Inglorious Basterd (not the movie, but the engine build)
12-21-09, 06:32 PM
#1
Inglorious Basterd (not the movie, but the engine build)
Dont flame me... This is not a "dream" build. All the parts listed i currently own except for the SE housings. just looking for insight, not insults.
OK, so in my quest to have a decently powered NA motor for my 1/4 mile car. I have made many many changes over and over again. Im looking to build something that will not only give me the NA power im looking for, but a motor that dosnt bore me.
what i came up with:
Renesis 6 port end plates
12a center plate
GSLSE 13b housings
Renesis rotating assembly
will look like this... I think its awesome! lol...
(i dont know why its so small??? (thats what she said!!! lol)
Heres a VERY short answer on why im choosing these plates/housings: (and its not to be different)
Reni. plates - Renesis has water jacket grooves on the housings, not the plates. Just like the GSLSE and 12a have.
12a center plate - The 12a has MUCH larger runners and portability than the renesis center plate. Also has no twin side plate exhaust wich is just horrible and cant really be modded.
SE housings - The GSLSE housings have the grooves in them for water jackets as do the renesis housings. Since im removing the center exhaust by using a 12a center plate, i need something to take its place.
Reni rotating assembly - Very light rotors to start with. 10:1 compression. Beveled rotors from factory. lighter e-shaft. harder stronger stat. gears. balanced much better than previos assemblys from factory. its basically a race prepped set up already. the only real down fall is the shitty apex seals. but that can be fixed.
Now this is not ALL my reasoning, just a few of the things i like. This will be ran off of a weber carb. Ill be making my own headers and intake manifold for this. I will doing some porting, but not much porting at all. I dont believe it will be needed. sooo.... comments?
OK, so in my quest to have a decently powered NA motor for my 1/4 mile car. I have made many many changes over and over again. Im looking to build something that will not only give me the NA power im looking for, but a motor that dosnt bore me.
what i came up with:
Renesis 6 port end plates
12a center plate
GSLSE 13b housings
Renesis rotating assembly
will look like this... I think its awesome! lol...
(i dont know why its so small??? (thats what she said!!! lol)
Heres a VERY short answer on why im choosing these plates/housings: (and its not to be different)
Reni. plates - Renesis has water jacket grooves on the housings, not the plates. Just like the GSLSE and 12a have.
12a center plate - The 12a has MUCH larger runners and portability than the renesis center plate. Also has no twin side plate exhaust wich is just horrible and cant really be modded.
SE housings - The GSLSE housings have the grooves in them for water jackets as do the renesis housings. Since im removing the center exhaust by using a 12a center plate, i need something to take its place.
Reni rotating assembly - Very light rotors to start with. 10:1 compression. Beveled rotors from factory. lighter e-shaft. harder stronger stat. gears. balanced much better than previos assemblys from factory. its basically a race prepped set up already. the only real down fall is the shitty apex seals. but that can be fixed.
Now this is not ALL my reasoning, just a few of the things i like. This will be ran off of a weber carb. Ill be making my own headers and intake manifold for this. I will doing some porting, but not much porting at all. I dont believe it will be needed. sooo.... comments?
12-21-09, 10:55 PM
#3
I like the idea of having the peripheral and the side exhaust port together. I never was a fan of the whole side exhaust port idea but you cant go wrong with both. So are you going with a street port with this set up?
12-21-09, 11:28 PM
#4
for porting, im basically just going to clean up the stock ports on everything. just take away hard edges and the roughness. and see how it performs. since im pretty sure this has never been done, i dont wanna over port anything and waste a housing or rotor. plus getting a stock baseline would be nice for a reference. so the plan is to see what it does cleaned up, and see how the dyno/track likes it. from that, see where needs imporvement. Later on port to suit my needs and the motors needs... if that makes any sense.
12-21-09, 11:58 PM
#5
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I say go for it!!!
