Top 5 mods for an N/A?
12-12-08 | 04:32 PM
#26
Thread Starter
rotors, my anti-piston
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
From: Hidden Valley Lake, CA
no no i totally see where your coming from, im just you know trying to delegate my finances, but yes the stock gauges are good, im just trying to see how to prioritize things, and your totally correct about repairs and what not, lol i have to remember it's a 20+ year old car. thanks for the help man!
12-13-08 | 10:00 AM
#29
If he's concerned about power rather than handling so the top 5 most effective power gains that you can get at the rear wheels in order are:
1: Full exhaust including a header. Obviously there are a few different styles and ways to go about this but your exhaust can free up to 30 hp or more which is huge. different designs free up different amounts of power and have different usable powerbands. One can write a book on the topic.
2: Lightweight flywheel. I quantified this by stating wheel power rather than crank power as it doesn't actually increase engine power. It just decreases loss through the driveline. There are tradeoffs to drivability. I personally like them as light as I can get them. Others don't. It is a very noticable power increase to the wheels though.
3: ecu. Preferably a standalone but don't make the mistake that most do and try to buy and install one without knowing a thing about it, tuning theory, or how to do it. If you don't understand how to tune a car you shouldn't be worrying about the ecu. Just learn to be content with what you've got. I don't recommend the s-afc as it's plain and simple junk. I don't care who's using it or who says otherwise. Opinions vary and lots of people are complete morons. An rtek is kind of a compromise ecu. It still plugs into the factory connection but is programmable. I'd actually favor getting a Power FC for a 3rd gen and then using the Banzai wiring adapter. That would be the easiest with no sacrifices.
These are really the 3 big noticable power gainers. You don't want a turbo or porting. There are other things but by comparison they are very minor in gains. They do something though but the above 3 should always come first in that order.
4: and 5: can be switched around in either order.
Intake. Make sure it's cold air and not just some stupid cone filter sitting in your
hot engine bay sucking hot air in all day.
Ignition box. MSD, Jacobs or otherwise. Small gains but still there.
Anything else you can think of may or may not be effective so I really don't touch anything else. I'm not a fan of "adding lightness" to a street car by removing insulation, a/c, power steering, carpet, etc as on the street creature comforts matter more. I find it plain and simple moronic to do. However if you have a true track car that never ever sees the street then by all means strip away.
If you get real creative you can start playing with custom intake manifolds but that's another topic with a whole bunch of pros and cons to be considered. With completely stock ports it is possible to hit around 175 rwhp or so if you're good. Maybe a little bit more with creativity.
1: Full exhaust including a header. Obviously there are a few different styles and ways to go about this but your exhaust can free up to 30 hp or more which is huge. different designs free up different amounts of power and have different usable powerbands. One can write a book on the topic.
2: Lightweight flywheel. I quantified this by stating wheel power rather than crank power as it doesn't actually increase engine power. It just decreases loss through the driveline. There are tradeoffs to drivability. I personally like them as light as I can get them. Others don't. It is a very noticable power increase to the wheels though.
3: ecu. Preferably a standalone but don't make the mistake that most do and try to buy and install one without knowing a thing about it, tuning theory, or how to do it. If you don't understand how to tune a car you shouldn't be worrying about the ecu. Just learn to be content with what you've got. I don't recommend the s-afc as it's plain and simple junk. I don't care who's using it or who says otherwise. Opinions vary and lots of people are complete morons. An rtek is kind of a compromise ecu. It still plugs into the factory connection but is programmable. I'd actually favor getting a Power FC for a 3rd gen and then using the Banzai wiring adapter. That would be the easiest with no sacrifices.
These are really the 3 big noticable power gainers. You don't want a turbo or porting. There are other things but by comparison they are very minor in gains. They do something though but the above 3 should always come first in that order.
4: and 5: can be switched around in either order.
Intake. Make sure it's cold air and not just some stupid cone filter sitting in your
hot engine bay sucking hot air in all day.
Ignition box. MSD, Jacobs or otherwise. Small gains but still there.
Anything else you can think of may or may not be effective so I really don't touch anything else. I'm not a fan of "adding lightness" to a street car by removing insulation, a/c, power steering, carpet, etc as on the street creature comforts matter more. I find it plain and simple moronic to do. However if you have a true track car that never ever sees the street then by all means strip away.
If you get real creative you can start playing with custom intake manifolds but that's another topic with a whole bunch of pros and cons to be considered. With completely stock ports it is possible to hit around 175 rwhp or so if you're good. Maybe a little bit more with creativity.
