1985 13B Single Turbo - Elaborate effort still issues
01-01-21, 11:13 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
1985 13B Single Turbo - Elaborate effort still issues
Hello rx7 club!
Haven't been on here in about 15 years, since i got my first car. Which happens to be the same model as this car, but my new one doesn't have a giant Puerto Rico decal on the back and costed me a bit more then $800
.
So I acquired this FB single turbo from Robert at Rotary Shack a few years back... I see now he has a bad reputation and I think I can see why.
Since day one it has been incredibly hard to start. Here is some info about the car.
It has a FMIC, a custom(?) Intake/throttle body, a single Fuel Rail with 4 injector spaces and a FPR,
A God Foresaken MT4 microtech fuel EMS
It had MSD 6a but someone stole it while it was sitting. I got another one and installed it while making the leading plugs fire each through their own coils (Direct Fire?)
Robert told me to use c16 fuel which I believe may contribute to the hard start.
It had been sitting for about 1 1/2 years when I finally decided enough is enough and that I would work on it and spend spend spend until it was proper.
When I turned it over I just couldn't get it to fire. This led me to examine the ignition system which was pretty poorly assembled.
I ultimately rewired the whole ignition system using the Ultra silicon wires offered at racing beat, alongside the MSD 6a purp/green magnetic pickups wired to the green and red wire in the leading distributor igniter. Each leading plug has a new MSD Blaster 2 coil. Spark is strong.
After that didn't work I got a fuel pressure gauge and tee'd it inline before the rail. got 50psi strong. Still no fire. After troubleshooting, I realized that when I cranked the ignition, the power to the fuel pump cut out.. So fresh battery installed incase it was voltage drop. Turns out that they had wired the fuel pump through the defrost switch on the right side of the cluster, and it was experiencing drop and also apparently was on the circuit that cuts during cranking... Rewired the fuel pump straight from battery with new relay, independent of the oem harness. Sounds stronger and stays on during crank (genius right).
I then start to tear into the microtech mt4... following wires through the harness, which conveniently have had the ends cut and switched so that you think your looking at a diff wire for a day or two until you open the whole harness...mapped out what is what, rewired the injectors and checked for resistance etc., Read every thread on base maps and to be blunt its just all random chaos. not a single base map worked. when running the config test in the microtech, all injectors fire. well after a lot more trying and troubleshooting, I took the upper intake manifold off, with the injectors throttle body and fuel rail connected still, and when I would crank, no fuel from injectors.. This drove me nuts for a while. I then started making my own base map from scratch and I noticed that the t_inj screen was made to delay injectors until a certain rpm has been reached, well the rpms don't really register on the microtech while cranking, so I lowered the delays to 0 despite the base maps that say otherwise. Finally I saw a few spurts of gas come out of the manifold. YES! Spark, Gas, air... we should be good.... nope.. still no start. I'm gonna do the basics tomorrow, oil change, atf fluid in lower plugs etc. and just pray i get some action. Anybody have any thoughts? I was thinking timing maybe? I haven't disassembled the distributor fully, I was thinking maybe timing, but it did start previously (year+ ago) and haven't changed any timing. The arrow on the dist points to 9 o'clock with the pulley wheel marking at the needle, idk if that's indicative of timing set correctly.. Im open to any advice at this point. Im sure ive done a few more things besides rip this car to shreds, Ill post em if I remember, also If anyone needs pics for any particular thing let me know.
Thnaks!
Rx7oc
Haven't been on here in about 15 years, since i got my first car. Which happens to be the same model as this car, but my new one doesn't have a giant Puerto Rico decal on the back and costed me a bit more then $800
.So I acquired this FB single turbo from Robert at Rotary Shack a few years back... I see now he has a bad reputation and I think I can see why.
Since day one it has been incredibly hard to start. Here is some info about the car.
It has a FMIC, a custom(?) Intake/throttle body, a single Fuel Rail with 4 injector spaces and a FPR,
A God Foresaken MT4 microtech fuel EMS
It had MSD 6a but someone stole it while it was sitting. I got another one and installed it while making the leading plugs fire each through their own coils (Direct Fire?)
Robert told me to use c16 fuel which I believe may contribute to the hard start.
It had been sitting for about 1 1/2 years when I finally decided enough is enough and that I would work on it and spend spend spend until it was proper.
When I turned it over I just couldn't get it to fire. This led me to examine the ignition system which was pretty poorly assembled.