I've often wondered what an otherwise stock renesis engine could do with a peripheral exhaust of some kind. At the very least it will be an interesting exhaust manifold to fabricate.
I've often wondered what an otherwise stock renesis engine could do with a peripheral exhaust of some kind. At the very least it will be an interesting exhaust manifold to fabricate.
12-21-09, 11:59 PM
#6
sounds valid to me. i like the idea. i just think you may not make as much as you may think you should power-wise. i also think header design will be much more critical to power production. however, you have at least one person's attention, in me. 
you just have to promise me one thing: share the exhaust timing specs on the MSP housings versus the peripheral exhausts.
you just have to promise me one thing: share the exhaust timing specs on the MSP housings versus the peripheral exhausts.
12-22-09, 01:23 AM
#7
sounds valid to me. i like the idea. i just think you may not make as much as you may think you should power-wise. i also think header design will be much more critical to power production. however, you have at least one person's attention, in me.
you just have to promise me one thing: share the exhaust timing specs on the MSP housings versus the peripheral exhausts.
you just have to promise me one thing: share the exhaust timing specs on the MSP housings versus the peripheral exhausts.
i'll will be doing my best to create a very nice flowing correct length header. along with the same as the intake runners.
do you mean, you want to know the stock timing opening an closing of the renesis exhaust ports?
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12-22-09, 12:26 PM
#8
i'd never try to commit to an actual number. there are too many variables. however, i can let you in on what i think, which is this: i don't think "good" peripheral exhaust ports are a hindrance to flow or power production. as far as the Renesis is concerned, we pretty much know that they are. in combination, i have a sneaky feeling that the side port exhaust is going to alter exhaust flow in a way that detracts from your what i assumed your goals are. that's all. this is an idea i've been thinking about on and off for quite some time.
also, yes, i wanted to get open and close timing numbers on the side port exhaust. i just wanted something to compare to some of the peripheral exhaust port data out there.
also, yes, i wanted to get open and close timing numbers on the side port exhaust. i just wanted something to compare to some of the peripheral exhaust port data out there.
12-22-09, 01:36 PM
#9
The exhaust idea came to me when i was wanting to build a semi-pp bridgeport 13b. wich are some of the fastest NA and Nitrous cars out there. this is the exact same thing, just only on the exhaust. so in my little head, this could be something that suprises me and works even better than i thought... imagine a semi-pp on intake and exhaust! could be some crazy ****!
12-23-09, 10:00 AM
#11
on your second point, you're absolutely right though. this may work a whole lot better than you thought and i don't want to make it seem like i don't think it will work or that i don't want it to work because that couldn't be farther from the truth. with my previous comment, i was simply alluding to the fact that exhaust timing, wave tuning and flow are going to have to be perfect (pretty damn close) and it's probably going to entail a lot of trial and error. i just want to get on record for that in case you may have taken it the wrong way. i'm actually quite excited about your project.
12-23-09, 02:49 PM
#14
well, not exactly the same thing, but similar enough, i guess. on your second point, you're absolutely right though. this may work a whole lot better than you thought and i don't want to make it seem like i don't think it will work or that i don't want it to work because that couldn't be farther from the truth. with my previous comment, i was simply alluding to the fact that exhaust timing, wave tuning and flow are going to have to be perfect (pretty damn close) and it's probably going to entail a lot of trial and error. i just want to get on record for that in case you may have taken it the wrong way. i'm actually quite excited about your project.
on your second point, you're absolutely right though. this may work a whole lot better than you thought and i don't want to make it seem like i don't think it will work or that i don't want it to work because that couldn't be farther from the truth. with my previous comment, i was simply alluding to the fact that exhaust timing, wave tuning and flow are going to have to be perfect (pretty damn close) and it's probably going to entail a lot of trial and error. i just want to get on record for that in case you may have taken it the wrong way. i'm actually quite excited about your project.not to sure... the motor isnt going to take to long at all to get done. its finding a strait body to put it in. I have an Rx2 that this would go nice in. but the work needed to have that car track worthy is a long project in itself. and i have an FC thats basically ready. i just dont want to pull that heavy car without turbo. so im searching for a clean 1st gen. wich can be hard in Orlando area...
thats the plan... but i kinda want to see what the motor does unported. since this has never been done (to my knowledge) i dont know what the outcome will be. so im looking for a baseline and seeing what kinda of power and power band it produces.
