RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys,

I've kind of hit a pot hole in my modification journey. I have a S5 TII with a nice list of mods (Link Here) and I'm looking to safely make somewhere between 350-400whp on pump gas, with the ability to make between 400-500 on race gas. I currently have around 310whp on pump gas.

I have very limited funding (poor college student now), so please keep that in mind.

My problem is this:

I have been told by several people that my car is ready to be taken to that power level (safely) but I need to do a couple things. They include:

- Get a Wideband O2 Sensor for the MegaSquirt EMS (the dyno I use to tune it already has a wideband O2 sensor.. but supposedly the MS needs it to work properly?).
- Get some sort of Ignition Control system; some sort of system that can change timing degrees based on RPM or Boost Pressure. I have an old version of the MS that does not include the Ignition Control (It uses the stock ECU for Ignition). I was told, if I can get my hands on one, the old Apexi SITC piggyback ignition controller would be a good choice.

For those of you who know about the Megasquirt (I am still very much a noob when it comes to how it works) are there any wideband O2 sensors that the MS can talk to? Supposedly all I need is the sensor itself, no other controller devices that usually come with widebands (such as Zetronix). What all sensors does the MS need to get a good, safe, accurate tune? EGT? Intake Temp? Wideband? What else?

Are there any other options for igniton control? I've been told i'm basically screwd and I need to either get the Megasquirt N' Spark system, or another ECU (such as the Haltech E6K). Unless maybe I could get my hands on the SITC.

Help!!!! Anything you can provide me with would be greatly appreciated. If you have any more questions concearning work ive done and other technicalities feel free to ask and I will respond ASAP.

-Andrew

Cybaster

Sorry, i didn't read completely about the old MS...

RETed

I think you're kidding yourself about hitting those numbers...safely.

You have no idea what the capabilities of the MS you own.
That's just downright dangerous.
You make it sound trivial to hit numbers like that - it's not.

Learn the capabilities of the MS first before asking questions like this.
You won't understand the answers are it stands now.

Second, CHEAP WILL BITE YOU IN THE ***.
If you want to tackle this project, get lots of money and then have even more money "just in case".
Your Tial 40mm WG is too small.
The Turbonetics 60-1 will have trouble hitting those numbers unless we're talking ungodly amounts of boost - i.e. race gas.
The Walbro is too small to safely support power levels you're talking about.


-Ted

BklynRX7

Im no pro at all but im pretty sure the MS only needs a wideband for auto/self tuning. if your tuning it on a dyno with a wideband theres no need for one to be hooked up all the time. Second of all most wideband kits have an additional output just for an ems.

Third of all, listen to Ted.

BoostedRex

I'll have to admit that Ted makes a great point.
Hitting those kinds of numbers isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. And taking the cheaper route to get there will result in a blown motor.

Now I don't personally sell all of the gear you need to do this project right, but if you want I can hook you up with the shops that do. And I know I can get you better prices than you'd normally find on most things. As per usual, just drop me a PM and let me know what you need. I will help out where I can. And keep your head up because you will eventually hit the numbers you are wanting.

Zach

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

I understand completely what it takes to hit those kinds of numbers.

Please don't insult my intelligence. I am perfectly capable of understanding any responses you can give me.

Yeah, I know. There are very few things on my mods list that are "cheap." I've spent over $10,000 in modifications up to this point. I think this MS might be the only thing on my list I may regret, hence why I made this thread.

Its worked fine for me up to this point, and is perfectly capable of flowing the amount of boost/exhaust I'm looking at.

I disagree. I hit 310whp at over A MILE in altitude on 9PSI of boost, with an estimated 360whp on PUMP GAS at sea level. At those numbers, tell me why you think that turbo and my engine would have problems getting to 15-20psi and 350-375whp at this altitude or 400-425 at sea level on pump gas?

I know people personally who have made 450+ on my fuel pump (safely). Now are you going to tell me 1600cc injectors are too small?