I ultimately rewired the whole ignition system using the Ultra silicon wires offered at racing beat, alongside the MSD 6a purp/green magnetic pickups wired to the green and red wire in the leading distributor igniter. Each leading plug has a new MSD Blaster 2 coil. Spark is strong.
After that didn't work I got a fuel pressure gauge and tee'd it inline before the rail. got 50psi strong. Still no fire. After troubleshooting, I realized that when I cranked the ignition, the power to the fuel pump cut out.. So fresh battery installed incase it was voltage drop. Turns out that they had wired the fuel pump through the defrost switch on the right side of the cluster, and it was experiencing drop and also apparently was on the circuit that cuts during cranking... Rewired the fuel pump straight from battery with new relay, independent of the oem harness. Sounds stronger and stays on during crank (genius right).
I then start to tear into the microtech mt4... following wires through the harness, which conveniently have had the ends cut and switched so that you think your looking at a diff wire for a day or two until you open the whole harness...mapped out what is what, rewired the injectors and checked for resistance etc., Read every thread on base maps and to be blunt its just all random chaos. not a single base map worked. when running the config test in the microtech, all injectors fire. well after a lot more trying and troubleshooting, I took the upper intake manifold off, with the injectors throttle body and fuel rail connected still, and when I would crank, no fuel from injectors.. This drove me nuts for a while. I then started making my own base map from scratch and I noticed that the t_inj screen was made to delay injectors until a certain rpm has been reached, well the rpms don't really register on the microtech while cranking, so I lowered the delays to 0 despite the base maps that say otherwise. Finally I saw a few spurts of gas come out of the manifold. YES! Spark, Gas, air... we should be good.... nope.. still no start. I'm gonna do the basics tomorrow, oil change, atf fluid in lower plugs etc. and just pray i get some action. Anybody have any thoughts? I was thinking timing maybe? I haven't disassembled the distributor fully, I was thinking maybe timing, but it did start previously (year+ ago) and haven't changed any timing. The arrow on the dist points to 9 o'clock with the pulley wheel marking at the needle, idk if that's indicative of timing set correctly.. Im open to any advice at this point. Im sure ive done a few more things besides rip this car to shreds, Ill post em if I remember, also If anyone needs pics for any particular thing let me know.
Thnaks!
Rx7oc
01-02-21, 08:01 PM
#2
first of all, welcome back!
you have done a lot of commendable work, but the one thing i did not hear (read) was if you performed a compression test on the engine.
from what i understand, working with Robert was a hit-n-miss affair. it sounds like you were one of the ones that missed. i feel for you. however, i'm glad you had the mindset to move on.
i can't help with the Microtech stuff, but the basic engine stuff, i can help with (even though it sounds like you really have that covered.) don't put ATF in the chambers!
it definitely would be worth your while to re-stab the distributor according to the proper procedure.
you have done a lot of commendable work, but the one thing i did not hear (read) was if you performed a compression test on the engine.
from what i understand, working with Robert was a hit-n-miss affair. it sounds like you were one of the ones that missed. i feel for you. however, i'm glad you had the mindset to move on.
i can't help with the Microtech stuff, but the basic engine stuff, i can help with (even though it sounds like you really have that covered.) don't put ATF in the chambers!
it definitely would be worth your while to re-stab the distributor according to the proper procedure.
01-02-21, 09:24 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the reply Diabolical1!
In the interest of full disclosure, Robert took care of me with my first car when i was 16, drove it to him with a full exhaust out the sunroof and a manual transmission (it was automatic) that I didnt have all the parts for the swap with it. He knocked it out.
Anyway back to it. Today i did do the distributor restabbing, Im pretty sure it was off 180 degrees, which seems to actually not matter(?) from some threads Ive read. My pulley has 2 indented marks that aren't very clean and 4 clean thin line/marks a bit further away so thats confusing. I stabbed at the first of the 4 clean marks, but writing this Im starting to think maybe the rough two marks were made by the PO for whatever reason. because it still didnt start. I think its timing and the base map, which is incredibly hard to find for this setup lol. I am going to do more timing and ems adjustments tomorrow and then if we cant figure it out I am in the tow vicinity of DNA, Lucky 7, and RRR, so I may have to resort to that unfortunately. I can perform the work if we figure the problem out, thats the only reason i hesitate bringing to a shop.
Anyways thank you, I now need to figure out what the actual timing is on this car somehow, and/or take it apart!
Thanks
rx7oc
In the interest of full disclosure, Robert took care of me with my first car when i was 16, drove it to him with a full exhaust out the sunroof and a manual transmission (it was automatic) that I didnt have all the parts for the swap with it. He knocked it out.