I also thought about using renesis 4 port plates and bridging them along with the semi-pp intake and exhaust! ha!
12-23-09, 08:06 PM
#15
one other thing i been tossing around in my head for a few years is turning the Renesis 6 port pleates into 4 port. Using the same principle as PP, kinda... since the 4 port renesis plates are basically useless. I know this cause i experimneted with them already wasting a perfectly good plate in doing this. but 4 ports have been proven to be better than 6 ports, so this is what got me going.
I have looked it the 6 port plates very thoroughly, and i dont see why this wouldnt work:
I would completely fill in the auxially (5th/6th) ports with either JBweld or Devcon. Both should work just fine. then port the secondarys as it were a 4 port motor. and thats basically it. making the room for porting almost endless. the reason you cannot do this on the 4 port is you'll hit water. heres a basic picture for a visual...
side note: this has been done many times with earlier 13b 6 ports. i dont see why the renesis would be any different.
I have looked it the 6 port plates very thoroughly, and i dont see why this wouldnt work:
I would completely fill in the auxially (5th/6th) ports with either JBweld or Devcon. Both should work just fine. then port the secondarys as it were a 4 port motor. and thats basically it. making the room for porting almost endless. the reason you cannot do this on the 4 port is you'll hit water. heres a basic picture for a visual...
side note: this has been done many times with earlier 13b 6 ports. i dont see why the renesis would be any different.
12-23-09, 08:47 PM
#17
^ The four port concept should work out fine. And regarding the renesis side port exhaust, if you have problems with the extra exhaust ports not working, then all you would have to do is block them off from the outside with a couple plates and just use the pport exhaust.
12-23-09, 10:25 PM
#20
The reason i post all my little ideas, it helps me to completely think out what im doing. and for others to point out obvious flaws that im looking over. so far, no one has flamed me... so i guess my idea isnt to bad. lol... i pretty much know that everything posted above will infact work, how well is the question. but theres one thing that im not 100% on. rotor choice, heres why...
Renesis rotors vs. 9.7 rotors
the renesis rotors have a few benefits. high comp ratio, better balancing, lighter, beveled edges, ect... but, the side seal sealing factor comes into play. And most have lost power when switching to Renesis rotors due to this. The rotors also need to be machined to fit earlier style rx7 apex seals. I would not want to put a lot of time/money into these rotrs for them to be a bad choice.
so why dont i just use the 9.7 rotors? heres why... I am using a mixture of peripheral exhaust and side exhaust. and since using earlier 13b rotors such as these, has been used in a renesis motor already. i know the effects. according to one persons finding the oil control rings wear fast due to the lack of the cut off seal that is in between the side seals and the oil control rings protecting the oil control rings from direct heat. and also pre-mature side seal wear. but thats no biggie since i always bevel the closing edge of the port wich takes care of that. so..... even though it hasnt been successfully done before, the variables were completely different. His was a turbo motor running i think between 100-105 octane gas. My motor will be all motor running E85. I will be using a mixture of side exhaust ports and peripheral exhaust ports. Not just side exhaust ports alone. Thats motor was also used for auto-x and daily driving. Mine will be trailored to the track and ran down the 1/4 and 1/8 mile. So with all these different factors. I am thinking that i can infact use the 9.7 rotors.
So, to take the risk and use the Rx8 rotors with its pros and cons?
-or-
use whats proven, but has its one problem... that might not even be a problem?
ehhh.... choices, choices, choices...
