haven't put much of anything on the website yet, apart from an FD kit, but I can certainly do so for any rotary engine. The best thing to do is call me on the phone and I can talk you through all the options. Everything we offer is a Mazda OEM part, except for our own optional Heavy Duty water seals and NRS ceramic apex seals. No aftermarket metallic apex seals or Viton oil control o-rings, all of which which we have found to be exceptionally poor substitutes for the real thing. If you would like a quote, call me at (503) 233-3878 during business hours.
#64
Originally Posted by stylEmon
Blake,
Why do so many people increase overlap on turbocharged rotaries?
Why do so many people increase overlap on turbocharged rotaries?
The downside to adding overlap on a turbo motor is that you lose some boost out the tailpipe at lower RPM. So, perhaps you bolt on a bigger turbo and run higher boost, but that means lag and a spikey powerband. The farther you go, the bigger the tradeoffs.
Personally, I like a little more overlap on a turbo motor than the stock ports, but I don't like bridgeports on turbo motors. Too many people think that if a little is good, more is better. Please. I'm not saying there are not certain potential gains that can potentially be advantageous in limited circumstances, but you can do a LOT with a nice streetport with hardly any tradeoffs and it's foolish to tread farther for such monumental tradeoffs...unless you are racing for money and your goals are very, very, very limited, etc. That's just my opinion. People do all kinds of foolish (IMHO) things for a big peak HP number or because it seems cool (extreeeeeeme duuuuuuude!) or whatever. Not my style.
90% of the time, if not more, I believe bridgeport turbo engines are all about ego and not results. Perhaps I'm not being fair, but opinions rarely are. I also have no problem with people who admit their ego trips, just as I don't begrudge those who keep their cars totally stock or those that put $10,000 into their car stereos. Do what turns you on. I'm just more of a bang-for-the-buck and streetable performance guy.
#65
Blake, a couple quick questions...
First off, I have heard good things about Pineapple..Keep up the good work..As a friend of Rick Engman (Jim Downing's engine builder) I have done a few rebuilds myself. However, I have always wondered what kind of porting is availible for the 6 port motors. Is it worth the time and effort? Mazdatrix flat out won't do it and really won't give me an answer other than saying it's not worth it and Rick is too busy with Jim's Motors to really even consider thinking about it. I am looking at picking up a GTUs shortly and getting a spare S4 6 port motor to play with...What would you suggest?...Thanks in advance for your reply..
#67
Originally Posted by Quicker10u
First off, I have heard good things about Pineapple..Keep up the good work..As a friend of Rick Engman (Jim Downing's engine builder) I have done a few rebuilds myself. However, I have always wondered what kind of porting is availible for the 6 port motors. Is it worth the time and effort? Mazdatrix flat out won't do it and really won't give me an answer other than saying it's not worth it and Rick is too busy with Jim's Motors to really even consider thinking about it. I am looking at picking up a GTUs shortly and getting a spare S4 6 port motor to play with...What would you suggest?...Thanks in advance for your reply..
#68
Thanks for your reply..Now are there any difference in S4-S5 Motors when it comes to rebuilds?..Are they internally different, or is it just the external (Intake etc) that changed?
Those are impressive numbers!..I would love to see a graph..This forum is a very useful tool. Thanks again..
Those are impressive numbers!..I would love to see a graph..This forum is a very useful tool. Thanks again..
#69
Originally Posted by Quicker10u
Thanks for your reply..Now are there any difference in S4-S5 Motors when it comes to rebuilds?..Are they internally different, or is it just the external (Intake etc) that changed?
Those are impressive numbers!..I would love to see a graph..This forum is a very useful tool. Thanks again..
Again, this is an S4 car with an S5 engine, large streetport, 6-port inserts, oil mods, S-AFC, full Racing Beat exhaust.
#70
^wow and thats on a Mustang Dyno, aren't those notorious for reading like 10-20% lower than the actual power? Thats impressive for an NA.
Blake what are your thoughts on Beveling rotors?
Blake what are your thoughts on Beveling rotors?
#71
Originally Posted by Juiceh
^wow and thats on a Mustang Dyno, aren't those notorious for reading like 10-20% lower than the actual power? Thats impressive for an NA.
Blake what are your thoughts on Beveling rotors?
Blake what are your thoughts on Beveling rotors?
#72
First of all I would like to say this is an awesome thread!!
