Got me a supercharger!
08-17-04 | 11:58 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Displacement > Boost
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Mississippi
Go to nopistons.com to their porting section, it's worlds more informative than anything here at the club, I learned quite a bit about porting from Judge Ito over there, he's the king!
08-18-04 | 12:44 AM
#28
Originally Posted by 88IntegraLS
8 psi is .5 bar, or 1.5 atmosphere. If my engine is making ~150 rwhp at .9 atu, multiplying 150 by 1.5/.9 and then multiplying again by .8 to cover belt losses and intake air temp rise gives 200 rwhp, although the compression ratio rises under boost which elevates overall efficiency somewhat . .
Bypassed superchargers steal a few hp when cruising on the highway in bypass mode (of course I'm planning on bypassing this), but that's not worth a tenth of a mpg.
I've said it before and will say it again: Turbos create more backpressure on the exhaust than the boost psi they create, and that steals horsepower just like belt losses of superchargers . .
It would be much easier to sell this car, buy a TII, and do the standard mods to max out the stock turbo to get 250 rwhp, but I'm doing this for practice for future goals, and yes it's nice to mention that I can fab and calculate stuff and put it to use when talking to other engineers. I can't believe how many engineers I know from just experimenting with this car, it's insane! Off the top of my head there are 4 guys I know who have engineering degrees and are gainfully employed, and rotorheads like me.
With projects like this, it gives me some small-talk to throw at the business people in my future who will get me the venture capital I might need.
Bypassed superchargers steal a few hp when cruising on the highway in bypass mode (of course I'm planning on bypassing this), but that's not worth a tenth of a mpg.
I've said it before and will say it again: Turbos create more backpressure on the exhaust than the boost psi they create, and that steals horsepower just like belt losses of superchargers . .
It would be much easier to sell this car, buy a TII, and do the standard mods to max out the stock turbo to get 250 rwhp, but I'm doing this for practice for future goals, and yes it's nice to mention that I can fab and calculate stuff and put it to use when talking to other engineers. I can't believe how many engineers I know from just experimenting with this car, it's insane! Off the top of my head there are 4 guys I know who have engineering degrees and are gainfully employed, and rotorheads like me.
With projects like this, it gives me some small-talk to throw at the business people in my future who will get me the venture capital I might need.
I'm thinking you missed some thing in your boost conversion. Are you sure .5 bar or 8psi is 1.5 atmosphere? Standard atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi.
Take Thermodynamics then come back and tell me turbos aren't more efficient than superchargers as far as energy, figure out that turbos add more HP than they take, and they do it with waste energy, superchargers also add more HP than they take to drive (otherwise it would be pointless to add) but they use crank power which is NOT waste energy.
Another thing, NA motors can have higher than 100% Volumetric efficiency (postive intake manifold pressure) at WOT like you see in your car. Before you say you see positive manifold pressure consider the accuracy of your gauge. At the levels your measuring your guage is not very accurate.
Jeff
08-18-04 | 05:54 AM
#29
Originally Posted by j200pruf
So 88 do you have any ideas of using a intercooler set-up similar to Ian's? Or are you just going to stick with a front mount.
Man I feel like I am going to be the only one left looking for real performance with my N/A set-up.
I hate you man
Man I feel like I am going to be the only one left looking for real performance with my N/A set-up.
I hate you man
08-18-04 | 09:58 AM
#30
Thread Starter
Displacement > Boost
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Mississippi
I'm planning an FMIC, but I would do H mount in a heartbeat if I was in the mood to cut a reverse scoop in my hood. As for size, I'm planning something like 24x8x3 or maybe a tad smaller . .
08-18-04 | 10:33 AM
#31
Undercover
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Ohio
Originally Posted by turbojeff
I'm thinking you missed some thing in your boost conversion. Are you sure .5 bar or 8psi is 1.5 atmosphere? Standard atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi.
Jeff
CJG
08-18-04 | 11:36 AM
#32
Here are some rules of thumbs for back of the envelope calculations.
Atmospheric pressure is ~14.7 psi depending on altitude and location. 14.7psi is good enough for this discussion.
5psi is about 1/3 of 14.7psi.
So in Atm and BAR you'll be about 1/3 of 1 or .33 BAR/Atm.
The real conversion.
5psi = .345 BAR = .340 Atm
8psi = .552 BAR = .544 Atm
You shouldn't use guage pressure on one side and absolute on the other. If your talking about running 5-8 psi, you are referring to guage pressure not absolute. Absolute just adds atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi.
FYI stock FDs put down 210-215rwhp with 255 HP at the crank on 10psi boost. If you want to run 5 psi a good comparison for rwhp is a stock 87-88 TII since they run 5-6psi boost.