Anyway back to it. Today i did do the distributor restabbing, Im pretty sure it was off 180 degrees, which seems to actually not matter(?) from some threads Ive read. My pulley has 2 indented marks that aren't very clean and 4 clean thin line/marks a bit further away so thats confusing. I stabbed at the first of the 4 clean marks, but writing this Im starting to think maybe the rough two marks were made by the PO for whatever reason. because it still didnt start. I think its timing and the base map, which is incredibly hard to find for this setup lol. I am going to do more timing and ems adjustments tomorrow and then if we cant figure it out I am in the tow vicinity of DNA, Lucky 7, and RRR, so I may have to resort to that unfortunately. I can perform the work if we figure the problem out, thats the only reason i hesitate bringing to a shop.
Anyways thank you, I now need to figure out what the actual timing is on this car somehow, and/or take it apart!
Thanks
rx7oc
01-05-21, 01:00 AM
#5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Well I bit the bullet (not fully as it was a great deal) and got a haltech (platinum sport 1000) and terminated harness. I also got a CAS to swap the distributor out. I also identified what I have exactly on the intake, injection, and throttle body setup.
Lower intake Manifold is stock looking, upper intake Manifold is a racing beat weber with 4 injector bungs welded into the middle of the 90(degree fitting) and a single 4 injector rail/brakcket. It then goes to a TWM (now borla) dual runner throttle boddy (that has 2 more injector bungs plugged) and that goes to a custom IDA intake plenum, from there to intercooler / turbo. Fuel Rail is custom and the fuel pressure regulator doesn't have any identifying marks (haven't looked hard though)
The haltech harness compared to the mt4 harness is like comparing the harness from a s500 to that of a power wheels kids toy.. it is very beefy and i luckily purchased from a individual who kept everything clean and labeled.
I got LS1 coil/igniters, which is awesome, except for that I have the msd coils and msd(s) box that I bought now.
Removed the AC from the car for weight reduction and space, and started to install Haltech. Had to take the TPS connector and two Fuel Injector connectors from the mt4 harness, as the last owner had changed them on the haltech to suit his build. I am soldering them up tonight.
Tomorrow I will dry the engine out completely, and achieve TDC somehow lol, then stab the CAS. From there I will be plugging in and wiring all the haltech components and sensors.
I am excited that with control over timing and fuel, I should be able to get the ride going.
Will post soon
Lower intake Manifold is stock looking, upper intake Manifold is a racing beat weber with 4 injector bungs welded into the middle of the 90(degree fitting) and a single 4 injector rail/brakcket. It then goes to a TWM (now borla) dual runner throttle boddy (that has 2 more injector bungs plugged) and that goes to a custom IDA intake plenum, from there to intercooler / turbo. Fuel Rail is custom and the fuel pressure regulator doesn't have any identifying marks (haven't looked hard though)
The haltech harness compared to the mt4 harness is like comparing the harness from a s500 to that of a power wheels kids toy.. it is very beefy and i luckily purchased from a individual who kept everything clean and labeled.
I got LS1 coil/igniters, which is awesome, except for that I have the msd coils and msd(s) box that I bought now.
Removed the AC from the car for weight reduction and space, and started to install Haltech. Had to take the TPS connector and two Fuel Injector connectors from the mt4 harness, as the last owner had changed them on the haltech to suit his build. I am soldering them up tonight.
Tomorrow I will dry the engine out completely, and achieve TDC somehow lol, then stab the CAS. From there I will be plugging in and wiring all the haltech components and sensors.
I am excited that with control over timing and fuel, I should be able to get the ride going.
Will post soon
01-05-21, 08:15 AM
#6
congratulations on the new system. i'm excited for you.
for finding TDC, there is method where you can use the flywheel (as long as you are still running the stock flywheel). when you find it on the pulley, you can use the flywheel as a sort of confirmation.
i'm excited for you.for finding TDC, there is method where you can use the flywheel (as long as you are still running the stock flywheel). when you find it on the pulley, you can use the flywheel as a sort of confirmation.
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rx7oc (01-06-21)
01-06-21, 08:42 PM
#7
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I have a T2 trans with a aftermarket flywheel (I'm pretty sure at least).
I had the idea to use a fiber optic line camera from the world of plumbing to inspect the rotor positioning. I dont have mine anymore but my buddy still has one, he's gonna bring it tomorrow hopefully. I expect that to be pretty cool, and hopefully it works well and can be used as another option for checking these engines out while they are still installed!