I have a few questions about the setup im building and am looking for a few suggestions. I am building a Turbo S5 motor, and my goal is to get 400-450 RWHP out of it, im going to streetport the engine, and im going to be using a 60-1 turbo, microtech LT10s, HKS wastegate, greddy turbo manifold, HKS SSQV bov, HKS FMIC, etc etc etc. And this is all going into my widebody FB which is intended to be a streetable car when it is completed.
My questions are about the engine im going to build for it.
Im going to purchase a S5 core and I plan on tearing it down, buying new S4 rotors, new S5 housings, all OEM seals, etc. What is your opinion on high tensile strength dowel pins, for 500 hp at the flywheel is it really worth it? Is there a place you recommend getting porting templates from? At what horsepower level would you recommend hardened stationary gears? Would you recommend doing any oil pump modifications? I was thinking about going with a oil pan baffel as well. Im interested to hear your suggestion for engine modifications for a horsepower goal like this.
Thank you I really appreciate your advise!
Dan_s_young
I have a few questions about the setup im building and am looking for a few suggestions. I am building a Turbo S5 motor, and my goal is to get 400-450 RWHP out of it, im going to streetport the engine, and im going to be using a 60-1 turbo, microtech LT10s, HKS wastegate, greddy turbo manifold, HKS SSQV bov, HKS FMIC, etc etc etc. And this is all going into my widebody FB which is intended to be a streetable car when it is completed.
My questions are about the engine im going to build for it.
Im going to purchase a S5 core and I plan on tearing it down, buying new S4 rotors, new S5 housings, all OEM seals, etc. What is your opinion on high tensile strength dowel pins, for 500 hp at the flywheel is it really worth it? Is there a place you recommend getting porting templates from? At what horsepower level would you recommend hardened stationary gears? Would you recommend doing any oil pump modifications? I was thinking about going with a oil pan baffel as well. Im interested to hear your suggestion for engine modifications for a horsepower goal like this.
Thank you I really appreciate your advise!
Dan_s_young
Last edited by Dan_s_young; 10-08-06 at 07:22 PM.
#73
Originally Posted by Dan_s_young
First of all I would like to say this is an awesome thread!!
I have a few questions about the setup im building and am looking for a few suggestions. I am building a Turbo S5 motor, and my goal is to get 400-450 RWHP out of it, im going to streetport the engine, and im going to be using a 60-1 turbo, microtech LT10s, HKS wastegate, greddy turbo manifold, HKS SSQV bov, HKS FMIC, etc etc etc. And this is all going into my widebody FB which is intended to be a streetable car when it is completed.
My questions are about the engine im going to build for it.
Im going to purchase a S5 core and I plan on tearing it down, buying new S4 rotors, new S5 housings, all OEM seals, etc. What is your opinion on high tensile strength dowel pins, for 500 hp at the flywheel is it really worth it? Is there a place you recommend getting porting templates from? At what horsepower level would you recommend hardened stationary gears? Would you recommend doing any oil pump modifications? I was thinking about going with a oil pan baffel as well. Im interested to hear your suggestion for engine modifications for a horsepower goal like this.
Thank you I really appreciate your advise!
Dan_s_young
I have a few questions about the setup im building and am looking for a few suggestions. I am building a Turbo S5 motor, and my goal is to get 400-450 RWHP out of it, im going to streetport the engine, and im going to be using a 60-1 turbo, microtech LT10s, HKS wastegate, greddy turbo manifold, HKS SSQV bov, HKS FMIC, etc etc etc. And this is all going into my widebody FB which is intended to be a streetable car when it is completed.
My questions are about the engine im going to build for it.
Im going to purchase a S5 core and I plan on tearing it down, buying new S4 rotors, new S5 housings, all OEM seals, etc. What is your opinion on high tensile strength dowel pins, for 500 hp at the flywheel is it really worth it? Is there a place you recommend getting porting templates from? At what horsepower level would you recommend hardened stationary gears? Would you recommend doing any oil pump modifications? I was thinking about going with a oil pan baffel as well. Im interested to hear your suggestion for engine modifications for a horsepower goal like this.
Thank you I really appreciate your advise!
Dan_s_young
#75
Originally Posted by fritts
Blake, you said your testing NRS re-chroming currently. What kind of price points and advantages/disadvantages do you see to re-chroming verses the cermet?