For you to hit even 200rwhp will be very impressive.
I'm just trying to help you figure out where you'll end up so you can "size" everything you need, FMIC, injectors, fuel pump, clutch, etc. 160-180rwhp is quite a bit different than 250rwhp.
Atmospheric pressure is ~14.7 psi depending on altitude and location. 14.7psi is good enough for this discussion.
5psi is about 1/3 of 14.7psi.
So in Atm and BAR you'll be about 1/3 of 1 or .33 BAR/Atm.
The real conversion.
5psi = .345 BAR = .340 Atm
8psi = .552 BAR = .544 Atm
You shouldn't use guage pressure on one side and absolute on the other. If your talking about running 5-8 psi, you are referring to guage pressure not absolute. Absolute just adds atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi.
FYI stock FDs put down 210-215rwhp with 255 HP at the crank on 10psi boost. If you want to run 5 psi a good comparison for rwhp is a stock 87-88 TII since they run 5-6psi boost.
For you to hit even 200rwhp will be very impressive.
I'm just trying to help you figure out where you'll end up so you can "size" everything you need, FMIC, injectors, fuel pump, clutch, etc. 160-180rwhp is quite a bit different than 250rwhp.
08-18-04 | 07:17 PM
#33
I'd say use both. Have an air flow converter and have it switch from supercharged power in the low end untill the turbo spools up, and they have it transpher air from the supercharger inlet to the turbo charger inlet. Sounds like a complicated setup, but it would be sweet. Beings that we are on the subject of things that are hard to make work.
08-18-04 | 11:37 PM
#34
Thread Starter
Displacement > Boost
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Mississippi
I fabbed up part of the mount cradle this evening at the farm, and let me tell u, this thing is going to really stand out in the engine bay. I had the compressor sitting there beside the motor, just above the spark plugs and it looks so good. I'll have to relocate my fuel lines and maybe the heater coolant line but nothing major.
Time to fix my digicam so I can show all u what I'm talking about . . man this is great.
Time to fix my digicam so I can show all u what I'm talking about . . man this is great.
08-18-04 | 11:42 PM
#35
Thread Starter
Displacement > Boost
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Mississippi
Originally Posted by turbojeff
For you to hit even 200rwhp will be very impressive.
I'm just trying to help you
I'm just trying to help you
There is a member of this board (codeblue2) with a 12a, non aftercooled roots blown non ported engine making 200+ rwhp on less than 10 psi "guage" pressure . . she just got it tuned at ground zero in portland.
Help me get some venture capital for my other pipe dream: solar thermal absorption / conversion autonomous power generation . .
08-19-04 | 12:30 AM
#36
Originally Posted by 88IntegraLS
There is a member of this board (codeblue2) with a 12a, non aftercooled roots blown non ported engine making 200+ rwhp on less than 10 psi "guage" pressure . . she just got it tuned at ground zero in portland.
Help me get some venture capital for my other pipe dream: solar thermal absorption / conversion autonomous power generation . .
Help me get some venture capital for my other pipe dream: solar thermal absorption / conversion autonomous power generation . .
08-19-04 | 01:15 AM
#37
Resident Bitch
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Spoklahoma, WA
Originally Posted by 88IntegraLS
There is a member of this board (codeblue2) with a 12a, non aftercooled roots blown non ported engine making 200+ rwhp on less than 10 psi "guage" pressure . . she just got it tuned at ground zero in portland.
Help me get some venture capital for my other pipe dream: solar thermal absorption / conversion autonomous power generation . .
Help me get some venture capital for my other pipe dream: solar thermal absorption / conversion autonomous power generation . .
Im like truely addicted to the blowers....
08-19-04 | 02:31 AM
#38
Originally Posted by CODE BLUE 2
Actually...I have a 13b in the car fuel injection with a microtech sys in it, and its ported, though not a huge port. It does 211hp with only 5lbs boost. I was going to up the boost and see what Ive got. I was also going to do the 1/4 mile this weekend but I only go to the track if the Atkins go, and they are currently out of town. 5lbs boost for the blower is fast enough for my daily driving, but can up it one more time to 11lbs boost. Im in desperate need for some slicks to use for the track, as i wont get good numbers spinning in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
Im like truely addicted to the blowers....
Im like truely addicted to the blowers....
.So it is a 13b, not a 12a.
It is ported a little, not stock ports, not huge ports.
Oh and it's got a aftermarket fuel injection system...
FYI 88IntegraLS, GRM pulled 190rwhp (IIRC) with a NA 13B. The difference is the resources available to them vs. yours.
Do you have the dyno sheet scanned in, I'd love to see it.