12-13-08 | 11:08 AM
#30
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 5
From: BC, Canada
In some formula cars, the alternator is driven off the driveshaft for that same reason, keep it from constantly accelerating and decelerating with the engine all the time as you're rowing through the gears, which will reduce losses.
12-13-08 | 02:56 PM
#31
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
From: North Dakota
Must of the people that complain about what it to do more. If all you want is to adjust fuel, then it will work. There use to be some dyno sheets in the 2nd gen dyno section that should 10whp on a street tune. I can't remember what it ended up being after the dyno tune.
12-15-08 | 12:50 AM
#32
If you already have an SAFC then you may as well go ahead and use it. It does do something albeit a small amount but it's not up to my standards of acceptability. If it were free, then it might be financially viable. Maybe. That's just a personal opinion of course. If you are willing to sell it and get something better, that would be the most beneficial thing to do as you'll really open up tuning doors rather than just playing with a few *****. The SAFC has no idea what load is. It only knows rpm and even then only has a few fixed points it can adjust. It really is a Stupid Air Fuel Computer!
Last edited by rotarygod; 12-15-08 at 01:00 AM.
12-15-08 | 02:40 AM
#33
My top 5 would be:
Intake
Header
Exhaust
*aka breather mods*
Street port
Ecu (rtek chipped or stand alone)
I wouldn't worry about the e-fan mod.... Not too much to gain. If your temps are going higher than you'd like, then i think the switch to efans and possibly an upgraded radiator could be justified.
Intake
Header
Exhaust
*aka breather mods*
Street port
Ecu (rtek chipped or stand alone)
I wouldn't worry about the e-fan mod.... Not too much to gain. If your temps are going higher than you'd like, then i think the switch to efans and possibly an upgraded radiator could be justified.
12-15-08 | 01:15 PM
#34
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 31,196
Likes: 2,825
From: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
If you already have an SAFC then you may as well go ahead and use it. It does do something albeit a small amount but it's not up to my standards of acceptability. If it were free, then it might be financially viable. Maybe. That's just a personal opinion of course. If you are willing to sell it and get something better, that would be the most beneficial thing to do as you'll really open up tuning doors rather than just playing with a few *****. The SAFC has no idea what load is. It only knows rpm and even then only has a few fixed points it can adjust. It really is a Stupid Air Fuel Computer!
secondly on a stock s5, leaning it from 11 to like 12.5 makes a HUGE difference, the engine actually GAINS power when it revs higher.
would an rtek be better? yes!
i wouldnt BUY a new afc, but there are lots of cheap ones around
12-16-08 | 08:49 AM
#36
You get the ability to not only tune fuel over far many more points but you also get the ability to tune ignition timing too. Of course there's a learning curve when it comes to tuning but it's actually not that complicated. There's more to tuning than just rpm. There's also load. Part throttle settings vs full throttle. A good ecu will allow you to tune at multiple rpms and multiple load points. In other words you may have different load points within the same rpm as you can be at part throttle, full throttle, and everywhere in between. They all have different needs. The same holds true with timing. Multiple loads and rpms. Ignition and fuel maps really need to be thought of as 3D problems as you work in 3 different dimensions. Simple ecus such as the SAFC don't work that way. They are 2D which in the grand scheme of things doesn't do a whole lot. It does some though. A 2D ecu quite literally does only a fraction of what a good ecu with full control can do.
Let's say a simple ecu has the ability to tune fuel only over 12 rpm points. Maybe more maybe less but the point is the same and this is just an example. That's only 12 points of control. Now lets say we have a good ecu that does everything. Lets also just say it can control over 12 rpm points. However it can also control over 12 load points too. That's 144 points of control on fuel only. Now lets say that it also does this with ignition. That's another 144 points of control. Then lets say it gives you 36 different points of ignition split control. I'm just throwing numbers out there as most ecus actually do far more than this. For the sake of example lets just add up the numbers I stated. That's 12 points of control vs 324 points. Admittedly there are points that can't be used on 3D maps as you just can't hit certain loads at certain rpms. You generally transition diagonally upwards through load and rpm points.
The point of all of this is that many who stick up for the SAFC don't completely understand that there's more to tuning that merely adjusting fuel at a certain rpm point. The SAFC is quite literally a fraction of what anything else is yet it isn't a fraction of the price. In the days before standalones and other ecu options were cheap and easy to come by, things like the SAFC and other piggybacks were the only way to go. However it's technology that is about 15-20 years behind the curve. Admittedly they do keep improving it and it's come a long way from the days when it was 5 ***** that you turned. How long do you keep trying to improve something that's obsolete though?
