I want to get one for my 2nd gen.

Will it work with cas or it needs a crank gear wheel to read rpms?
Will it show real time ignition timing on windows software?
all i will need is a gm 3 bar map sensor to make megasquirt work on rx7? thx..

 

ms 3 v 2.2? i think thats what you want. gotta modify your cas to make it work. cut off 2 opposing teeth on the lower set. it shows real time ignition and it has a map sensor built into the board.

p.s. this will probably get moved to the ms section real quick

 

the 2 big top teeth?

 

i dont think they make ms 3, im getting ms1 v2.2

 

<*sigh*>

Search.

Go over to the megasquirt sub-forum on the board and read the FAQ. I'll give you a teaser - you can (and should for several reasons) use an unmodded CAS.

 

is it hard to remove 2 teeth?

 

you dont need to remove any teeth.


also, you need to do allot more research.

 

I've had a Megasquirt for several years and like it. I do have to ask a couple of questions though as how you answer these will determine if you are ultimately happy with it.

1. Do you know how to tune an ecu from scratch on your own without any outside help or advice?

2. Do you know how to improvise through a situation, specifically a computer related one, when instructions are vague and unclear?

3. Do you intend to build it or buy it?

4. Can you wire up an ecu from scratch?

If you answered yes to number 1, you're on your way. If you said no, do not buy it. Don't purchase an MS, or any other ecu for that matter, and rely on the fact that you'll miraculously borrow someone else's map and have a good running car. It WILL NOT HAPPEN! Don't pretend it will. You need to absolutely completely understand tuning philosophy including rotary split and why it works the way it does.

If you answered yes to number 2, there's hope. The instructions on how to download the software necessary to tune an MS and how to actually get it to work are vague at best. It's really not as easy as looking through the forums for your answer although you'd think it would be. The software is constantly updated as well. Ultimately everything you need to know is written somewhere. It's just not all in the same place and unclear when you do find it. It will take time and effort to figure it all out. It's not impossible. Just not easy. If you answered no to this question, look elsewhere. I'd suggest stock!

If you intend to buy it, don't. Forget you've ever heard of it. The only way I'd recommend an MS is if you intend to build it yourself. The reason is that by the time you get it installed in the car, you understand how and why things work the way they do and if something goes wrong, it's not going to be hard to fix it. If that ecu is intended to be used by people who intend to buy it, it needs to be simple to load the software. It's not though. Build it or look elsewhere.

Finally number 4. This really ties in with number 3 but I am keeping it separate anyways. The reason being that I don't like making an adapter and using the factory wiring harness. It's probably old and cracked and shouldn't be touched by anyone. I know it works fine on the stock ecu (or maybe it doesn't), but there have been many that I've seen that have caused ignition issues from noise and bad grounding. They cause trouble more often than they don't. Rewire it from scratch or don't do it.

Now the good parts. If you get past all of the issues of even getting to the point of getting the car to start, tuning it is pretty straight forward. The key to this being of course that you understand how to tune and why you do things the way you do. You will have to build a map from scratch. Using someone else's map isn't usually as easy as downloading theirs and then sending it to your ecu. There's a high probability that you'll have a different version of the software and it won't be compatible. The only thing you can do is to manually load everything in based on what you see on your screen. Just copy it. Keep in mind I've seen more maps that are complete crap than I have seen that appeared to be good. There are some nice ones though but they are typically created by people who have done it for a while who know what they are doing.

The worst thing you can do is to think you can do it with no knowledge and just rely on the work of the more experienced to make it work for you. Don't even try. You won't.

I have an MS and like it. However I want to scare you away from it. Why? It may be cheap but there's a price and it comes in the form of initially being very difficult to get to work. I've seen too many people take shortcuts in the name of time and money savings which ironically takes more time in the longrun and costs more. Go figure. You need to completely understand that this isn't some afternoon thing. Your car will be down a full day if you absolutely 100% know what you are doing and even then it'll be down longer to tune it. If you are doing this as a first experience in the ecu world, you'll be without a car for a week if you're lucky but probably much much longer as you'll get frustrated and want to throw the whole thing away. You might get lucky though.

From the questions you asked, I personally don't think you are ready to buy one. You need to do more homework. I didn't use a GM map sensor or any other sensor. I used all stock. Others recommend against it. They were already on the engine though. I had to recalibrate them with additional software which was a pain to figure out. I integrated a Ford TPS onto a modified 2nd gen Throttlebody. It involved custom work as it doesn't just bolt right on. I also built mine from scratch and wired the harness up one at a time from scratch. I didn't even take the easy way out and buy a harness! All stock wiring was removed. Since mine was a v1, I had to do additional things to make it all work that is easier on the V2. Yes everything is viewable in realtime 3D. This is what is nice about it.

My advice is to do much more homework. Become an ecu expert before you even attempt this. It's relatively cheap for the ecu but with everything else you'll need it can add up. It's not easy though. There have been many people that have done it successfully and love it. However there have been just as many who haven't had good luck. A local guy here comes to mind. He did everything wrong with it but that's also the trend with his entire car. It never worked properly and he put the stock ecu back on. What a waste! All it took was some homework. You may be capable of doing it. I'm not saying you can't. I do want you to be absolutely sure what you're getting into though.

