Ocho Siete

now my question is what would you use to get 450 horsepower on a 3 rotor include injectors ecu size of the ports compression ratio etc

Bryan Jacobs

iTrader: (66)

It's not that easy, and the RE-A 3 rotor FD is in the 300 class in JGTC which means it makes 300 hp not 500hp.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

http://cp_www.tripod.com/rotary/pg19.htm

mazda has sold a 450hp 3 rotor non turbo over the counter for 25 years... all you need to do is pay for it

Bryan Jacobs

iTrader: (66)

not according to the article you linked "Realistically the only option if you want a 3 rotor engine is to get a used 20B (which were a production item used in the Japanese Cosmo from 1990-1996)."

Ocho Siete

okay lemme rephrase I know what motor I need and how to get it, what I don't know is what modifications I need to do to get 450 hp I was maybe thinking rx8 rotors semi perphial ports 850cc injectors the ecu I'm not too sure about microtec lt12 maybe .....so I wanna know if its a good setup lemme know what you guys think and some any thing that could be a better choice....keep in mind that its going too be a street car with some track days that why semi pp

fritts

iTrader: (5)

450 hp will take quite a bit of effort and experimenting with exhaust, intake and ecu tuning. Not saying you will never get to it but the likelihood is low. Has anyone actually seen a dyno of a personal car actually make 450 hp on an NA PP 20b?

Not sure RX-8 rotors are necessary. Would suggest a Haltech Sport 2000 if you plan on intake valves or need the extra inputs outputs for extra devices.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

and then you rebuild it with peripheral port rotor housings from your choice of vendors.... and since we're in the 21st century you can run 9.7 rotors, the 13G is still 9.4.

its not cheap, but its pretty straightforward. and actually that appears to be what the furai has in it

the gt300 car has an intake restrictor on it, and they still claim 400hp.

Jimbo II

Judging by that engine pic they used the 20B longblock centerplates so it'll still have side intake ports. Unsure if they're 6/4 port... Maybe they just did a bridgey for fuel economy for endurance races

Ocho Siete

Racing beat claims a 450hp mazda furai thus the thread and I'm thinking rx8 rotors for a higher compression ratio I believe its like 10:1

rotaryinspired

iTrader: (3)

Rx8 rotors aren't gaining you anything. 9.7 rotors pp and the proper exhaust. If you wanna know what the big boys are running Motecs for ECU's.

bhop

iTrader: (1)

Do you want the price? Is this being done by yourself? Do you have $30,000 for someone else unless you can find cheap labor somewhere and even $30,000 is being generous and if you find something much cheaper, let me know? (LOL). This a R20B Renesis-based engine (P-ported monster) that you speak of and by no means will you want to drive it on the street... Once you get near that HP level there are no restrictions and I have a feeling that you would not dare try to drive something like that on the street, maybe once or twice....

I've seen so many forums and have found questions like these and there are very, very few people who have attempted and even fewer that have completed something almost of similarity (GMONSEN, T-von)... Do you really Know what it takes to build such an engine???

**** I was thinking of building this but a peripheral ported/street ported turbo 13b is absolutely "absurd" and mental on the street! Once you talk to some more well known shops or veterans of the "game" who actually know what they are talking about, you will have a better idea and then you should start the build thread, if you decide to?

bhop

iTrader: (1)

I like to say $20,000-$30,000 if you are paying someone else to do the work as well as including parts; as I noticed plenty of people eventually end up close to those figures with a simple 13b turbo build and others get over those figures. Considering the FAB work for a 3 rotor will be quite more extensive if you want it done right and clean.

Now you are talking about a NA 3 ROTOR build (not just your "average" 3 rotor but a R20B Renesis based engine is what you want, right????), therefore requiring more "detailed work" if you will...
More specific parts that are NOT cheap if it's done right and for those power goals. I can tell you now, that having atleast $10,000-$15,000 for the motor ALONE will help to start (considering that there are 3 rotor racing engines that go up as high as $20,000 and essentially, this is what you would be getting; you want more?).

Let me remind you that the end price will greatly depend on how resourceful you are and how much work can be done on your own. If you are doing this yourself, the price will go down "dramatically". I hope the more knowledgeable members of the forum chime in. All I'm doing is trying to feel the OP out and make sure he understands what he is getting himself into before we DIVE in haha. IMHO, I don't see you spending less than $35,000 when its all said and done. (reputable shop) For this kind of build that figure would be on the lower end of things.

Ocho Siete

I am very resouceful have had a dd 450hp turbo 2gen and did all the work myself so that's not the problem,because I plann on doing myself I'm definitly not a noob I have connections and help when I need it .so is it possible with the mods that I have listed to get 450hp on e85 yes or no I don't want people telling me its expensive belive me I know as for anyone who owns a 7. Just a simple answer and if it is a no what has to be done

fritts

iTrader: (5)

No need for E85. Go with the 87 or 89 depending on timing and knock.

Ocho Siete

E85 fort thee higher octane

fritts

iTrader: (5)

You don't need it you will not be octane limited based on on your compression.

Nick_d_TII

iTrader: (6)

20B non turbo PPort. Can't see the exhaust but if those are 13b housing and not Renesis 13bMSP housings then its not a side port exhaust either. Just a PP 20b running E100.



http://www.racingbeat.com/FRprofile.htm
No where do they say Rensis 20b.