I think before anyone gets into ecu's, they need to do their homework. There's actually alot to be learned from tjhe Megasquirt forum when it comes to tuning and it's relevant whether you are planning to use an MS or not. It's just good info. The nice thing about an rtek or even an SAFC for that matter is that if you aren't happy with what you've done, you can change it back pretty easily. With a complete standalone you can't do this. I know some say an SAFC is something good to learn on but even an rtek is too. I'm actually not the biggest fan of the rtek since it still keeps the air flow meter. The afm robs about 10% airflow from what the engine can breathe. It's impossible to open it all the way so don't listen to those who say it's isn't a restriction based on this. That's false. When they find a way to get rid of the afm, it'll be perfect. Until then it's not too bad.
In case you aren't familiar with the rtek, it's a fully programmable ecu that directly plugs in to your car. Unplug the factory ecu and plug in the new one. Simple.
Let's say a simple ecu has the ability to tune fuel only over 12 rpm points. Maybe more maybe less but the point is the same and this is just an example. That's only 12 points of control. Now lets say we have a good ecu that does everything. Lets also just say it can control over 12 rpm points. However it can also control over 12 load points too. That's 144 points of control on fuel only. Now lets say that it also does this with ignition. That's another 144 points of control. Then lets say it gives you 36 different points of ignition split control. I'm just throwing numbers out there as most ecus actually do far more than this. For the sake of example lets just add up the numbers I stated. That's 12 points of control vs 324 points. Admittedly there are points that can't be used on 3D maps as you just can't hit certain loads at certain rpms. You generally transition diagonally upwards through load and rpm points.
The point of all of this is that many who stick up for the SAFC don't completely understand that there's more to tuning that merely adjusting fuel at a certain rpm point. The SAFC is quite literally a fraction of what anything else is yet it isn't a fraction of the price. In the days before standalones and other ecu options were cheap and easy to come by, things like the SAFC and other piggybacks were the only way to go. However it's technology that is about 15-20 years behind the curve. Admittedly they do keep improving it and it's come a long way from the days when it was 5 ***** that you turned. How long do you keep trying to improve something that's obsolete though?
I think before anyone gets into ecu's, they need to do their homework. There's actually alot to be learned from tjhe Megasquirt forum when it comes to tuning and it's relevant whether you are planning to use an MS or not. It's just good info. The nice thing about an rtek or even an SAFC for that matter is that if you aren't happy with what you've done, you can change it back pretty easily. With a complete standalone you can't do this. I know some say an SAFC is something good to learn on but even an rtek is too. I'm actually not the biggest fan of the rtek since it still keeps the air flow meter. The afm robs about 10% airflow from what the engine can breathe. It's impossible to open it all the way so don't listen to those who say it's isn't a restriction based on this. That's false. When they find a way to get rid of the afm, it'll be perfect. Until then it's not too bad.
In case you aren't familiar with the rtek, it's a fully programmable ecu that directly plugs in to your car. Unplug the factory ecu and plug in the new one. Simple.
12-16-08 | 09:00 AM
#37
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
From: North Dakota
You get the ability to not only tune fuel over far many more points but you also get the ability to tune ignition timing too. Of course there's a learning curve when it comes to tuning but it's actually not that complicated. There's more to tuning than just rpm. There's also load. Part throttle settings vs full throttle. A good ecu will allow you to tune at multiple rpms and multiple load points. In other words you may have different load points within the same rpm as you can be at part throttle, full throttle, and everywhere in between. They all have different needs. The same holds true with timing. Multiple loads and rpms. Ignition and fuel maps really need to be thought of as 3D problems as you work in 3 different dimensions. Simple ecus such as the SAFC don't work that way. They are 2D which in the grand scheme of things doesn't do a whole lot. It does some though. A 2D ecu quite literally does only a fraction of what a good ecu with full control can do.
Let's say a simple ecu has the ability to tune fuel only over 12 rpm points. Maybe more maybe less but the point is the same and this is just an example. That's only 12 points of control. Now lets say we have a good ecu that does everything. Lets also just say it can control over 12 rpm points. However it can also control over 12 load points too. That's 144 points of control on fuel only. Now lets say that it also does this with ignition. That's another 144 points of control. Then lets say it gives you 36 different points of ignition split control. I'm just throwing numbers out there as most ecus actually do far more than this. For the sake of example lets just add up the numbers I stated. That's 12 points of control vs 324 points. Admittedly there are points that can't be used on 3D maps as you just can't hit certain loads at certain rpms. You generally transition diagonally upwards through load and rpm points.