Codeblue,
You don't need slicks, my ~260-270 rwhp FD doesn't spin them, even in first unless your goal is just to spin the tires. You just need a good street tire.
08-19-04 | 05:41 AM
#39
John
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,393
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From: Oregon
Originally Posted by CODE BLUE 2
Im in desperate need for some slicks to use for the track, as i wont get good numbers spinning in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
88IntegraLS, good luck with your project. I remember you telling me about it during the meet. I thought and still do think it's pretty cool, not everyday that someone goes against the grain. When do you think it'll be done? I'd love to see the fabrication work
08-19-04 | 09:35 AM
#41
Resident Bitch
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Spoklahoma, WA
When I leave the track I stage at about 3500rpms...right now I get a lot of wheel hop and spin. When your shifting at 8500rpms with hard tires they do break loose going from 2nd to 3rd. When I get to 3rd I get some wheel spin. I do have a posi rear end. I do need at least some streetable slicks, something thats softer than the Yokohama tires. My next thing to do is put on a line lock. Superchargers put out a lot of low end tourque, so its very easy to get tires spinning. Say hey were new to drag racing...maybe it is the driver...lol.
Let me find the Dyno sheet from Ground Zero and I will post it...
On the Dyno we were running only 5lbs boost for the test..soon will try it with the 11lb pulley.
Let me find the Dyno sheet from Ground Zero and I will post it...
On the Dyno we were running only 5lbs boost for the test..soon will try it with the 11lb pulley.
08-19-04 | 09:58 AM
#43
Thread Starter
Displacement > Boost
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Mississippi
Originally Posted by LT1-7
88IntegraLS, When do you think it'll be done? I'd love to see the fabrication work
08-19-04 | 10:27 AM
#46
John
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,393
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From: Oregon
Originally Posted by CODE BLUE 2
When I leave the track I stage at about 3500rpms...right now I get a lot of wheel hop and spin. When your shifting at 8500rpms with hard tires they do break loose going from 2nd to 3rd. When I get to 3rd I get some wheel spin. I do have a posi rear end. I do need at least some streetable slicks, something thats softer than the Yokohama tires. My next thing to do is put on a line lock. Superchargers put out a lot of low end tourque, so its very easy to get tires spinning. Say hey were new to drag racing...maybe it is the driver...lol.
Seriously though, your car should not be spinning at that speed, period. Even 500hp Vipers can hook up, I know you don't have more torque than that. And don't say it's because your car is light cause I'll get into it with you on that as well
08-19-04 | 10:32 AM
#47
John
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,393
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From: Oregon
Originally Posted by 88IntegraLS
I should have the supercharger mounted, belt situation taken care of and have work started on the throttle body adapter and other pipes by sept. 11, if ur all still thinking of getting together . .
I want to see what your car runs. Your times were pretty impressive before, being NA. I wonder how fast you'll be now
08-19-04 | 11:12 AM
#48
Undercover
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Ohio
Originally Posted by CODE BLUE 2
When I leave the track I stage at about 3500rpms...right now I get a lot of wheel hop and spin. When your shifting at 8500rpms with hard tires they do break loose going from 2nd to 3rd. When I get to 3rd I get some wheel spin. I do have a posi rear end. I do need at least some streetable slicks, something thats softer than the Yokohama tires. My next thing to do is put on a line lock. Superchargers put out a lot of low end tourque, so its very easy to get tires spinning. .
I would like to see it rip them loose in 3rd, ill bet they chirp and get like a 1/4 rotation. Also in your dyno sheet it says it weighs 1900 lbs??? And your defenition of "a lot of low end tourqe" and mine must be a lot different, because that is one of your guys biggest arguing points is the amount of tourque at low end, but the turbo puts out within probably 10 of that and another 100 + by 4k.
CJG
08-19-04 | 12:33 PM
#49
Originally Posted by CODE BLUE
It took me a minute to find if , but heres the Dyno sheet.
NOTE: I'm only runing 5lbs boost.
NOTE: I'm only runing 5lbs boost.
If you look at the HP at ~7000 rpm it is about ~180rwhp. Spin it up a little farther and since the torqe curve is flat you have a basically linear increase in hp.
08-19-04 | 02:11 PM
#50
Resident Bitch
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Spoklahoma, WA
Originally Posted by Rotortuner
I would like to see it rip them loose in 3rd, ill bet they chirp and get like a 1/4 rotation. Also in your dyno sheet it says it weighs 1900 lbs??? And your defenition of "a lot of low end tourqe" and mine must be a lot different, because that is one of your guys biggest arguing points is the amount of tourque at low end, but the turbo puts out within probably 10 of that and another 100 + by 4k.
CJG
CJG