I've done my research and prepared for this power output. You know what you're talking about, and i've talked to you about it plenty. I am asking questions about the Megasquirt ECU and Ignition Control, so please address those issues which I stated in my original post. I have plently of experianced rotary guys around me IRL that know the capabilities of my setup that have helped me along the way.

BklynRX7> Thanks for your input. I've heard that same thing from a few people, so I think i'm just gonna save myself the trouble and stick with the Dyno's Wideband.

BoostedRex> Thank you, I won't hesitate to go through you for parts.

-Andrew

The Griffin

Am I missing something? a 60-1 should be able to make 350-400 rwhp at a little over 1bar on pump gas,although 400 may be a stretch.But it depends on other factors also.

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Yeah man, Turbonetics claims that the turbo I have is easily capable of 500-600whp.. so I dont see why 400-450 is such a long shot.

See my last post for those of you who are keeping up with the thread and trying to help me out.

-Andrew

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

... Why was this moved to the Megasquirt Forum? I'll say goodbye to replys....

The Griffin

Which version of MS do you have? Is it a version 2.2 board or the older (original) V1.0 board? I'm not sure about the V1.0 board but you can get the V2.2 board to do ignition.What you need is one of error*'s daughter boards or if you have some electronics skills you can make up the ignition circuit on a breadboard.There is also a couple of minor board mods to use the 3 Led's as ignition outputs .The other thing you will need to do is flash the firmware with MS'n S-E code(megasquirt and spark extra code) to use the ignition side.

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

I'm pretty sure its a V2.2 board, but i'm checking on that now...

I've been told I may have a "problem" since right now the MS is wired through the factory ECU. Supposedly i'm setup right now to have the factory ECU used only for ignition, while everything else is controlled by the MS. By stopping using the ECU as the ignition controller and using the MS instead, would that mean that i'd have to rewire everything to the factory wire harness and get rid of the ECU all together? Is there any way to just keep it wired like it is already (through the factory ECU) and just "turn off" the ignition part, so that the factory ECU is just kind of a "passageway" from the MS to the factory wiring harness? I'd like to avoid cutting the stock wiring harness if at all possible...

And is there any other hardware or sensors I need to control ignition, or is it just software and wires?

Thanks for the help.

-Andrew

The Griffin

You'll have to add some more info on your setup.But if the MS is separate in it's own case then the easiest way is to build an adaptor harness for the stock wiring harness by canibalizing a S5 N/A ecu for the connector.For an S5 though you will lose a few things,the biggest are,OMP control (have to premix) and BAC control (unless you mod the board with the correct Transistor to use the stock BAC valve).The other ones you can live without,2 stage fuel pump voltage,S5 TII wastegate solenoid,and fuel press. reg. solenoid function.

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

I'll try and get some pictures of the way its setup right now... Not sure what you mean about the connector though.

I don't have an OMP or BAC valve.

What does it mean to not have the 2 stage fuel pump voltage? Does it have that stock? Is there any way to keep it or set up to keep it if it has performance advantages? I have a tial 40mm wastegate, so i'm sure the solenoid is gone.... And what does it mean to lose the FPR solenoid? Do I need something to replace it as well?

Thanks for your help Griffin.

-Andrew

papiogxl

iTrader: (6)

the fpr solenoid switches the FPR ref. vacuum to atm for warm start ups i believe. The 2 stage voltage is so at low load it has a lower voltage and at high load it gets full voltage. This is not entirely necesary, but it does help with the current draw from the alternator at idle.

The Griffin

The connector(ECU female) is so you can make the MS plug'n play with your stock harness otherwise you would need to make complete harness or cut the stock one.N/A S5 "N351" ecu's use the same connectors and easier to come by then the turbo S5 "N370".


You are set then .

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Would it help that I have two S5 TII ECUs? One is all hacked up with the MS installed, and the other is the stock unadulterated one that came with the car.

-Andrew

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

... Anyone else have any input? I knew this thread was going to die as soon as the mods moved it.