You might consider an rtek. At $400 it's really no more expensive than an MS will turn out to be. It comes tuned with your stock map so you can always default at that and you know the car will run right off the bat. They are also working on the afm elimination and are about to begin beta testing of it in the real world. My first gen is my car with the MS but my second gen which is 100% stock may end up with an rtek simply because it will plug right in and run and do what I want it to. The afm is my only current gripe but that's soon to be gone.

 

i dont have to map it from scratch, there are lots you can get and load.

 

There are a lot of starter maps out there but the best case senerio using a one is the car starts up. You are not going to have anything that is close acceptable by using a map from a different car. Every engine is different. I would download Megatune and look around at all of the features. If you understand what each of the menus is for, then it might be a good fit for you. Rotarygod is right, it takes hours and hours to get it running smoothly.

 

You need to be able to just look at one of those maps and know if it will work. There are lots of crap maps out there. There are lots of mediocre maps out there. There are a few nice ones out there. Each is setup for their engine with their mods. Too many times we've seen people install carbs on their cars and when they didn't run properly they proclaimed the setup a failure when the reality was that they didn't bother to do any jetting or tuning but rather run it the way someone else told them to. You absolutely MUST be capable of creating your own map from scratch if need be. This requires a thorough understanding of how ecu tuning works and why it works that way. Fortunately you can learn much of it by doing your homework. Experience will fill in the gaps. If you are relying on other people's maps to make your car run, you will be dissappointed in the results.

A couple of years ago I spent alot of time helping a local guy with a Megasquirt. He didn't do his homework but knew it was cheap and that it could do things. He needed my "help". That simple little amount of help I was supposed to do turned into completely rewiring his car from scratch since the stock wiring had so much noise in it that we couldn't make the adapter work. This took time that I didn't have. He didn't know how to wire a car and didn't even take the time to try to learn. Guess who had to? Me! It took me months to get it done because I never had time to work on other people's cars. Meanwhile I'm being blamed by his dad because his car won't run. My advice was never taken. The same attitude was prevalent. "I don't need to..." I said I'd get the MS installed and a very basic map loaded but that he would have to learn how to tune it himself. That was as far as I'd go. The owner needed to learn something.

I finally got it done. Got the car running. It needed work. Dad was happy that I got it moving. What happened with that car? After failing to get it to run good, since the owner didn't want to do his homework but instead attempt to ride on the success of others, he became frustrated and sold that car due entirely to the fact that MS "didn't work well". He now drives a Honda that someone had already built and modified and made work. BTW: He's a member of this forum! The current owner of the car is also having MS issues claiming it sucks when the truth is he too has no idea what he's doing or how to tune an ecu. Apparently using someone else's map isn't working out too good. He hasn't given up though and I hope he gets it figured out. After my experience with helping others with their MS, I'm not inclined to do it again.

I've seen the same basic scenario over and over again. Everyone thinks the same thing and everyone that feels this way fails. Do your homework and learn all you can ahead of time. That way your frustration will only be over a matter of days or weeks rather than months or years. You aren't going to have a good running car relying solely on others if you don't understand why they work that way so don't try. Learn it or don't do it but don't think copying others is going to work out. It won't.

 

agreed.

it is the ms1 v2.2 and you either have to modify the cas or build a daughter board. either way..

i tried it. i even had a friend that is very successful with his ms spend hours upon hours to help me. my car at its best was slightly better than the stock system. after having a board burn up on me and take out my motor, i built another one and i could never get the cas signal clean enough to run without tach bounce. even with spending days re routing wires trying different shielded wires and becoming intimate with the pots. it blew my second motor before i even got to tune. now im on haltech and its much different. i wish haltech was windows based like ms but i like it better otherwise but its just cause i dont have the patience for ms.

 

Rotary God is right. The exception is that I learned to tune with the megasquirt. However I did around 6 months of research before even buying mine, and it took 2 days for the car to run to the point of being able to move on its own power well enough to drive. Over the last 3 years I have learned the intimate details and made changes to my liking. The car runs like a champ and is more reliable than any fc I have seen, never floods, always starts, smooth as butter. There are a lot of features on the ms that will be a lot to figure out. Just the injector staging can screw with your brain. However, I am a perfectionist, and **** about a smooth running drivable car. Read the manual, read it again, and when you are done, read it another time. when you are sure you understand things, then you can start work.
The research I did wasn't just megasquirt based. I did research on injector combination, ignition timing limits/ curves. I also took a look at maps from not only megasquirt, but haltech, power fc, wolf 3d. I wanted to know where the limits of safety lie before I got to far.
Rotary God is also right about another thing: There are a lot of crappy maps out there, and every engine is different. Injector combination, manifold design, compression ratio, engine compression, weather you have high or low impedence injectors, type of cas set up, fuel pressure, type of fuel. This all makes a difference when you get down to it.