Renesis rotors vs. 9.7 rotors
the renesis rotors have a few benefits. high comp ratio, better balancing, lighter, beveled edges, ect... but, the side seal sealing factor comes into play. And most have lost power when switching to Renesis rotors due to this. The rotors also need to be machined to fit earlier style rx7 apex seals. I would not want to put a lot of time/money into these rotrs for them to be a bad choice.
so why dont i just use the 9.7 rotors? heres why... I am using a mixture of peripheral exhaust and side exhaust. and since using earlier 13b rotors such as these, has been used in a renesis motor already. i know the effects. according to one persons finding the oil control rings wear fast due to the lack of the cut off seal that is in between the side seals and the oil control rings protecting the oil control rings from direct heat. and also pre-mature side seal wear. but thats no biggie since i always bevel the closing edge of the port wich takes care of that. so..... even though it hasnt been successfully done before, the variables were completely different. His was a turbo motor running i think between 100-105 octane gas. My motor will be all motor running E85. I will be using a mixture of side exhaust ports and peripheral exhaust ports. Not just side exhaust ports alone. Thats motor was also used for auto-x and daily driving. Mine will be trailored to the track and ran down the 1/4 and 1/8 mile. So with all these different factors. I am thinking that i can infact use the 9.7 rotors.
So, to take the risk and use the Rx8 rotors with its pros and cons?
-or-
use whats proven, but has its one problem... that might not even be a problem?
ehhh.... choices, choices, choices...
12-24-09, 01:24 PM
#21
I don't think running e85 on a N/A motor is a good idea. N/A motors do not need the high octane numbers in e85 and you will probably loose power in using it. You will make more power with regular pump 91 octane or a lower octane race fuel with oxygen content like vp 100 or ms 109. But I haven't heard any results from E85 with n/a motors so I don't know for sure, but I'm just going on what I know with higher ocatane fuel in N/a motors. I guess you can be the guinea pig for several things on this project. 
12-24-09, 01:28 PM
#22
I dont know if you've seen this, but Paul Lamar and the guys at rotarteng.net did the exact opposite of your motor with great results: Peripheral port intake, Renesis side port exhaust. With extremely long intake runners to get the low end they want in an airplane, They managed amost 200 ft/lb of torque and over 260 hp! Unfortunately, they took the dyno videos off of their site, but here is a shot of the dyno graph. Also, here is a link to a thread discussing it in the RX8Club forum: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=133479
12-24-09, 01:44 PM
#23
I don't think running e85 on a N/A motor is a good idea. N/A motors do not need the high octane numbers in e85 and you will probably loose power in using it. You will make more power with regular pump 91 octane or a lower octane race fuel with oxygen content like vp 100 or ms 109. But I haven't heard any results from E85 with n/a motors so I don't know for sure, but I'm just going on what I know with higher ocatane fuel in N/a motors. I guess you can be the guinea pig for several things on this project.
12-24-09, 02:12 PM
#24
I don't think running e85 on a N/A motor is a good idea. N/A motors do not need the high octane numbers in e85 and you will probably loose power in using it. You will make more power with regular pump 91 octane or a lower octane race fuel with oxygen content like vp 100 or ms 109. But I haven't heard any results from E85 with n/a motors so I don't know for sure, but I'm just going on what I know with higher ocatane fuel in N/a motors. I guess you can be the guinea pig for several things on this project.
E85... better for boost, better for all motor, and the best thing to happen to a rotary since the turbo!
12-24-09, 02:24 PM
#25
I dont know if you've seen this, but Paul Lamar and the guys at rotarteng.net did the exact opposite of your motor with great results: Peripheral port intake, Renesis side port exhaust. With extremely long intake runners to get the low end they want in an airplane, They managed amost 200 ft/lb of torque and over 260 hp! Unfortunately, they took the dyno videos off of their site, but here is a shot of the dyno graph. Also, here is a link to a thread discussing it in the RX8Club forum: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=133479