The point of all of this is that many who stick up for the SAFC don't completely understand that there's more to tuning that merely adjusting fuel at a certain rpm point. The SAFC is quite literally a fraction of what anything else is yet it isn't a fraction of the price. In the days before standalones and other ecu options were cheap and easy to come by, things like the SAFC and other piggybacks were the only way to go. However it's technology that is about 15-20 years behind the curve. Admittedly they do keep improving it and it's come a long way from the days when it was 5 ***** that you turned. How long do you keep trying to improve something that's obsolete though?
I think before anyone gets into ecu's, they need to do their homework. There's actually alot to be learned from tjhe Megasquirt forum when it comes to tuning and it's relevant whether you are planning to use an MS or not. It's just good info. The nice thing about an rtek or even an SAFC for that matter is that if you aren't happy with what you've done, you can change it back pretty easily. With a complete standalone you can't do this. I know some say an SAFC is something good to learn on but even an rtek is too. I'm actually not the biggest fan of the rtek since it still keeps the air flow meter. The afm robs about 10% airflow from what the engine can breathe. It's impossible to open it all the way so don't listen to those who say it's isn't a restriction based on this. That's false. When they find a way to get rid of the afm, it'll be perfect. Until then it's not too bad.
In case you aren't familiar with the rtek, it's a fully programmable ecu that directly plugs in to your car. Unplug the factory ecu and plug in the new one. Simple.
Let's say a simple ecu has the ability to tune fuel only over 12 rpm points. Maybe more maybe less but the point is the same and this is just an example. That's only 12 points of control. Now lets say we have a good ecu that does everything. Lets also just say it can control over 12 rpm points. However it can also control over 12 load points too. That's 144 points of control on fuel only. Now lets say that it also does this with ignition. That's another 144 points of control. Then lets say it gives you 36 different points of ignition split control. I'm just throwing numbers out there as most ecus actually do far more than this. For the sake of example lets just add up the numbers I stated. That's 12 points of control vs 324 points. Admittedly there are points that can't be used on 3D maps as you just can't hit certain loads at certain rpms. You generally transition diagonally upwards through load and rpm points.
The point of all of this is that many who stick up for the SAFC don't completely understand that there's more to tuning that merely adjusting fuel at a certain rpm point. The SAFC is quite literally a fraction of what anything else is yet it isn't a fraction of the price. In the days before standalones and other ecu options were cheap and easy to come by, things like the SAFC and other piggybacks were the only way to go. However it's technology that is about 15-20 years behind the curve. Admittedly they do keep improving it and it's come a long way from the days when it was 5 ***** that you turned. How long do you keep trying to improve something that's obsolete though?
I think before anyone gets into ecu's, they need to do their homework. There's actually alot to be learned from tjhe Megasquirt forum when it comes to tuning and it's relevant whether you are planning to use an MS or not. It's just good info. The nice thing about an rtek or even an SAFC for that matter is that if you aren't happy with what you've done, you can change it back pretty easily. With a complete standalone you can't do this. I know some say an SAFC is something good to learn on but even an rtek is too. I'm actually not the biggest fan of the rtek since it still keeps the air flow meter. The afm robs about 10% airflow from what the engine can breathe. It's impossible to open it all the way so don't listen to those who say it's isn't a restriction based on this. That's false. When they find a way to get rid of the afm, it'll be perfect. Until then it's not too bad.
In case you aren't familiar with the rtek, it's a fully programmable ecu that directly plugs in to your car. Unplug the factory ecu and plug in the new one. Simple.
I would totally get an rtek if i didn't already have the SAFC. But it does what i need and that fine with me. When/if i ever do a turbo swap then i will for sure get a rtek, but for the n/a the safc works fine.
12-16-08 | 10:03 AM
#38
I didn't think you were defending it like that. I can't deny that the safc does do some good. It does. Yes it's limited which I'm pretty sure you know. My whole reasoning for speaking against it is for the simple fact that with todays technology, it's so easy to have so much more for so little more money. On a dollar to benefit ratio it just doesn't make any sense anymore. In the end if it does what you need it to do then that's really all that matters. My whole point of explaining things is to help those whole don't know much who are trying to make a decision. I feel it should be an educated one. There are many times when people buy something just because someone else said to without ever having researched it. In the end if someone does their homework and still feels that an safc is for them then so be it. As long as their educated on it and make a logical decision. I am admittedly pretty picky and favor doing things a certain way but it really all involves benefit per dollar spent.