Anyways, I've said my piece, you get the picture I hope.

 

I agree on the maps. The MSs I've sold I sell with settings pre-loaded that should get the engine started, and then run super-rich with not quite enough timing. I purposely do this so that the user is forced to tune the engine properly. I also don't give out msq's for this reason. You *need* to tune yourself, and if you don't understand tuning, don't install a standalone.

That said, the first rx7 to run megasquirt on the stock ignition was the first megasquirt I ever installed, and the first engine I ever tuned. Before the owner wrecked it, we had it running very well. I never intended to do an install on the rx7, I had actually bought a MS v2.2 just to mess around with it on the bench. The end result of that is that I had about 6 months of reading and learning under my belt before I ever considered installing it anywhere.

I'm not sure I *quite* agree on the documentation. Most of what you need is in the FAQ, and if it's not there, I'll be working on getting it there shortly. James (the other ms2/extra developer) and I are also going to focus on getting all the official documentation up-to-date and cleaned up as part of the upcoming ms2/extra 2.1.0 release, so soon you'll be able to find all the necessary info there.

Ken

 

I really think the FAQ should include a step by step manual on how to do everything. Make it as clear as possible. Start your computer. Go to ___. Open screen X and so forth and so on. For X value enter ___. You get the idea. It also needs to be updated anytime a new version of Megatune comes out. I don't find this clear at all. The hardest part is getting the software loaded onto the computer. It needs to read like stereo instructions.

 

Rotary God where would be good places to do research on tuning in general not just MS?

 

Searching through all of the various ems forums is a start. Books are a very good source. You can find books on carb tuning and various other generic ecu tuning systems. The fundamental information is the same. It's about getting a certain amount of fuel into the engine with a certain amount of timing. There's just a lot of tech info to read up on. It's not quite as simple as finding something that says "the complete guide to fuel and ignition tuning" although maybe someone should write one. Looking at other people's maps and trying to see trends helps too. The short answer is that it's not something you will learn quickly. The fundamentals are what's important. It's fine tuning and other little things that are where experience will take over and what will separate a merely good map from a great one. It's not too hard to learn basic fundamentals and get a decent tune with some trial and error. Dialing it in really well isn't something the beginner will be able to do though. They can learn it but it may take some time. Fortunately after you start doing it and seeing how things work in the real world, the learning curve starts going up pretty fast. It's getting to that point that's hard.

Do some homework on learning how to read a wideband a/f gauge and what it all means. Also learn about exhaust gas temperatures and how a/f ratios effect them. These should give you a few places to search to start learning. I encourage everyone to learn how to tune an engine. It's fascinating and fun. I don't encourage anyone to just use someone else's work with no understanding of why something was done that way. They'll never know how to change, correct, or improve things.

Head off to the bookstore and read for a while. I actually do that quite often.

 

Thanks for the help? Headingto the bookstore! Oh yeah any book you recomend for starters since you do it often? Cool

 

Got back from bookstore and picked up " How to tune and modify Engine management systems". We'll see

 

I'll take that into consideration when I get a chance to rewrite the existing FAQ.

Ken

 

Ken, this is probably not the place to list this but since we are talking about making the instructions clearer......when I installed my software, I did so on my D-drive. My C-drive is the Windows backup drive. The copy *.ini stuff did not work. It kept saying that the Megatune software was not installed. I had to rewrite the *.bat code to direct it to look in the D-drive and to place the copied files into the d-drive.

This could have been easier or at least some mention of it somewhere. Just sayin...

 

I never use that .bat file honestly. I just copy the ini file manually. I can talk to James about modding that script to ask the user for a drive letter though.

 

That would make things much easier. It's been so long since I've played with mine, I'm not even sure I could go back and do it again if I had to start from scratch. I'd definitely have to do my homework. You remember how many times I was on the phone with you when I did Brad's car. That was after I'd already done it before too!!!

I think specific instructions would be nice if there are differences between each version such as V1 instructions, V2.2, MSII, etc... At least a supplemental that describes the differences as well as which files to load for each.

While I do think it needs to read like stereo instructions, I draw the line when it comes to tuning. Obviously I don't think you should provide maps for people but rather say, "to adjust amount of fuel, do ___" and "to adjust ignition timing do ___". You of course will need a big disclaimer so when someone blows their engine up they can't blame the instructions. I'd even include a basic tuning guide that would help people get started. Basically teaching the fundamentals and providing some helpful tips. I know it's alot of work but it would help many people out greatly. There are just too many people that try to use an MS that fail. It really all goes back to how hard it is to find the needed info. If instructions were this clear, there's not much excuse for not being able to make one work. I actually think tuning is the easy part. It's getting there that's hard!

 

It'll probably be a while before I can sit down and go through the steps in that much detail, maybe with screenshots, etc...

I'm trying to get MS2/extra 2.1.0 done, and trying to get started on MS3/MegaEMS at the same time.

I'm committed to getting it done though.

Ken

 

I picked up a good book on the basics of tuning. I believe its called " How to install and tune engine management systems." Don't be fooled by the Focus on the cover...