(1) 20b Engine contact japan2la https://www.rx7club.com/members/japan2la-65053/
(3) PP 13b Housings http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda2.htm Part Number: 11021
(1) Motec ECU (or equivalent that will run 3 rotor)
Supporting Mods (fuel pump, lines, Inj.)
Fill tank (E100) Or Ethanol
Tune
Drive

Jimbo II

Yep definitely a PP. Those center plates look crust as so I wouldn't be surprised If its just a dirty mongrel 20B PP haha! Good on them.

Ocho Siete

Nice that's what im talking about now what is the the advantges of a 13bmsp and the 13b pp

GSLSE-YA

I think your going to need a full PP to get your 450HP with rx8 rotors and E85.

Not a bad setup, but your going to have to rev it to 9500rpm to get the HP out of it. Problem is that it won't be reliable unless you get the best of everything for internals. Are you looking for 450 engine HP or WHP?

Ocho Siete

450hp would be like 400whp correct me if im wrong.but thats goodfor me.as for the internals im leaning more towards als 3mm apex seals

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I saw that motor on the dyno a couple of years ago at RB. They told me (and everyone else there) exactly what was in it. There is nothing special in there and it's not a Renesis. They will definitely tell you what is in it if you ask.

*Rant mode on*

I'm going to be the blunt voice of criticism (reality) here and it's going to be offensive to the OP but quite frankly if a person doesn't know the advantages/disadvantages of running E85 vs any grade of gasoline and is wanting to do it for "the octane", then quite frankly they aren't smart enough to build or probably even afford a 20B yet alone get it installed in their car.

Second, if your plan is to use a Microtech to control a 20B, again, you don't know what you are doing and probably can't get a 20B running in your car. My guess is that this ecu is being chosen based on price which makes me assume there isn't much money which means a 20B isn't going to be affordable either.

Third, if you have to ask what it's going to take to make 450 hp out of a 20B, you don't know enough to get a 20B built and installed in your car.

If you have to ask how much fuel pressure is necessary to get that much power, then clearly you don't know anything about fuel systems and lack the knowledge and ability to design a fuel system and probably don't know how to tune it as a result. Here's a tip though. E85 and gasoline has different requirements.

I don't care who claims how much power that they had on a previous engine. I've been there too. With a turbo, it isn't hard to make lots of power. Damn near ANYONE can go fast with a turbo!!! Without one it is much harder and this is where true skill really comes into play. I'm sorry if that offends any of our turbo brethren but turbos are very good at masking even serious mistakes.

A 20B is 50% larger than a 13B but it isn't 50% more work or cost. It is nearly 500% more.

If this offends at all, kindly step away from the computer and go out and actually get a realistic grasp on what it is going to take to make that much power and a realistic expectation in terms of budget. Whatever you think it's going to cost, at a very minimum double it! You'll probably still pass it.

When you realize that I'm absolutely correct, it won't be offensive to hear anymore but will instead have been the thing that snapped you out of dreamworld and back into reality. There is a very good reason why more of us don't have this setup. That does include those of use with the know how and skill to pull it off. We see questions like this all the time and it is almost always from someone who doesn't know much yet who saw a car in a magazine or online with a larger engine who thinks it is as simple as swapping that small block Chevy for that Big Block in an '87 Camaro. Not even close! This is more akin to replacing your motor with a jet engine in terms of finances and amount of work involved. You WILL have to replace your cooling system, oil cooling system, and full exhaust at a minimum. You SHOULD change many other things while you're at it and it will cost money that you didn't account for.

Reality sucks. That's why most of us don't have these. Sorry to be so harsh but I feel this should be a sticky to those interested in 20B conversions. Some can do it. Most can't.

*Rant mode off*

Ocho Siete

Alright alot of what I said may be true, but then for what reasons are their even forums? But to ask questions.andi haver seen many post from guys like me who know enough but want some more info and to just talk about things, but then comes some asspile who thinks he knows it all and probably never even built his own car stating all this bull
crap and has absolutely no
positive feedback but instead tries to thrash a post and discourage people into building but you know what I like that because of people like you is what make people like me do things that are out of the ordinary like my sixport turbo setup running e85 on 15psi, why e85 you might ask, its because I rather pay 215 a gallon and not going to try to prove my knowledge to someone like you because honestly I have wasted enough time writing this reply
If you so happen to read this dont post on anyones elses thread unless you have somthing positive to the question because none of here were born witg this knowledge in our head,a stupid question is the one that is not asked.

fidelity101

iTrader: (11)

There is a mixture of good and bad information but a lot of misleading information.

That and I don't think you're going to do it so all of this is just speculation.

20BENZ

Whilst rotarygod may not have sugar coated it, I wouldn't be so quick as to disregard his post by labeling it as being written by:

The trick with forums is to find the useful bits of info, however they are delivered, within the mass of 'not so useful' info...

Most of what rg said is indeed, very useful info, and you are right, if you hadn't asked the question, he wouldn't have replied...

Despite the tone that this thread may have developed, I for one, consider it a win for the 'Interwebs' and rotary enthusiasts alike!