12-17-08 | 06:40 PM
#40
I totally agree. I wasn't defending the SAFC like its the holy grail. Just that for simpilicity reasons and ease of use its not that bad.
I would totally get an rtek if i didn't already have the SAFC. But it does what i need and that fine with me. When/if i ever do a turbo swap then i will for sure get a rtek, but for the n/a the safc works fine.
I would totally get an rtek if i didn't already have the SAFC. But it does what i need and that fine with me. When/if i ever do a turbo swap then i will for sure get a rtek, but for the n/a the safc works fine.
05-23-09 | 11:14 AM
#42
05-23-09 | 01:27 PM
#43
Old [Sch|F]ool
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,634
Likes: 464
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
But emissions stuff is bad, because the hastily slapped together systems choked cars down in the 70's so therefore it's still bad today. Just like how fuel injection was horrible in the 50's so fuel injection is still bad today.
05-26-09 | 08:55 AM
#44
lol! That's the best justification I've heard yet for removing all of that!
I still have ALL of my emissions controls including the cat. That's actually the only one I'm open to removing with the caveat being that I can reinstall it once a year. I also still have p/s and a/c. I removed it all on my first RX-7 10+ years ago right down to the rats nest. Never again! That car was no faster than my current one but just harder to drive and live with I couldn't defrost the windows for crap and it was very hard to drive when cold.
I still have ALL of my emissions controls including the cat. That's actually the only one I'm open to removing with the caveat being that I can reinstall it once a year. I also still have p/s and a/c. I removed it all on my first RX-7 10+ years ago right down to the rats nest. Never again! That car was no faster than my current one but just harder to drive and live with I couldn't defrost the windows for crap and it was very hard to drive when cold.
05-26-09 | 05:33 PM
#45
Rotating
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 604
Likes: 6
From: New Zealand
Sell all efi gear manifold etc get a dirty ida + manifold. Scrap A/C the exhaust manifold will keep your feet warm, loose fan just rub shampoo on the inside of the windscreen to prevent fogging. S4 so alright brakes, cut the springs a coil and a half. Two cans of mattblack spray paint. $500 set of 16' mags + tyres. Holley blue fuel pump. Save some coin then bite the bullet and go for a nice bridgeport.
From NZ
From NZ
06-03-09 | 09:15 PM
#46
06-09-09 | 11:26 PM
#47
but you should probably wait until you actually have it in your possession before you assign funds to the things you're hearing about in your threads. my reasoning is there are bound to be repairs (minor or major) and of course, maintenance and safety items that will need your immediate attention.
good luck.
good luck.
. but buying coolant hoses, fuel lines, fuel filters, brake pads, smog... if you have to smog your car, it all adds up. I was planning on buying my car and going turbo, but I've spent quite a bit of money on repairing and replacing old and abused parts. Now I'm still saving up for my turboswap while having to purchase replacement parts for my car
06-17-09 | 03:16 PM
#48
mine works fine. perhaps yours wasn't done correctly or your rtek is damaged or not working correctly. Mine idles at 800rpm all the time even when it first starts. It always starts in the cold. The only time the idle changes is when the headlights, foglights , and e-fans are on at the same time. But thats pretty normal for it to dip then come back up. You can't take the IAC (or BAC or whatever) off though that's just being stupid. Its not an emissions device So I will agree with you there. The ECU nees to have this to control the idle. The ACV and all the trash that goes with it is negligable.
06-17-09 | 03:30 PM
#49
Sell all efi gear manifold etc get a dirty ida + manifold. Scrap A/C the exhaust manifold will keep your feet warm, loose fan just rub shampoo on the inside of the windscreen to prevent fogging. S4 so alright brakes, cut the springs a coil and a half. Two cans of mattblack spray paint. $500 set of 16' mags + tyres. Holley blue fuel pump. Save some coin then bite the bullet and go for a nice bridgeport.
From NZ
From NZ
Still wanna live in CA? Anyone?
I hate that state I'm so happy it's all fucked up and struggling now. They should have let those gay people get married now look where they are. Should have kept those illegal aliens out now they don't have any government money let for anything. And poor Arnold is taking the fall. Poor bastard talk about bad timing.
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