The Haltech and it's software is so much more legitimate, its crazy. under no circumstance should anyone ever choose microtech. additionally, 95% (maybe more) of the time you shouldn't even attempt to use the microtech on a rotary even if its free or came with it. It is truly a basic thrown together overnight programming project for a entry level programmer. what an absolute embarrassment their product is. I cannot say enough bad things about it. I am a programmer myself and I just assumed that was the level of quality in the auto EMS industry and chalked it up to the fact that race engine builders aren't usually computer nerds also. Not the case. The Haltech was designed with some thought, planning, knowledge of engine mechanics, and a decent programming squad. The options it offers are necessary for a finely tuned rotary. I wish I had been more knowledgeable and ripped that microtech out day 1.
I got the TPS, Injectors, External MAP, Boost controller(https://www.mazdatrix.com/product/ha...oost-solenoid/), and relays setup and rewired (for the connectors that needed to be changed). Next is the ignition and the fuel pump wiring to the EMS. I also have to tap some threaded holes for the air sensor and possibly the coolant sensor. Picked up some new weather stripping (https://www.mazdatrix.com/product/do...and-left-pair/) from Mazdatrix in long beach,
Project is coming together nicely!
I am trying to identify the turbo setup but it is tightly squeezed into my lil FB haha.
I can see the front housing is a Garrett, the back, I cannot tell yet. I remember the PO saying it is a hybrid and about as big as you can fit without serious modifications. I'll try and get some pics. I grabbed a new Steel Gasket (https://www.mazdatrix.com/product/ga...b-to-manifold/) for the turbo to manifold connection. As well as some for the omp. and the air block off plate for the LIM.
I also took the opportunity to replace all the old silicone hosing throughout the project.*
Anyway that was the loose update for now
rx7oc
I had the idea to use a fiber optic line camera from the world of plumbing to inspect the rotor positioning. I dont have mine anymore but my buddy still has one, he's gonna bring it tomorrow hopefully. I expect that to be pretty cool, and hopefully it works well and can be used as another option for checking these engines out while they are still installed!
The Haltech and it's software is so much more legitimate, its crazy. under no circumstance should anyone ever choose microtech. additionally, 95% (maybe more) of the time you shouldn't even attempt to use the microtech on a rotary even if its free or came with it. It is truly a basic thrown together overnight programming project for a entry level programmer. what an absolute embarrassment their product is. I cannot say enough bad things about it. I am a programmer myself and I just assumed that was the level of quality in the auto EMS industry and chalked it up to the fact that race engine builders aren't usually computer nerds also. Not the case. The Haltech was designed with some thought, planning, knowledge of engine mechanics, and a decent programming squad. The options it offers are necessary for a finely tuned rotary. I wish I had been more knowledgeable and ripped that microtech out day 1.
I got the TPS, Injectors, External MAP, Boost controller(https://www.mazdatrix.com/product/ha...oost-solenoid/), and relays setup and rewired (for the connectors that needed to be changed). Next is the ignition and the fuel pump wiring to the EMS. I also have to tap some threaded holes for the air sensor and possibly the coolant sensor. Picked up some new weather stripping (https://www.mazdatrix.com/product/do...and-left-pair/) from Mazdatrix in long beach,
Project is coming together nicely!
I am trying to identify the turbo setup but it is tightly squeezed into my lil FB haha.
I can see the front housing is a Garrett, the back, I cannot tell yet. I remember the PO saying it is a hybrid and about as big as you can fit without serious modifications. I'll try and get some pics. I grabbed a new Steel Gasket (https://www.mazdatrix.com/product/ga...b-to-manifold/) for the turbo to manifold connection. As well as some for the omp. and the air block off plate for the LIM.
I also took the opportunity to replace all the old silicone hosing throughout the project.*
Anyway that was the loose update for now
rx7oc
Last edited by rx7oc; 01-06-21 at 08:46 PM. Reason: forgot a installed item
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rx7oc (01-06-21)
01-06-21, 11:45 PM
#9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I should,
This was kind of becoming it. I'll make sure to do one next chance I get. Now that I am actually redoing everything, it seems justified.
I just came inside to grab the CAS wiring diagram, and I plan to wire that up now. Will probably call it a night after that which will give me an opportunity to do a build thread,
Thanks for the suggestion
rx7oc
This was kind of becoming it. I'll make sure to do one next chance I get. Now that I am actually redoing everything, it seems justified.
I just came inside to grab the CAS wiring diagram, and I plan to wire that up now. Will probably call it a night after that which will give me an opportunity to do a build thread,
Thanks for the suggestion
rx7oc
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