The Griffin

Without seeing how the MS was connected/wired and how the stock ecu was modified,it's kind of hard to offer suggestion.A logical option is to modify the MS you have to do the igniton and cut the connector off your hacked up ecu and make an adaptor harness to fit the stock ecu harness and the MS.I can't see ditching the stock hacked ecu altogether as a great loss since its only controling the ignition and maybe the fuelpump at the low/high voltage and you already disabled the OMP and BAC.

How did you get around the stock ecu going into limp mode with removing the OMP? I'm under the impression that the limp mode also alters the ignition.Did you take it off and leave it plugged into the harness in the engine bay?

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Exactly.

I have taken pictures but Im having troubles getting them to work, so here's a simple diagram of how its setup until I can get real pictures:



Thanks!

renns

Sounds exactly like how I set up my old S4 back in 2002 (see attached pic below).



If you want to add ignition control to your V2.2 piggy-back setup, you're going to have two issues:

1.) MS decoding of stock or modified CAS
At present in fuel-only mode, the stock ecu does the CAS wheel decoding, and you are likely just using the coil for triggering. To go to full standalone mode, you need to modify the MS box to handle the CAS wheel decoding. Unfortunately, the older V2.2 board you have does not have any built-in VR sensor signal conditioning circuitry, so you need to build extra circuits from scratch (LM1815 circuit or equivalent), or add the "error*" daughterboard.
2.) Modification of board for spark outputs
You'll need to add pull-up resistors, and add wires to provide the spark signals from the three board-mounted led's out to the coil packs.

If you want to keep the stock ecu case in place for whatever reason, you could just continue to cut away at the pins inside, and run patch wires out to the MS similar to what has already been done. You really only need a half-dozen or so extra wires (2 vr +ve, vr ground, IgT-T, IgS-T, IgT-L are all that come to mind at the moment).

As is obvious from reading this post, MS, while being a very capable system, is also very much in the 'DIY' category. It can do just about anything you can dream of, but if you move beyond fuel-only mode, hardware and firmware mods are almost always required. The newer V3.0 board minimizes this work (see the V3.0 build thread), and you may want to consider upgrading to that board rather than do the mods required to your V2.2 setup.

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

First of all, thanks for your explanation. That clears up a lot.

Second, if I was to get the V3.0 board, would that mean I'd have to rewire everything? Do I just buy the board itself? My problem is this: I bought my MS already fully wired. All I had to do was unplug my old ECU and plug this one in (basically) so in reality doing any of this wiring would be a new thing for me.

I'd love to do all the work myself, but the fact is I just dont trust myself working on precision electronics like this. The more help you guys can give me the more confident i'd feel diving head first into this project.

-Andrew

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Well, I bought an Apex'I SITC. The guy I bought the Megasquirt from said that he used one with his and they worked perfectly together and are prefectly capable of the power levels Im going for.

Thanks to everyone who contributed constructive advice (esp. renns and Griffin). Ill try and let you know how it goes.

-Andrew

renns

If I were you, I'd build a V3.0 kit to get familiar with the hardware. Then do the board modifications as outlined in that V3.0 build thread, and knock two teeth off the lower wheel in your CAS. This eliminates the need for the upper VR sensor, and simplifies the install considerably. What remains is to get the ignition and CAS signals from the stock harness/ecu into the MS. This is not a complete re-wiring job, but just the addition of a few wires between the MS DB37 connector and your stock ECU.

There are many people that have built MS with little or no prior electronics experience. Get on the msefi forum, and print/read through the build instructions at megasquirt.info. Once you've successfully built and tested your own MS, you'll have the knowledge/skills to modify and repair your unit for years to come. Buy it outright, and you're no brighter than the next guy...

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

if my camaro buddies can build 600whp cars with a walbro fuel pump, I don't see why a 350whp rotary can't use one.

The Griffin

Pump flow is dependent on the pressure it's operating at.On a boosted rotary though the "waldo or whinboro" is good to about 380whp.